FEEDBACK extortion by SELLER !!! A NEW twist?

[lina-mallows]

Just when you thought you've run into everything- something NEW crops up- SELLER FEEDBACK EXTORTION !!!

Situation- we made a LARGE PURCHASE (US$600) for an item- that was PICK UP ONLY. The item weighs 800lbs+ and made mostly of glass. So a professional mover was hired to do the PICK-UP and INSURED delivery, as well as our Custom's broker was notified of the shipment's arrival at Canada for entry.

The item- for pick ONLY-up only is located 550 miles from where we live. So- just to be certain that everything was in order- my Brother took the nine hour+ drive to 'check things out."

The seller is ID Verified- but only has PayPal insurance to US$200.oo.

HERE'S THE ISSUE- After physically seeing the item- and checking it out- the seller is DEMANDING PayPal payment- AND POSITIVE FEEDBACK- BEFORE they will allow the PROFESSIONAL MOVERS to pick it up. (Remember 800lbs+- and made of mostly glass)

PayPal payment- NO PROBLEM!
RECEIPT BY MOVERS (A nationally known company) NO PROBLEM!

The SELLER'S demand for POSITIVE FEEDBACK- BEFORE PICK-UP-
BIG PROBLEM !!!

The SELLER has threatened to RELIST the item if POSITIVE FEEDBACK is not coincidental to payment.

Isn't the BUYER'S FEEDBACK supposed to be given AFTER the item has arrived?

Anyone have any thoughts?

(P.S. eBay only considered BUYERS using threats of FEEDBACK extortion- NOT sellers.)

[jakeeangel]

That's not true. I saw something once where a seller was making feedback a condition of the sale. Granted it was a mystery auction but still....

This particular seller noted that positive feedback to him must be posted first before he told you what you won in his mystery auction. That's even after paying too. I watched the listings go poof.

Do you have it in writing? Send it to eBay because it is feedback extortion regardless of who's doing it. It's no different from them saying give me a positive before I'll mail your item. It's still wrong and a violation. And unfortunately its not new.

[lina-mallows]

jakeeangel - I'll stand corrected that I am likely wrong.
I have taken far too literal a flat reading of the rules.

"A seller receives payment from a buyer and then tells the buyer, “Leave me positive Feedback or I will not ship your item.”

As the item we purchased hasn't been paid for- and the rule says after the "seller receives payment".

Yes- we have all the e-mails.
And Yes- we most certainly want the item.
However- if we PAY- then complain to eBay- what are the odds that the seller will simply RETURN the payment- and sell the item to someone else.

Unfortunately- this is not the type of item often found on eBay- and even at $600 PLUS over $1000 in additional expenses (moving- taxes- brokerage) it's still a bargain. We are concerned that the seller's demands are beginning to appear a wee bit suspicious.

[dipmicro]

Is it possible that seller just wants to protect his eBay reputation perhaps after having negative experience with buyers who wanted to cheap-out on shipping?

It's just a feedback, it has no value of proof when it comes to chargeback or PayPal dispute. It's been discussed here.

[lina-mallows]

dipmicro- as the item was PICK UP ONLY- we are paying for ALL shipping and brokerage charges. (These add up to over C$1000- and that's fine with us) There was never a question about the shipping- we knew the weight, and secured proper estimates BEFORE committing to buy.
Shipping is not, and was not, the problem.

THE ITEM HAS BEEN PAID FOR- but feedback has not been posted.

It's the seller DEMANDING positive feedback- before thy allow a NATIONALLY KNOWN- Professional moving Company- from picking up the item that's the problem.

What recourse would we have with eBay, or PayPal, if the item arrives- and the mechanism is DOA? Having left POSITIVE feedback- there isn't much wiggle room.
The SELLER has an EIGHT rated STAR- though they are eBay ID VERIFIED.
Not being around long enough- they only have PayPal protection to US$200.oo. The item cost US$600 BUY IT NOW

The fear is- that if it is DOA- and a claim is made- the SELLER would simply say- RETURN the item- and I will happily REFUND your money.
The shipping, and non-recoverable brokerage fees, for this item is almost $1000.oo. (Taxes we would get back- these REAL costs exceed that of the item) AND- it would take another (or the same) professional mover to return the item at another $600 or so cost!

Just as a note- the seller had 'the nerve' to list the item with 'FREE SHIPPING' most likely to manipulate the listing in the search engine.
Though clearly it was understood at 800lb+ that the item DID NOT INCLUDE any provision for shipping.
The seller clearly lied, saying that the item had been stored in their 'garage'. Upon arrival- one the seller DOES NOT have a garage- and the 800lb+ item was wrapped- and stored OUTSIDE, on their balcony.
It makes you wonder how the seller would think NO ONE would notice this 'factual error' when they came to pick up the item.

[whoscloset]

Get over it.

If you are happy with the item and still want it then leave positive FB for cryin' out loud. If not...don't pay him, leave a neg and get on with your life.

[lina-mallows]

whoscloset- First- the item is US$600, and the cost of delivery is over $1000.

The item has been PAID for - and NOT yet picked up for delivery.

So- the issue remains as leaving FEEDBACK before the item is delivered.

If the only recourse is to RETURN the item- and get refunded the $600-
WHILE LOSING over $1000 to do so- THIS IS A CONCERN I WILL NOT GET OVER !

[whoscloset]

Pay via PayPal and you have the option to file a chargeback if there is a problem with the item upon delivery. PayPal will refund the entire amount including shipping.

Whether or not you have left feedback will be irrelevant.

[lina-mallows]

whoscloset- I agree that there are remedies.
HOWEVER- a REFUND is generally contingent upon RETURN of the item- in this case- 800lb+ of mostly GLASS.

As a BUYER- In any case where I have been granted a REFUND/CHARGEBACK from PayPal- it was always contingent upon return- AND PROOF- of the return of the item.

This seller is only covered to US$200- the item's BIN was US$600

PayPal policy;
"13.7 Claims Procedures. If you escalate a Dispute into a Claim, we will gather information from you and the seller and determine eligibility for reimbursement under the Buyer Protection Programs. Here are some important things to remember about the Claim process:

If a buyer files a Claim asserting receipt of a Significantly Not as Described item, we will generally require the buyer to return the item to the seller at the buyers expense and to Viewable Online Proof of Delivery."

While PayPal Protection sounds wonderful, it is most often a very poor, and costly method of recovering any amount of money for a misrepresented item.

[lina-mallows]

whoscloset- I must ask you one serious question-
How many times have you personally purchased an item on eBay- and left the seller POSITIVE FB BEFORE receiving the item?

If leaving FB BEFORE you receive your merchandise is the way things are commonly done here by POWER SELLERS- then I am really out of the loop on how feedback works.

[dipmicro]

If leaving FB BEFORE you receive your merchandise is the way things are commonly done

No Lina, it's not common and it's clearly an extortion. You are right. What Monique means is that is not practical to fuss about it.

Say you are buying $200 cellphone, you go through registration, spend 20-30 minutes with them and then they ask for mandatory one-time $2 moon-landing hidden fee.

[cumos55]

I have Paypal protection up to $2000

What does the listing say about protection..There are two levels.. lower tier at $200, and higher at $2000

Go read section 13.9 on the following page..

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/UserAgreement/ua/USUA-outside#pbp-policy

I found this some very interesting reading.

[cumos55]

If it is not stated in the listing... Seller should not be making extra demands...

[coxengines]

How many times have you personally purchased an item on eBay- and left the seller POSITIVE FB BEFORE receiving the item?

I do it on a regular basis, albeit with sellers with "reputation".

I have plenty of buyers who leave me FB before they have received the item.

But I digress from your cause, I concede...

If it was that bad a listing, you probably should not have bought - the warning signs are usually out there.

Xena

[lina-mallows]

xenalook- I thank you for your response.
I agree with you. However, when something looks to good to be true- it likely is.

Though- all the BELLS and WHISTLES weren't there.
Having purchased hundreds (read as thousands) of items- some with more questionable listings- nothing really jumped out to say not to buy it.

The listing was from a seller- with less than a 10STAR- but registered since 2004- AND was eBay USER ID VERIFIED.

So- from this point- the seller, even with little history, is certainly not new to eBay. They did list BASIC US$200 PayPal coverage.

The item- A GLASS SHOWCASE FOR CHOCOLATES- weighs 800lb+, so PICK-UP as per the auctions terms were not an issue.

If you have to pick up the item- certainly you are going to find any MAJOR deficiency- wouldn't you?

A few days ago- the item was PAID FOR with PayPal- using a CREDIT CARD.

The SELLER yesterday night, NOW DEMANDS that the item be immediately PICKED-UP! TODAY- WEDNESDAY- and not FRIDAY as been agreed to- and scheduled with a NATIONALLY known MOVING COMPANY.

How much more need we go through to prove we are serious about buying the item ???? A personal visit- arranging the BROKER- PAYING FOR TH ITEM, and hiring a MOVER.

Now the seller has personally frustrated the transaction by threatening to RELIST the item- TODAY if not picked up.

NO WHERE has the seller ever mentioned a REFUND- except as to tell us to keep ALL our e-mails, and he'd be happy to see us in Court!

OK- WHAT AM I MISSING ?????

The seller thinks they have spent enough time dealing with this PICK-UP- yet they HAVE their PAYMENT- and it will certainly take some time for another buyer to pay, and pick-up the item!

We scheduled for a FRIDAY PICK-UP- and the seller knew this last week!

PayPal complaint has been filed and escalated.
eBay has been notified of everything from FEEDBACK EXTORTION, to FEE AVOIDANCE regarding PICK-UP ONLY (the seller listed FREE SHIPPING to take advantage of the 15% reduction in FINAL VALUE FEES).

This isn't over- but the seller at this point certainly shouldn't be expecting anything resembling POSITIVE FEEDBACK !!!!!

[lina-mallows]

Am I allowed to in any way direct people here to the actual auction?

This was a "Dry Confections Display Case" sold within the past 30 days on eBay.com.
So I suppose anyone willing can have a look see at past auctions- it's the only one.

What WARNING SIGNS did I miss?

[cumos55]

No or very poor description.

No terms of sale

Free shipping directed back to description...

Nothing is explained... Everything is as clear as mud...

And... that is just a start..

[lina-mallows]

cumos55 - The seller's description is adequate enough to determine what the item is- and both the serial number, and model number were provided when asked for.
The CASE was physically inspected- at the SELLER'S home- BEFORE PAYMENT was made through PayPal.

So- The minimal description is not an issue.
The terms of sale are PayPal- PICK-UP ONLY. That's clear. And is not a problem.

FREE SHIPPING- yeah- a scam to avoid some eBay FINAL VALUE FEES- reported to eBay- their concern.

So- I am at a loss to figure out why this seller's auction should be viewed suspiciously. 100% POSITIVE FEEDBACk- REGISTERED since 2004- and is eBay ID VERIFIED.

People selling commercial equipment, when they close a business, are not regular eBay sellers- they simply have the odd piece of equipment to dispose of. It is not as if this is a regular seller of used equipment.

This was their item- they still maintain a website- as they sell products by mail- they simply closed their RETAIL location- and put up this auction.

Certainly- USED EQUIPMENT- weighing in excess of 800lb+, that must be picked up IN PERSON- is not an area of eBay where you would expect to find rampant fraud. IT IS NOT AN iPHONE !!

[jakeeangel]

I don't think I would have bought from them either. $200 protection and the item is $600 alone would make me not buy from them.

I think too you're putting too much emphasis on ID Verified. I don't know what that means to you but what it means on eBay is that they confirmed that seller Bob Smith lives at 123 Cherry Tree Lane. Big deal. It doesn't mean they're a good person, with good selling ability or good ethics or good products. It only verifies that he is who he says he is, nothing more.

You bought a $600 item from a seller with only 9 feedbacks??? If that's the right listing, there is absolutely no way I'd buy it from them. He's only gotten 1 feedback for selling. No way. Never. There's no way I would have ever bought from this person. Sorry.

Maybe they have another account with 1000's of transactions but you can't tell that from the listing and it's not something that I'd take a chance on.

[lina-mallows]

jakeeangel- Not everyone out there has a 1000 transactions behind them. We all started from ZERO. And- in the global scheme of things- the risks here for US$600 didn't appear to be that great. In business- a $600 expense, for a piece of equipment like this, is just something that you don't think too much about. Yes- there was some discussion- but this isn't the type of HIGH INCIDENT FRAUD RELATED merchandise being sold.

Unfortunately- this person/seller owned a recently closed store.
They still operate a business- and have a web presence.
They are not, based on further knowledge, not seen in the listing- as fly by night operator.

The item was INSPECTED- in person ( a 500+ mile trip) BEFORE the PayPal payment was made. Consider that- as the item at 800lb+ had to be picked u- the seller could have easily asked for CASH upon pickup. Or- cash before pickup, when the inspection took place. It was the seller that asked for a PayPal payment.

So- having checked the item in person (and yes- you have the correct item) BEFORE the PayPal payment was made......It's the seller's sudden change in not wanting to sell the item that's the issue.

We think that the seller was likely offered MORE money by another buyer- and the are reneging on this transaction to accept the higher amount.

GREED is likley the case here. If the seller plans on a hasty exit from eBay/PayPal as a result of their actions- then they don't really care what we write about them- or how many complaints we file.

We have the CHARGEBACK from VISA pending (they have been notified)- and PAYPAL has the heads up for a potential fraud- a formal complaint has been escalated. So, hopefully this seller's PayPal account has been extremely limited.