What would you do?

[olgaolga-123]

What would you do in my place? I sold a sweater to a buyer from UK. It was in pristine condition. The buyer asked me to declare a lower value on the parcel, which I refused to do. He asked me several times about it. Today I got an e-mail from him. Here it is:

I had to pay and excess of $20 as the improper amount of postage was paid at your end.

It baffles me. Why US and Canada fail to understand, that when you post pre owned goods- not new, you don't pay the same charges or declare the same as a NEW item.

I expect a refund. And- the jumper is dirty- dog hairs- I suspect a spaniel

The postage declared is the same I quoted  him before he paid for the purchase. We do not have the dog and I inspected the sweater myself, it was in clean, no flaws condition. It seems he tries to get the refund for the duties he paid, claiming the sweater was dirty. What would you do?

[mr.elmwood]

In the UK, they get hit with VAT on the TOTAL of the item plus postage. Double hit.

I have had several requests over the years for a lower declared value. Each time I lowered the value to assist the customer.

Why refuse? It has nothing to do with you? It is their Customs, their country, their laws, their rules. It is NOT our law.

I dare you to find a definitive definition for "declared value". The best I have ever found is that is the limit for carrier liability. Declared value is not rooted in the selling price. It can be anything.

You angered the buyer. I would not have done that. Offer "return for refund".

Do not get in a discussion, as, how well has that gone so far?

[olgaolga-123]

I have not answered anything yet. Trying to see what is the best way to deal with it. Thank you for the reply.

[olgaolga-123]

I do not lower the value and I told him so from the very start.

[mr.elmwood]

I see where this is going. They want purchase price + shipping + VAT paid.

"return for refund"

wash-rinse-repeat

[ricarmic]

In my opinion it depends on what you want to achieve.

If you want to try to preserve your DSRs/defects etc, then I would engage them as little as possible. Usually I try to get the buyer to go for a partial refund, and I always leave it up to them to decide the amount of the refund (this puts them in "control" of the resolution which I find helps - if they pick an unreasonable level of partial refund I refund as they suggested and block them from further purchases a while later - do not block them immediately, wait until after they leave feedback and/or the 90 days has gone by). I don't know what your margins are and how much you can afford to "lose" in a partial refund situation.

Note depending on how the buyer contacted you you might already have been "defected" so that may also change your approach although visible negatives or neutrals can have an unpleasant effect as well.

In my opinion your "job" at this point is to try to minimize the damage from a problem buyer, it does not matter at all if they are wrong, or dishonest, or even if they are purposefully trying to burn you for whatever reason, you have to think of this from a business perspective and not a personal one, as hard as that is for us all.....

[pjcdn2005]

You did declare the amount that the buyer paid...correct? Every once in a while I hear about a seller who declared the original retail of the item instead so that's why I am asking.

First... I would report the buyer and follow up with a phone call after the weekend.

http://spd.ebay.com/RBASellerHub?query=1562&issue=104

It really is against ebay policy for a buyer to request that.

I assume that you didn't pay the wrong amount of postage but that the buyer is complaining about customs fees. I would politely explain the correct amount of postage was paid

so the extra charge would have been for VAT and a service charge from the postal service for collecting those taxes. I'm sure he already knows that but I would let him know that you realize it as well.

You could also mention that ebay rules do state that sellers are not allowed to falsify custom forms and that you declared the amount that he paid which is what the customs form asks for. (don't use my wording as I'm not being very eloquent )

As far as feedback, ebay will remove it if the buyer complains about custom fees in their feedback but there is no guarantee that they will mention them. Chances are that they will focus on the dog hair. Have a look at the buyer's feedback to see what type of feedback they tend to leave. Also...if the buyer's requests for you to lower the value for customs are on the ebay message system, that could increase your chance of getting any feedback removed.

If I was in that situation, I probably wouldn't pay the buyer out, especially if I was positive that there was no dog hair on the sweater. I would politely explain the situation and I would say that I was sorry that they are not happy with the item and I offer a refund once the item was returned.

But, I'm not in that situation and haven't had any dealings with the buyer so don't have a feel for what they might do. Ultimately it's up to you if you want to give in and offer a partial refund or take a stand.

[mr.elmwood]

"you declared the amount that he paid which is what the customs form asks for."

I dispute that. The CN22 in front of me asks for 'declared value". Declared value is defined as the value declared for mailing purposes. I have never seen it defined as "paid" value. Seller is not "falsifying" anything, declared value can be amount you want it to be.

This is the Canada Post definition of declared value: "the insured value (when coverage is purchased) or declared value for carriage".

[pjcdn2005]

The thread isn't about what amount is to declare on the customs form so my post was not in reference to that.  That boat already sailed so now I'm just trying to help with a problem.

[mr.elmwood]

PJ, I am all on board. The OP stated that the buyer complained about the amount of VAT they had to pay. My responses were in regard to what constitutes declared value that causes that.

Should the buyer have bought from this seller? Obviously not.
Should this seller have acquiesced to the buyer's demands? Seller's choice.

After everything went to Coventry, seller wants out of the mess. My response was in two parts: what they should have done, what they can do.

Should is being used to wrap fish. I stand by my "after" answer: "return for refund".

[olgaolga-123]

Why? What have I done wrong?

[olgaolga-123]

I declared the true value, exactly the amount the buyer paid. And the shipping charges are also true charges. What is wrong with that? What  should I have done differently? What is fishy about the transaction?

[mr.elmwood]

Declared value is Not, never has been, never will be, the sold price. Declared value is any arbitrary figure, you like, for carrier liability.

Yes, you entered price paid and postage. Buyer got hit with VAT on the combined total. THAT, is not your fault.

What you should have done is entirely up to you.

Any time I have been asked to put a low declared value, on a non-insured parcel, I have. Why? Nothing to do with me.I have no insurance, nothing to cover, so, as far as I am concerned the value to me is zero. Why not declare it as such?

If you had sold a diamond ring "worth" $1 million dollars, for a $100, what would you declare the value as? The $100 paid, or, the $1 million assessed vale?

You really have not done anything wrong. You simply ran into a buyer who requested that the sale be handled in a different manner. You chose not to. Completely within your prevue to say no.

Any time I get a request for a lower declared value, I do it. It has nothing to do with me.

[triber]

The problem I see with lowing the value, is that that is the insured value. So if the package gets lost in the mail, Canada Post will only refund the amount of the value you put on the item.

[maggiebvintage2010]

Declared value is defined in the World Trade Organization's Valuation Agreement, aka the Customs Valuation Code, which is a system for valuing goods in accordance with commercial reality.  It prohibits the use of arbitrary or fictitious customs values.  This definition applies to all countries.

When you make a declaration of value, it is a valuation for duty, not for insurance or carrier liability.  The declared value can be different from the insured value.  The general principles for customs valuation are laid down in the GATT, which states that the value is based on the actual price paid, which is generally shown on the invoice.  This is the transaction value, and is the first and most important method of valuation.  Of course there are specific exceptions and adjustments, most of which do not apply to eBay sellers and buyers.

All commercial transactions that will be exported / imported must have a declared value.  As sellers on eBay, this is no different for us than the requirement for an HS code.   We should actually include a copy of the invoice behind the shipping label, in the CP labelope or another type of plastic cover, for Customs reference.  Ebay enjoins us not to agree to any request to change the amount of valuation from that on the invoice.

As a former licensed customs broker and manager of a large international trading house, perhaps I have a stronger opinion on this than many others.  I also have first hand experience working with trading houses and Customs services in many countries, lots of them in the less developed parts of the world, and have seen what can go wrong, and how arbitrary some decisions can be if there is no proper paperwork.  I would not agree to any request to alter the paperwork, and would offer to cancel the sale and refund the buyer if asked.  And I have been asked, but after giving a very polite explanation for my refusal, have never had to cancel a sale for this reason.

[reallynicestamps]

Why? What have I done wrong?

Nothing.

The question is "how do I deal with this angry and entitled customer?"

The customs value is a sidebar, of more interest to sellers who deal with this request on a regular basis than it is directly related to your problem.

Personally, I would go with the Return for Refund. You might mention that when she does so, she can also apply for a refund of the VAT, as returned goods.

This job goes south, there well may not be another. So here is us, on the raggedy edge.-- Captain Malcolm Reynolds

[reallynicestamps]

I would not agree to any request to alter the paperwork, and would offer to cancel the sale and refund the buyer if asked.

Again not directly dealing with the OP's question, but thank you for that explanation.

It was mentioned above, that CPO will look at both insured and customs value when considering an insurance claim. This is something that sellers should consider, even though these claims are going to be few and far between, especially now that Small Packet no longer carries insurance.

[cumos55]

There have been some situations noted on eBay.com where a valuation was "too low" based on an evaluation by customs.

The parcel was opened...  the item was appraised  and a "more appropriate" valuation was given.

The person received the parcel and paid duties, and more if necessary,  based on the new appraisal of the item in the parcel.

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Imagine a situation where the valuation is lower than the purchase price.  Customs in the destination country makes an evaluation  that is higher than that listed on the customs form with the parcel... but lower than the purchase price.

How does one prove the valuation on the original customs form was correct?

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A proper valuation  with country of manufacture noted  is necessary.

Many a country's customs  will open a suspect parcel...

France is an example...  A parcel labeled as toys with no other reference  will be opened.... and all toys manufactured in China will be removed....  the remainder of the parcel, if there is a remainder,  will be allowed entry into France.

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the eleventh commandment....

Thou shalt not lie on customs forms....

[mr.elmwood]

Define valuation.

Is the $0 I paid, freely and clearly? Is it the $100 I sold it for? Is it the $1000 it is truly worth?

Recently, I sold a widget for $16 through BIN. A week later I sold an identical widget, at auction, for $45. Widget cost me nothing. Both widgets left the country as un-insured small packet with no insurance, thus, making the widget worth nothing to me as I have no means of recovering anything, should it go missing.

I have looked, looked, looked some more. The only definition I have ever found for value is for carrier liability. Carrier, in my case has zero liability.

[cumos55]

The buyer has to understand 

(1) Valuation on a customs form must be the purchase price..  It is illegal to state otherwise

(2) Buyer pays the purchase price plus shipping to the seller.

(3) eBay's rule is that l  customs  and duty is the responsibility of the buyer... and must be paid by the buyer.  The seller is not responsibility for these costs.....  eBay's rule....

Buyer is a bit confused..... Buyer assumes that he already paid VAT (UK's Value Added Tax) when he made a purchase.

Buyer may be confused with the Global Shipping Program available on eBay.com

Buyer might also be confused in relation to animal hairs on the item....  Was the parcel opened by customs?

The best answer is ... Return for refund.....

In many instances...  this stops all of the argument.....  or the purchased item may be returned....

All communication should be through eBay messages.....  If there is any problem...  eBay can view the communication.

The buyer may also be smart enough to know that everything through eBay messages can be viewed by eBay... putting him at fault in relation to some if not all of his requests....