eBay

rose-dee · ‎04-27-2013

I sold a rather expensive item to an experienced buyer in the UK based on an offer that was 68% of my (already reduced) listed price. I sent an invoice, charging only 40% of the actual shipping cost for Xpresspost. On Day 4, after a reminder from me, the buyer paid, but sent a message (through eBay) asking me to please read the message sent to my email address.

I knew exactly what that message was going to be about, and sure enough -- could I mark $20 as the value on the Customs forms?

The price paid for the item was $180 (true value was ca. $300) and there had been a clear "blurb" about customs set out in the listing. Based on the fact that the buyer had purchased a number of similar items from US buyers, and the buyer's avoidance of the eBay message system, I knew this was someone who understood the system well.

My initial reaction, had the buyer not already paid for the item, would have been to report the matter to eBay. However, having been fully paid, I was now in a position of being potentially held at ransom for FB and DSRs for not complying with the illegal request. By the way, there was no overt FB extortion.

I had no choice but to send a very polite explanation as to why I couldn't oblige re the customs value. I had to hope the buyer wouldn't be ticked off enough to retaliate in FB/DSR. At that point, having earlier lowered my price twice, accepted a low-ish offer, and paid a huge chunk of money for the shipping, I just wanted to end the misery. Refunding and asking him to cancel however would still leave FB/DSR open.

The buyer hasn't replied to my message -- not even a "sorry to have asked" -- so now I'm holding my breath and keeping my fingers crossed for 45 days. I will probably block the buyer after that. I did absolutely everything to please this person and hated being put in this position. I will NOT falsify customs values, and make this ever-so-politely clear in my listings. When this buyer was already saving nearly $140 on the deal, why push for more? I don't understand this behaviour.

Was there any other option for me in this situation?

I'd appreciate insight from sellers who deal with UK/European buyers of higher value items that warrant Xpresspost shipping, because I know this will happen again.

asyahijab · ‎04-27-2013

2 weeks ago I sent a $25 package to UK buyers.

She has to pay 11.50 poundsterling (8.50 custom handling +3 for VAT).

She was screaming to me so loud demanding me to refund her duty.

asyahijab · ‎04-27-2013

Looks like their duty VAT and tax is quite expensive.

i*m-still-here · ‎04-27-2013

Since the buyer asked you to alter the declared value you hold all the cards.

If she leaves NFB, claims IDNA, etc., they will more than likely find in your favour.

It is not necessary to threaten......... just asking that question is enough.

The buyer committed the ultimate ebay sin.

rose-dee · ‎04-27-2013

Since the buyer asked you to alter the declared value you hold all the cards.

If she leaves NFB, claims IDNA, etc., they will more than likely find in your favour.

Hi i*m-still-here -- I thought so too, until I recently learned that NFB concerning customs issues will only be removed if customs is the only thing mentioned in the FB. In other words, if the buyers leaves NFB and says: "great item, but had to pay $XX for customs", eBay will not remove it immediately upon request by the seller.

Sorry, what's IDNA - item not received? I covered my posterior on that one by sending the item Xpresspost (mostly at my expense) with signature confirmation and with full insurance (all at my own expense).

It may be that if the seller presents enough evidence there might be a chance to convince eBay to reverse NFB, etc. I can only hope this quietly goes away... but I've saved all the emails just in case.

i*m-still-here · ‎04-27-2013

Since the buyer asked you to alter the custom's form............ any claims such as the item didn't arrive, not as described.......... everything is compromised for the buyer.

I'm not saying that you'll find in your favour necessarily and remove any poor rating etc., but that changes everything.

westernstargifts · ‎04-27-2013

Altering the customs form is illegal as well as being against eBay policy. I would report the buyer before FB is ever left so eBay has the details in advance. The fact that the buyer has already paid doesn't matter. You can still report him/her to eBay.

Also I would reply to the email through eBay messaging saying something like the following:

Thank you for your purchase. Unfortunately the true value of the merchandise is required on customs form as per eBay, policy, legal requirements and for insurance purposes.

rosscd57 · ‎04-28-2013

Even aside from making an incorrect statement on a customs form - you would not be able to insure it for its full value through Canada Post. That is what I used to tell overseas buyers, before I stopped shipping overseas. It usually worked.

__________________________________________________________

Old enough to know better. Young enough to do it again. Crazy enough to try

pocomocomputing · ‎04-28-2013

For anyone interested in what the UK duty rates are and the import limit for VAT:

http://www.dutycalculator.com/help_center/Import-duty-taxes-when-importing-into-the-United-Kingdom/

The above site has information on other countries. This site is relatively new and information appears to be accurate for the countries listed.

rose-dee · ‎04-28-2013

Even aside from making an incorrect statement on a customs form - you would not be able to insure it for its full value through Canada Post. That is what I used to tell overseas buyers, before I stopped shipping overseas. It usually worked.

Yes, this is exactly the "excuse" I always use too. You're right, it makes sense, and also happens to be true! I point out (nicely) that it is illegal to falsify values, and at the very least such a practice leaves them open to the risk of actually being charged more in duty, taxes, etc. if Customs were to open the parcel than if the actual value is claimed on the form, since Customs will then arbitrarily decide the value.

I also mention that at worst they could find themselves being investigated by their country's tax/customs authorities. I find that some new international buyers hadn't considered this as a possibility, or hadn't realized that incorrectly stating value for customs purposes was even illegal, so I give them the benefit of the doubt (the first time).

However this particular buyer was not unschooled in the ways of eBay and customs charges. He knew precisely what he was doing and how to (attempt) to do it. I didn't reply through eBay because his email was sent to my own email address. I suppose I could have sent a new message from eBay, but I thought it would be best for reporting purposes to have his request and my answer on the same page, so to speak.

I may consider "westernstargift's" suggestion and report him now anyway, hoping that eBay will deal with any negative FB, etc. he may leave (I suppose he does have me at ransom, because I don't want to antagonize him now with an eBay report).

The problem is, I don't have a great deal of confidence in EBay customer service anymore, after a recent issue that they dealt with very poorly. I just don't need bad DSRs from this sort of person right now.

I want to block this buyer, but was going to wait until after 45 days or after he leaves FB. I assume that if a buyer is blocked, he/she still has the ability to leave FB/DSR?

i*m-still-here · ‎04-28-2013

""Yes, this is exactly the "excuse" I always use too."""

Rose........... It sounds like you have numerous such requests. Just how many buyers ask you to fudge the numbers?

Even though my items tend to be over $100 I rarely get a request to alter forms.

When I do I can't say that I blame the buyer for asking................. it's just a question and to my mind no bigger sin that exceeding the speed limit by a a few miles.

It's not legal, and you might get a ticket.... but no bid deal either.

Personally ............... all that reporting makes me feel like I'm back in the school yard .......... tattling wasn't cool then and to me it's not cool now either.

What's the point?

rose-dee · ‎04-28-2013

Rose........... It sounds like you have numerous such requests. Just how many buyers ask you to fudge the numbers?

Personally ............... all that reporting makes me feel like I'm back in the school yard .......... tattling wasn't cool then and to me it's not cool now either.

What's the point?

I sell quite a bit to the UK and Europe, and just about everyone who has bought an item over $40 has asked. I don't get this request from US buyers, no doubt because their import limit is far higher.

Yes, I agree, I hate the "tattling" aspect of this problem, I also always feel awkward having to said sorry, no I can't do that. But it is illegal, the sellers who do accede to a request to falsify value are putting themselves and the buyer at some risk -- it may not be much, but it's there.

The thing is, eBay can't condone it, or be seen to be condoning it. If it got to a point where the majority of sellers were falsifying values, then the sellers who were complying with the law would be avoided by buyers and would soon be out of business (and probably so would eBay). It's a difficult issue, but I think eBay has taken some steps recently to protect sellers and make buyers more aware of customs charges (such as the reminder line near the top of listings). I'm grateful for that, but it still doesn't seem to deter people from asking that dreaded question...

There was a long, long string about this subject a few weeks ago, I think it may have had "GST/HST" as well as Customs in the subject line, I can't recall now. If it's still there, you might find it interesting to read through -- it was quite a hot topic for a while on this board!

westernstargifts · ‎04-28-2013

However this particular buyer was not unschooled in the ways of eBay and customs charges. He knew precisely what he was doing and how to (attempt) to do it. I didn't reply through eBay because his email was sent to my own email address. I suppose I could have sent a new message from eBay, but I thought it would be best for reporting purposes to have his request and my answer on the same page, so to speak.

I may consider "westernstargift's" suggestion and report him now anyway, hoping that eBay will deal with any negative FB, etc. he may leave (I suppose he does have me at ransom, because I don't want to antagonize him now with an eBay report).

That is exactly why I reply to that type of message through eBay messaging. This buyer knows what he is doing. eBay can see my reply to the email in eBay messaging and can see that I am trying to keep communication on eBay. I get this request only occasionally but that is the way I do it and I have never had a buyer leave me a neg because of it.

I have only reported one buyer who gave me 3 different addresses and then claimed non-receipt...which she won because there was no tracking. However, I had reported the buyer before the dispute was started. The buyer never did leave feedback. eBay may not have done anything about it but now they have it on record if that buyer tries the same thing with other sellers who, in turn, also report her.

I don't call that tattling. When buyers make threats and leave negative FB that has negative repercussions on sellers they need to be stopped. Tattling when we were kids did not affect anyone's livelihood.

Also, I received a message from eBay yesterday saying that, because of my good performance as a seller, they removed 4 DSR's where an unnamed buyer had left 1's across the board. From that email:

"Note that these removals were the result of patterns identified by eBay's detection systems and/or cumulative reports from you and other sellers. They may be related to transactions that occurred any time over the past several months."

The report system was put in place to help sellers counteract this type of behaviour and there were a lot of sellers who thought it was a great idea when it was started. In my case it certainly worked in my favour and I appreciate it.

i*m-still-here · ‎04-28-2013

I'm amazed that you have so many requests.

I ship over seas all the time and get perhaps one such request a year.........

.......... and then only if the buyer and I have been communicating about other things previously and they feel comfortable with me.

Perhaps you should consider yourself lucky that they are asking and you have the messages on file should you need them after the sale.

rose-dee · ‎04-28-2013

I'm amazed that you have so many requests.

I ship over seas all the time and get perhaps one such request a year.........

Perhaps you should consider yourself lucky that they are asking and you have the messages on file should you need them after the sale.

Possibly it has to do with the type of items (vintage/antique clothing), I really don't know. I just wish people would read the reminder on the listing and not ask in the first place. To me it's obvious that the reason they do ask is because some other seller(s) out there has agreed to falsify values for them previously.

rafael.xavier · ‎04-29-2013

you should not be feeling awkward for denying buyer's request.

If possible, setup an email filter on your email account that will reject any email sent directly without going through Ebay. It would be called "white-list", where only particular senders are allowed and everything else is rejected.

If I am insuring, I would decline. If I am not insuring, it does not matter what value you write and I would comply. If you are uneasy about it, you can back it up by decreasing subtotal and increasing freight, while using only subtotal as insured/declared value.

rose-dee · ‎04-30-2013

If possible, setup an email filter on your email account that will reject any email sent directly without going through Ebay. It would be called "white-list", where only particular senders are allowed and everything else is rejected.

If I am insuring, I would decline. If I am not insuring, it does not matter what value you write and I would comply. If you are uneasy about it, you can back it up by decreasing subtotal and increasing freight, while using only subtotal as insured/declared value.

With respect to email, I don't want to restrict who can contact me directly, as there are some occasions when I have very pleasant exchanges with buyers outside of eBay (where there is a very short character limit for messages which can get very annoying).

I've simply decided, whether a parcel is insured or not insured, I am not going to break the law. I will not comply with such a request, no matter what. If a buyer can't understand or accept that, and retaliates in FB/DSRs for that reason, I'll have to take it up with eBay afterward. I discount almost all my shipping, I use Paypal online labelling almost exclusively, and pass on these savings to my buyers, so I feel this should help to offset the extra customs/duties charges.

However for some people it seems there is never a limit. They want low shipping, low prices and low (or no) customs charges. I'm happy to help them with the first two, but not the last. As I said, buyers will only continue to ask if some sellers continue to comply. It isn't a matter of being a "grey area", although many people treat it as such -- it is fraud, and is illegal.

There is, by the way, a reason it's called a customs "declaration". Ultimately the person who makes the declaration may be held to that statement which has the effect of evidence at law.

In everyday transactions, probably the most likely consequence is simply that the buyer's package will be torn open, evaluated by customs officials, and the buyer will be charged more in duty than he might have had the seller not been asked to falsify the value in the first place.

How happy would that buyer be, after the seller complied with his illegal request but ended up actually costing the buyer more money? And if the buyer receives his package already opened and the item inside possibly damaged? My guess, not too happy - negative FB & low DSRs might be the result, and what could the seller could say? Well, the buyer asked me, and I thought I should do what he asked. Not enough for eBay or for the law, for that matter.

I'll try to remember to update string updated once I have the buyer's FB, or after the 45 days. Fingers crossed...

anguscoinshop · ‎04-30-2013

There's only only one way to resolved this kind of behavior on eBay, sellers must be able to issue negative feedback again. It is the only way to keep at bay the bad buyers.

Other auction sites are staying true to there origin.

Ebay has come up with a bunch of useless policies that have created nothing but more problems than we need.

Do away with them and let the true auction site event unfold as they should.

Positive/Positive

Neutral/Neutral

Negative/Negative

As long as these aren't equal on both sides, this site will always be extremely problematic.

pierrelebel · ‎04-30-2013

Feedback policy at Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=1161284

nuvistors · ‎04-30-2013

I sold a rather expensive item to an experienced buyer in the UK based on an offer that was 68% of my (already reduced) listed price. I sent an invoice, charging only 40% of the actual shipping cost for Xpresspost. On Day 4, after a reminder from me, the buyer paid, but sent a message (through eBay) asking me to please read the message sent to my email address.

I knew exactly what that message was going to be about, and sure enough -- could I mark $20 as the value on the Customs forms?

The price paid for the item was $180 (true value was ca. $300) and there had been a clear "blurb" about customs set out in the listing. Based on the fact that the buyer had purchased a number of similar items from US buyers, and the buyer's avoidance of the eBay message system, I knew this was someone who understood the system well.