your opinion...and your advice...

[katiusciav]

hiya ps'ers;

i've encountered a bit of a problem. about a month ago or so, i purchased a charcoal framed sketch of a very desirable canadian artist at a local auction...it was sold to me framed and sealed and the sketch was signed. i sold it on ebay shortley after for a good sum, which was expected for this artist.
two days ago, i received an email from the buyer (who, by the way, purchases LOTS of high end artwork from ebay), claiming he had taken the piece to his regular framing store to have the sketch removed from the original frame and reframed. he said when they removed the sketch, they discovered it was merely a photocopy...a print...a repro of the original, and wanted all his money back...700cdn!!!:O needless to say, i was a little nauseous... i didn't have a clue! one of this artist's sketches was purchased two weeks before mine at the exact same auction place and sold on ebay for 800us...

after getting over my shock, i started to think of what to do. i'm the type of person where i need a good day/night sleep to think over big decisions, but my first reaction (of course) was that he bid on the item, i didn't guarantee it to be original with any certificates (in fact, i showed a pic of the back of the frame that was blank and had no sticker of authenticity), and i also stated it was purchased at an auction, and not from an artdealer, so there's always that risk of the unknown..i also stated in my auction that i hadn't removed it from the frame, which i hadn't.

i replied to him saying i thought it was unfair to expect all his money back since i didn't guarantee its authenticity. he replied back a little angry (obviously) stating he would go through ebay/paypal disputes to resolve this.

shortly after, i had decided (not because of his threat, or fearing a negetive) that i should probably reimburse him the money...since it WAS my product, genuine or not.
(even though i believe some responsibility should lay with the buyer in asking the right questions...had he emailed me before bidding and asked if there was a certificate of authenticity, i would have told him no).

i wonder if anyone knows what ebay WOULD do in a case like this should i had decided not to reimburse him...i guess they take it on a case by case basis?

also, wondering what you would do, and if i am in fact making the right decision? i just want a second opinion...as it is alot of money:-(

[nancyschina]

If it were me, I would ask for the picture to be returned and I would refund the money. You sold it as a sketch and not a photocopy ... and it is not a sketch. Imagine if the tables were turned and this happened to you. What would you expect the seller to do??

[katiusciav]

that's why i'm returning his money, when you're in the situation, its hard to think objectively, especially when its alot of money. my initial response (although wrong) was a knee jerk reaction and a bit of desperate fear at having to return all that money!:_|...
but having other people agree that its the right decision makes me feel better.

[duujogl]

Kat, I agree too -- his money should be returned. Unless an item is described as a reproduction, I believe the buyer has a right to expect genuine, especially when he pays a genuine price! It's happened to us a few times, sometimes the buyer is wrong and it IS genuine, but an on-line seller's reputation is his/her most valuable asset and I don't believe it should be jeopardized for any amount of money!

Glenda

[katiusciav]

..thanks..! another ps'er agrees. now i'm certain in my decision...by the way...can i borrow 700.00?

[treasure-pot]

Just to chirp in... you are doing the right thing Kat. Buyers only have our words and images to go on when making a decision to bid. If our description is inaccurate they should have every right to ask for their money back. That said, the seller also has the right to ask for the item back. In this instance, it should also fall to you to pay the return shipping.

Bill treasure-pot

[orbitdrop.ont_01]

Hello,

I can tell you what eBay would probably do as I have just finished going through the same thing.

Dispute Resolution. Either you or the buyer can start the process. It will be a lot of back and forth between you and the buyer before eBay steps in but here is what I know...

Selling something without a certificate must say so somewhere before the auction ends. eBay will check emails and your item description to see if the bidder/you discuss the lack of certificate. If there is any mention anywhere regarding no certificate then you are pretty much free (eBay can also protect you from negative feedback should the buyer leave it).

If there is no mention of a lack of certificate, eBay could either:

A. Slap your wrist for not being more thorough in your description of the item
B. Give you a 'strike' through the dispute resolution. Basically it's like a bad feedback but it's not readily visible.

If this is your first time this happened I wouldn't sweat it because eBay would rather collect your fees as opposed to banning you. Strikes against accounts are not too big a problem for sellers from what I understood from eBay, however buyers with a lot of strikes are kept an eye on.

If you are interested in what I would do, it is this:
I would tell my buyer that an agreement was made between the two of you much like the agreement you made with the auctioneer you originally bought it from. As you can't go after your seller to reimburse your loss when you were the original buyer, your buyer should expect the same.


I would also contact the auctioneer you originally bought from and tell him the problem... could be he doesn't even know he's selling prints, or he's doing so deliberately.

My personal experience just ended and eBay sided with me but maybe they may not in your case. I have been selling some crystal figurines since Christmas so I've always stated certificate or not in my descriptions.

I hope some of my ramblings help...

[katiusciav]

...its a lesson learned...although its not like i could remove the print from the frame before purchasing it..it was sealed....oh well...just one of those things i guess...
glad to hear you would do the same bill...although the buyer offered to pay the return shipping, and i didn't argue!!:-D

[katiusciav]

orbit-your ramblings have definitely helped and answered alot of my questions...just questions that arose out of this..not that i was thinking of fighting it...well..i was at first, but since then have decided i would feel too bad if i kept the money. isn't that interesting...they would even save me a negetive if i won. i didn't think they would throw me off ebay, as it would be a first offence, and it would be hard to prove that i was trying to intentionally defraud someone, as i had no clue myself.
its a good lesson learned in what i include in my descriptions...i sell lots of artwork, and i will definitely include certificates in my listings from here on end...
as for contacting the auctioneer...i thought about that too...its kind of tricky...usually they state from the beginning that items are sold as is, but they DID sell it as an original...thing is, they themselves probably didn't know either...when you photocopy black charcoal, it comes out looking exactly like black charcoal...unfortunate..:-(

[treasure-pot]

Which suggests, Kat, that your buyer is being more than reasonable. Many, in the same situation, would rant "it's your mistake - you foot the bill!". It would appear that he believes it to be an honest mistake and just doesn't want to be stuck with an expensive photocopy. Keep it civil and you may at least come out of this with a positive feedback.

Remember, when you get the item back, to file for the return of your FVF (item returned) - on a $700 sale it will certainly buy you more than a cup 'o coffee.

Bill treasure-pot

[treasure-pot]

Orbit and Kat - the difference being that at a live auction you get to physically inspect an item... not the same on eBay where you only have words and, sometimes, less than clear images.

There is frequently a difference between what is legally right and what is morally right. Forget the legal Kat and sleep at night.

Bill treasure-pot

[katiusciav]

heeeeeeeeey thanks bill!!!!!!!!! i never thought of filing to get the fvf back! at 700, that's good moolah, forget the cup of coffee, at 35.00, that'll get me a whipped mocha expresso double cocoa capuccino latte with a cherry on top...;-)

[zarzuella]

I hope you aren't being scammed.

Do you have any way of knowing that the photocopy the buyer returns is the same thing that you sold? Seems like a really easy thing to switch.

Ann

[katiusciav]

my god ann what good point. how would i to know now? there would be no way of knowing. he has good feedback...and buys lots of expensive artwork, that's all i know. geez, now my head's racing...

[alero0]

he has good feedback...and buys lots of expensive artwork, that's all i know.
That's a lot to know. Someone like that doesn't suddenly become a scammer. You can usually know a lot about a person by reading their feedback. If you found any of his FB's that remotely suggests that he's done this before then I'd be worried, but if not I'd believe him.

[futuretech_liquidations]

Kat - before I refunded any monies to this buyer I would definately as for a written letter from the framing store including telephone number and I would call and verify his claim before proceeding.

Art scams are rappant on eBaY and just because he has good feedback does not mean he/she is 100% honest.

For future reference I would also have some sort of securuty markings on expensive items like this so that you can check to see if the item was removed/replaced and/or tampered with.

We sell alot of electronics and you would not believe the scams that people try to pull on us - especially laptops.

Also, re-read your AD listing and if you honestly feel that you may have misrepresented the product just slightly then you have to factor that in - but if after you re-read your AD listing you feel that you did not omit anything that you KNEW at the time you wrote the AD then your conscious should be clear since eBaY rules state that you must describe the item to the best of your abilities using any and all means to properly and accurately describe the item -- which I take from your remarks you did exactly that.

Ok, thats my 2 cents worth.

Good luck

TIM @ FTL

[katiusciav]

Hi tim, thanks for the advice, and i do agree somewhat. just because someone has perfect feedback doesn't mean they can't turn around one day and attempt something like this. besides, who's to say he didn't attempt it before, and it worked, and got good feedback?
the first thing i did was re-read my ad...its one of those 'either way' things...i listed it as a genuine sketch, since i thought it was one, and was sold to me as such, but at the same time, it wasn't guaranteed anywhere in my listing that it had a certificate...
that being said, i did describe it to the best of my ability, and had no intentional misrepresentation.
anywho...i read the article that was on the national post, posted here a few days ago, and thank you for speaking for me on this one, and alot of others i'm sure..i'm just wondering if canada post is listening..

[tea_past_times]

I had the same thing happen to me. Guy bought a $300.00 painting, kept it for 4 days, then emailed me and said it was a print, not a painting, He sent it back, I looked at it and emailed him back, asking how a print could possible have paint with obvious brush strokes on it, (had a very tiny flake of the painting tested-it was paint) Anyway, my listing too had stated - I know nothing of art, it looks like a painting to me, there are obvious brush strokes in it. Use your own judgement when bidding. I started it at $19.99, and it quickly sold for $300.00. After 4 months of paperwork with ebay and Paypal, they gave the buyer a full refund. Long story short - Kiss your money good-bye, it's aleady gone. Paypal always gives the buyer preferential treatment. My condolences.

-PHIL
Tea_past_times

[whoscloset]

Paypal always gives the buyer preferential treatment.

Are you conveniently lying again or do you just not know what you are talking about.

PayPal's stand on "items not as described" or "arrived damaged" is as follows: Provided the customer return the item WITH TRACKABLE SHIPPING at their own expense...they will receive a full refund which includes the original shipping cost.

That's it...period. If you want the opportunity to recover anything from this transaction you will request that the item be returned. They customer is already going to get their original payment back provided they initiate and follow through on a PayPal complaint within the required time frames.
Monique

Himalayan Salt Lamps - A Guide to Purchasing

[katiusciav]

Provided the customer return the item WITH TRACKABLE SHIPPING at their own expense...they will receive a full refund which includes the original shipping cost.

but this is only if paypal rules in favour of the buyer..??