buyer return fraud

[ladybug2785]

Greetings. Just had a buyer open a return case. The buyer bought a nice condition used music cd. It appears that the buyer has put the cd in a microwave oven and now wants a full refund of the item price plus shipping and has opened a return case. How to proceed with this?

Item number: 111654762401 Prozzak cd

I have attached the pictures from the return case.

[ladybug2785]

It would seem that only one picture per post is allowed.

I attached another picture.

[ladybug2785]

3rd picture attached.

[maximus7001]

Yup, that was in a microwave alright. The burns on the cover even line up with the disc.

http://www.viralforest.com/happens-microwave-cd/

Sadly ebay will probably side with the bad buyer due to their general lack of any sense of reality.

[pjcdn2005]

Unfortunately, ebay has no way of knowing what condition the item was sent in so the buyer will probably win.  If the return request stated that the CD was not as described/not working, then you also have to pay the return shipping. In that case, you might want to refund without a return so that you don't have to pay for return shipping.

[reallynicestamps]

I'd refund the asking price without demanding a return.

At minimum wage of 18cents a minute, how much time can you spend on this?

Then with the transaction closed, I'd ask eBay if there is any indication that the buyer has a habit of doing this.

The reason I ask is, when I buy a CD, I upload it to my iTunes then take the disc out to the car, which is where I usually play it or put it in the 'poor box' for donation.

So your buyer may be doing the same, with the sneaky addition of demanding his money back.

There may be a papertrail with eBay. Or even in his 'feedback left for others'.

And of course, he goes on your Blocked Bidder List.

[recped]

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@ladybug2785 wrote:

Greetings. Just had a buyer open a return case. The buyer bought a nice condition used music cd. It appears that the buyer has put the cd in a microwave oven and now wants a full refund of the item price plus shipping and has opened a return case. How to proceed with this?

Item number: 111654762401 Prozzak cd

I have attached the pictures from the return case.

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How do you know it wasn't damaged in transit?

The idea that somebody would put a $5 cd in a microwave in order to return it seems hard to believe. Would be a lot easier to simply say that it looks fine but skips.

If it was me I would just send a full refund and be done with it.

[ladybug2785]

Look at it and compare it to the auction. One poster even pointed out that the burns on the insert line up with the same burn pattern on the disc (mirror mage). I can see it.

Damaged in transit???? So I guess Canada Post is in the habit of cooking packages in a microwave oven?

Just look at this and tell me that this did not happen to this Prozzak cd:

http://raptor.physics.wisc.edu/wacky/cd/

All you really need to do is go to google.com and enter microwave cd in the search box and you will get your answer to this scam.

[rose-dee]

I agree with you.  I think it makes no sense to imagine this kind of damage occurred in transit.  Thousands upon thousands of CDs must go through the postal system and they don't end up like this one. 

Whether the buyer deliberately damaged the CD or not (maybe his 4-year-old kid stuck it in the microwave to see what would happen), you'll never know.  It doesn't matter at this point because eBay unfortunately won't stand by you anyway.  

The way I see it, eBay introduced its MBG programme to appeal to buyers as if it had direct control over the returns/refunds process (like major retailers such as Sears), without having to take the direct losses themselves (as do companies like Sears).  EBay launched the MBG without having any system in place to mitigate buyer fraud of this type (for example, a CS department devoted to adjudicating such cases might have been conceivable, but why would they do this -- it would cost a lot of money to have such time-consuming services available).  Basically it was easier and cheaper for eBay to drop the problem in its sellers' laps. 

Besides, the MBG programme suits their biggest retail sellers very well -- no complicated contact with customers, just refund and pay for return of the item.  A large eBay retailer can (and does) absorb such losses easily, but the loss can be a much bigger deal for a small, independent eBay seller.  Still, at least this wasn't a highly valuable, irreplaceable collector's piece, for example -- I've seen sellers reporting fraud of this kind on more expensive items.  I'm sure many of us realized that fraudulent refund requests might become an issue for many sellers as soon as the MBG was introduced.  

The only realistic thing I think you can do is refund (don't bother with having the useless CD returned), and move on.  If you're a persistent and optimistic type, you might want to invest the hours required to try to get through to someone at eBay CS who at least speaks English fluently and see if you can get any satisfaction over this issue, but frankly I think your time is probably more valuable than the value of the CD.  Reporting the buyer may be more helpful in the long run (although not to you personally).  And definitely block this person. 

[sylviebee]

In a case such as this, one has to ask if a bonafide crook would purposely damage an item to get a refund of $7.70.  

OR.....perhaps the item had some fatal flaw and the buyer "pushed" it over the edge to make sure there would be no misunderstanding.

With all of eBay's items too choose from, a shark worthy of the title would pick something with higher returns and stop short of damaging the item beyond repair.

[maximus7001]

Ebay is just as pathetic as the bad buyer in this situation. Whoever is in charge of this should be ashamed of themselves.

So Ladybug, just refund this idiot and it will go away. Although I don't know if it will generate a defect.

If a defect has not already been created, how would the OP refund without creating one?

And make sure to report this idiot to ebay as it "may" help future sellers avoid what happened to you.

[rose-dee]

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@sylviebee wrote:

In a case such as this, one has to ask if a bonafide crook would purposely damage an item to get a refund of $7.70.  

OR.....perhaps the item had some fatal flaw and the buyer "pushed" it over the edge to make sure there would be no misunderstanding.

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Or -- as 'femmefan' pointed out, this guy has been making a habit of getting his entire CD collection for free by uploading the content from the CD to wherever he wants, ruining the CD and then claiming damage to get his refund.  I think that seems more likely. 

A pretty nifty little scam I'd say, and more believable as a "safe" eBay fraud than looking for that one expensive item on which he might actually find himself at the receiving end of a police report.  What seller is going to bother spending time over a ca. $10 CD?  It's a very clever scheme, that is until the buyer gets busted by too many sellers reporting his criminal behaviour. 

Which is why I'd encourage the OP to report this buyer to eBay after the fact, even if it doesn't mean getting the defect or case removed. 

P.S. Is there such as thing as a bona fide crook?  An oxymoron if ever there was one I think! 

[sylviebee]

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@rose-dee wrote:

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P.S. Is there such as thing as a bona fide crook? 

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Absolutely!    

[reallynicestamps]

http://discworld.wikia.com/wiki/Ankh-Morpork_Thieves%27_Guild

Perhaps he has his journeyman papers and is working his way to his master status.

[sylviebee]

That's what I'm talkin' about.

Kinda like a bona fide Bad.

[mr.elmwood]

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@reallynicestamps wrote:

http://discworld.wikia.com/wiki/Ankh-Morpork_Thieves%27_Guild

Perhaps he has his journeyman papers and is working his way to his master status.

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Perhaps they get a laminated wallet size card that identifies them as a Red Seal Bonafide Crook?

Papers! Papers please!

[musicyouneed]

OMG.  I would definitely report this buyer for fraud to ebay.  You even have a picture on the listing of the surface showing it perfect.  I would just refund and move on, don't ask for it back as it will cost you more for the return shipping.  Block the buyer, don't deal with buyer any longer as they are a scam artist.  

What I believe is that they originally had that disc and one of their children put it in the microwave.  They wanted to replace it but  didn't want to put out the money.  

[ladybug2785]

Well we refunded this buyer before the return case deadline. So far there does not seem to be any defect from it.

Made a call to ebay to report this buyer. The guy on the phone said he knew that the cd had been microwaved by looking at the pictures but ebay has no policy to deal with it so there is nothing they can do.

Also reported the bad buyer through the ebay site.

We only sell great condition items. Mostly cd and cassette. We are very picky about condition and take great care with picturing the disc playing surface so the buyers know they will not be getting some scratched up junk.

[pjcdn2005]

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@ladybug2785 wrote:

Well we refunded this buyer before the return case deadline. So far there does not seem to be any defect from it.

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Hopefully you don't get a defect but usually as soon as a  return case is opened and the buyer reports that the item wasn't as described/damaged etc. there is automatic defect even if you refund within minutes. If the buyer used a buyers remorse type reason then there shouldn't be a defect. There also wouldn't be a defect if you fought the case and won but I don't think that is the case here. But if you fight a not as described case and lose, you receive an unresolved case strike which imo is worse than a defect.

[recped]

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@rose-dee wrote:

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@sylviebee wrote:

In a case such as this, one has to ask if a bonafide crook would purposely damage an item to get a refund of $7.70.  

OR.....perhaps the item had some fatal flaw and the buyer "pushed" it over the edge to make sure there would be no misunderstanding.

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Or -- as 'femmefan' pointed out, this guy has been making a habit of getting his entire CD collection for free by uploading the content from the CD to wherever he wants, ruining the CD and then claiming damage to get his refund.  I think that seems more likely. 

A pretty nifty little scam I'd say, and more believable as a "safe" eBay fraud than looking for that one expensive item on which he might actually find himself at the receiving end of a police report.  What seller is going to bother spending time over a ca. $10 CD?  It's a very clever scheme, that is until the buyer gets busted by too many sellers reporting his criminal behaviour. 

Which is why I'd encourage the OP to report this buyer to eBay after the fact, even if it doesn't mean getting the defect or case removed. 

P.S. Is there such as thing as a bona fide crook?  An oxymoron if ever there was one I think! 

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This isn't 1978! If you want a free copy of what's on just about any cd you can download it in a few minutes.

The idea that somebody , anybody is going to go through the hassle of buying a cd on eBay, having it shipped to them, copying it and then returning is laughable.

That Prozac cd is garbage but on a lark I tried to find a copy online that I could download for free......took me a whole 30 seconds to find and 10 minutes to download (with complete artwork).