eBay

dutchman48 · ‎09-16-2014

This is getting ridiculous

Effective Date: November 18, 2014

Dispute Filing Window

We’re increasing the time for buyers to file a merchandise dispute (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days. All references in the User Agreement to “Opening a Dispute within 45 days” have been updated to reflect “Opening a Dispute within 180 days.” The Sections these changes appear include the Introduction, 3.15, 13.2 and 13.5.

at the bottom of the PayPal page under "Policy Updates

dutchman48 · ‎09-18-2014

Is Ebay also going to change their MBG and Feedback policy to 180 days as well

cumos55 · ‎09-18-2014

Perhaps we should ask

Why would a buyer file a claim after 45 days?

Item not received....

How many items are received by the buyer after 45 days? and ..... Why does this occur?

Item not as described

Buyer receives the item... and everything looks OK.

Then Why would they file a Not as Described after 45 days....

------------------

How many sellers actually describe what they are selling... in words and not just pictures....

I have seen too many listings where it is very difficult to determine the actual condition of the item being sold.

and then what is actually being sold.

---------------------------------------------

I found a book with the title"The Second Law" with a tiger in a jungle on the cover.

No other description.... Condition is acceptable... and a big water damage mark is evident. on the cover...inthe photograph

So what is this book about.... Too many non-fiction books are listed in this way... and too many other items, the non-book items, are listed with lots of Terms of Sale.... little or no description.... or condition is noted in the photograph(s).

That book has nothing to do with Tigers, or with the Jungle.

It is about the Application of the Second Law of thermodynamics to every day life.

and... then why list a damaged book on eBay.

Sometimes I get the impression that some sellers plan to get into trouble.

How about a book with Winnipeg Mitchell in the title ... no description... nothing other than these two words in the title.

I eventually tracked it down to be a Federal Government, Canadian, Report... perhaps... Why would some ask about this report, let alone buy it....

Many sellers forget that they are the buyer's eyes..... and must provide a listing that meets the needs of all buyers....

Sometimes I wonder how sellers get away without doing it right....

The 180 day time period may look as a big problem......

We must ask the question......... Who will be affected the most by this longer time period?.... Who will benefit? and Who will not?

A seller has to know how to do it right.... and to know the meaning of right...no matter what they sell on eBay.

There are too many sellers that throw something up on eBay.... and effectively say... Take it or leave it.... and then they get into trouble.....Perhaps...

and that when they find themselves in trouble... They change or leave....

pjcdn2005 · ‎09-18-2014

@dutchman48 wrote:
Is Ebay also going to change their MBG and Feedback policy to 180 days as well

When I asked how this would work at the weekly board hour Ryanne replied

The dispute process will take you through the correct flow which means that if you purchased an item on .com but open a dispute on .ca, you will find yourself completely the flow on .com. If the 45 days are up in order to make a claim through eBay Money Back Guarantee, and you have paid with PayPal, then you will be taken through the PayPal Purchase Protection flow.

drucecat · ‎09-18-2014

@pocomocomputing wrote:
Since PayPal is a very popular online Payment option, perhaps PayPal is matching the dispute time like credit card chargeback times. The current 45 day time limit was very short if a buyer had issues.

The longer times might eliminate credit card chargebacks which must have been a pain for PayPal to process in time and money.

I think you are bang on here poco.

All of us who buy or sell internationally realize that the 45 day limit was not sufficient. I have, at the buyers request, shipped combined orders via surface to Europe. All of these have been to repeat customers, purchasing multiple items, where the cost of air over shadowed the cost of the products This meant a four (4) to six (6) week deliver schedule in a perfect world. I have never received an INR nor a INAD.

As a buyer, I have had delivery of items purchased in the US or overseas, well past 45 days on 6 or 7 occasions. I did not file an INR, as I trusted the sellers. Their feedback was good and their responses to my inquiries were quite believable. All of these transactions ended positively. EBay is after-all, about the trust one places in their fellow human beings.

Also, having read the boards for a number of years, I know I have read multiple times, stories that go like this.

"Its been over a month, and I have not received my item. The seller is asking me to wait just a few more days, as he is sure that it will appear. He assures me that this is not unusual. I'm fairly new to eBay, what should I do?"

So, overall, I'm not surprised that the 45 day limit is being increased. And, in a typical fashion, by these companies, a sledge hammer is being used, when a tack hammer would suffice. Six months, 180 days, the only explanation that works for me, goes something like this. According to PayPal; "since we have to change the INR / INAD limit, why don't we increase it to the maximum time those nasty charge-backs unexpectedly effect our business. We fix two problems with one change. And, as we know that over 99.9 % (my fictitious number) of eBay transactions end positively, the increase in fraud this change will cause is minimal".

Yes, minimal - unless your the one being defrauded. Then the effect is very, very real and very irritating.

dutchman48 · ‎09-18-2014

And who says buyers will wait 180 days to file?

Another seller posted an item to China, they filed after 2 weeks. The extended time does not fix anything. I have shipped items on a Friday and had a claim opened the following Monday as Paypal allows it. If Paypal would take the same approach with opening claims they take with the now 180 days people have, it might be accepted better.

bigscotty · ‎09-18-2014

I think that you have missed the point.

No where in my post do I suggest that buyers will take 180 days to file a claim. The ridiculous examples you cite will continue to happen regardless of the 180 day change.

Six months, 180 days to file an INR or an INAD is way too long. This was the sledge hammer I was referring to. The fix I would have looked favorably upon would have been 60 or 75 days. This is the tack hammer fix that I was referring to.

So, what I was trying to explain, apparently unsuccessfully, is the only justification that I can see for the change is:

1. Any increase in the time to file an INR or an INAD will remove a number of unscrupulous sellers who hide behind the existing 45 day limit.

2. And, by increasing this time limit to 180 days, PayPal controls virtually all disputes between a buyer and a seller that occur after the sale through day 180. Effectively, they have removed the credit card companies ability to do a charge-back for the buyer through PayPal. (Some one may have a card that protects purchases beyond 180 days,but I am unaware of it). As a consequence, PayPal is the final determining factor in all INR and INAD. There are no more surprises for PayPal. A claim is filed, they arbitrate (read arbitrate, as finding in the favor of the buyer) and they refund and dock the seller in one fell swoop.

When a credit card company could intervene and refund the buyer after the 45 day limit the Buyer was left with a poor impression of both eBay and PayPal. This change to 180 days insures that a similar impression will not be felt.

And, to finish point 2, charge-backs must have been a nightmare for PayPal to administer.

The nightmare is over for PayPal, but mid-November it begins for a number of honest sellers.

I am in no way an eBay apologist. I am just trying to think out why the change to 180 days may have come about.

dutchman48 · ‎09-18-2014

Maybe you misunderstood me. I did not say they had to wait 180 days. my example shows 2 weeks, so what benefit is there to extending it to 180 days. That is my point. I personally don't care if it is easier for Paypal. I don't have stats but I am sure far more claims than chargebacks.

Also, how does Paypal justify telling sellers to ship and then hours or a day later sending the seller an email that there is a problem, don't ship. If you have already shipped without tracking, the seller is s*0*l and Paypal says tough. Those are issues that need to be dealt with far more than this ridiculous 180 days

dipmicro · ‎09-18-2014

Please explain the logic behing "we are going to see more and more scammers" ?

1. scammer will scam regardless if window is 45 or 180 days, there is no increase in opportunity here

2. honest buyers who used to opened the dispute on day 44 just in case will be willing to wait longer now, so no needless disputes. I can unblock Russia and South America now and start using cheaper surface delivery

3. dishonest seller who dump their cheap inferior goods are affected, because once buyer finds out his 5000mAh lithium battery does not hold charge after 4th recharge, they will SNAD these selles like flies.

Guys, sorry to go against the crowd, but as both buyer and seller I welcome this change. 45 was too short.

rebby-clothes · ‎09-19-2014

I feel in the category I sell in this increases the chance of a buyer scamming by basically "renting" the item then being dishonest and sending it back to me used and worthless. I sell NWT kids clothes. I am concerned about the dishonest buyer using it for a season then sending it back when their kid outgrows it. There's a lot less potential to do that with a 30-45 day window. I am going to look into using ProPay or Skrill after November 18. If I get less/no sales, oh well. I'll get rid of as much as I can before then. I'm a single mom selling to help me stay home with my baby and I don't need the stress of my bank account possibly getting overdrafted six months after the sale because of dishonest buyers while I have to pay to receive back a now used and worthless item.

This absolutely increases the ability to scam if the buyer wants to use the item for a while then get their money back. They now have way longer to do this.

pjcdn2005 · ‎09-19-2014

Effectively, they have removed the credit card companies ability to do a charge-back for the buyer through PayPal.

There might be less of a chance of a buyer doing a chargeback with a longer time limit but it doesn't remove that option. Buyers could still file with their cc company even if Paypal had no time limit.

froogal_electronic_parts_and_overstock · ‎09-19-2014

Costco changed their policy on electronics from essentially a forever return policy, to 1 year, to 90 days.

This is for brand new items.

This is for buyers that Costco knows the names of, credit information, etc.

This is from a company that has 100% control over their buyers and whether they sell to them or not.

WHY did Costco change their policy?

BECAUSE their policy of longer return times was profit negative.

"Honest" buyers used the return period to 'try out' items and return after they were bored with or used the items or if the price dropped, or or or. I know of normally honest people who purchased big ticket items to go on vacation, then 6 weeks later returned the item due to buyers remorse and the fact they really didn't need the item anymore.

While there may be some advantages to sellers, the overall effect will be to shift the burden/cost of returns and claims onto the seller.

Is Costco a dishonest seller? Yet they changed/lowered to a 90 day return policy.

Essentially this is a 6 month WARRANTY on items purchased. Returns will go up dramatically.

I am sure the stamp sellers and coin sellers will be OK, because nothing happens with them, but clothing, electronics, appliances, and more will all experience increased costs due to returns.

cumos55 · ‎09-19-2014

Perhaps sellers should have something call "return insurance"

Something such as this might work for very, very high priced items.... That are not returned in an "original condition"

froogal_electronic_parts_and_overstock · ‎09-19-2014

@cumos55 wrote:
Perhaps sellers should have something call "return insurance"

Something such as this might work for very, very high priced items.... That are not returned in an "original condition"

i don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean personally? Or do you mean ebay to create it, or is there an actual return insurance?

In the end, this is an extra cost that is being added back to the seller, no matter how it's mitigated. Just like a warranty, it has a cost. If it didn't then stores would offer unlimited warranty and unlimited returns.

rose-dee · ‎09-19-2014

@froogal_electronic_parts_and_overstock wrote:

Essentially this is a 6 month WARRANTY on items purchased. Returns will go up dramatically.

I am sure the stamp sellers and coin sellers will be OK, because nothing happens with them, but clothing, electronics, appliances, and more will all experience increased costs due to returns.

Your Costco example makes a lot of sense, and I think you're absolutely right that those of us who sell new items (especially new clothing, which once worn, can no longer be sold as NWT) will feel the impact the most. Sellers of used or repurposed items, particularly of lower value, won't likely have too many worries.

In another of my categories (sewing patterns), even the big stores don't allow returns at all (they never have), because it would be difficult -- or at the least, very time-consuming -- to determine if something was missing or replaced. Those items are almost impossible to resell if they've been taken out of the (sealed) package and handled in any way.

I'm sure there are many such categories of products that are not amenable to being handled or used and aren't worth being returned to the seller for resale. There may be some logic to the idea of warranty insurance (as 'cumos' mentioned), but it would be pretty difficult to estimate the possible loss in advance and provide sufficient insurance for that loss.

I think this change falls into a totally different category than just extending the returns/INAD/INR window. As you've said, it may very well encourage a whole new way of buying on eBay - a sort of "rent and return" mentality -- and place the costs of returns squarely onto the seller. I wouldn't have minded even a 2-month timeframe, but 6 months will cause a lot of unnecessary trouble.

There is another aspect to this: no seller will be able to consider a transaction completely closed until 6 months after the purchase. This means sellers will have to keep a certain pool of funds always available for refunds -- but how much?

froogal_electronic_parts_and_overstock · ‎09-19-2014

this affects all sellers, including used items. 6 months in electronic time is a long time.

People who sell stamps or coins or other collectible items may not be affected as much because they inspect the item when it arrives and if it's OK it goes into their collection and isn't used.

Sellers of items that get used are now open to a big number of returns.

Costco eliminated their generous return policy because of abuse. At least you had to go in store and give the return face to face.

I am sure that with free return shipping and a 6 month warranty, and buying from someone you never have to look at or think about the returns will increase.

zee-chan · ‎09-20-2014

Excellent example of why increasing it from 45 days to 180 days is a nightmare. I do NOT want people who buy books / collectibles to return it after reading / putting it on their shelves for 6 months, PERIOD.

Heck, none of the Japanese retailers that I buy from accept returns unless the item has manufacturer's defect to begin with. All of these retailers will go bankrupt if they accept books / collectibles returns within 180 days period! Yahoo Auction Japan allow no-return policy for sellers. Rose's example of no-return-for-patterns is a great one too. It's too hard to tell if anything has gone missing for such items.

Really, I feel like this is yet another eBay change just to drive out small sellers...

cumos55 · ‎09-20-2014

A buyer with too many claims in that 90 to 180 days time period...

Is that a problem buyer... looking to scam the seller?

Buyers who do this are identified very quickly....

The view is that sellers will be hurt.... but many forget... Buyers must be careful not to become that problem buyer.

cumos55 · ‎09-20-2014

The 45 day period was used by some sellers.... Extend a problem beyond 45 days... and a buyer has lost.

Now it will be 180 days....

cumos55 · ‎09-20-2014

Will Paypal extend their refund window beyond 60 days?

Refund beyond 60 days and Paypal does not refunds fees...

rose-dee · ‎09-20-2014

@cumos55 wrote:
Will Paypal extend their refund window beyond 60 days?

Refund beyond 60 days and Paypal does not refunds fees...

Interesting point -- so potentially a seller could lose on that side as well, and possibly have an item returned that is no longer saleable (or must be sold at a discount).

I'm having trouble understanding how 180 days is going to work in practical terms unless eBay and Paypal revise and co-ordinate a number of their current methods of recording and tracking transactions.

This just looks like another half-baked idea (albeit more ludicrous than most) that wasn't properly thought out before being launched. Perhaps eBay and Paypal aren't talking to each other in anticipation of a divorce?

Tweedledum and Tweedledee...