eBay

bobenis · ‎12-31-2015

So I bought a pair of shoes 2 days ago.

The BIN was $19.99 and a starting bid of $9.99.

I won them for a bid of 9.99.

The GSP, in usual fashion, calculated the shipping and duty based upon the more expensive $19.99 price which was $16.36US and $6.87 duty as seen in the image linked below:

https://goo.gl/photos/yr6GzuzCGgmrq7xm7

So in theory, via previous purchases I have done, the shipping drops in price as it is always higher at the BIN.

So, winning the shoes at 9.99 means the duty should be truncated and the shipping less at 9.99 vs 16.36 at the BIN of 19.99, right?

Nope! After I won them and went to check out, they are trying to charge me $20.05US, as seen in the link below:

https://goo.gl/photos/vEfRR553F4ouMBF17

I called ebay support and the rep was totally confused and put me on hold 3 times to go chat with his support and no one could give me an answer or figure out why it was charging me more.

The rep advised me to contact the seller and see if they would forgo the GSP and send it to me directly as he could not change whatever ebay was doing with the higher shipping adjustment.

He advised me he would send the GSP team an email and they would get back to me within 48 hours but it has been over 48 hours with no update.

I emailed the seller and advised them of the issue but heard nothing back.

So just now I got an email from ebay to pay for the shoes and when I went to check out look at what the shipping is now!?

https://goo.gl/photos/osUbV9LeVAwRbXkB8

I mean what the heck is going on!?

Perhaps it is the value of our dollar but how should that affect the static set shipping AFTER I have won the item!?

This is a total sham and has class action lawsuit written all over it in my books.

pierrelebel · ‎12-31-2015

The system has worked the same way for several years.

When the BIN is above Cdn$20, you see a shipping charge and a "import fee". That "import fee" includes taxes (GST/HST) and a handling (brokerage) fee of about US$4/5

If the item sells for less than the equivalent of Cdn$ 20.00, the "import fees" goes away as no tax is payable.

However, at that point, the handling fee of US$4/$5 is added to the shipping charge.

In other words, it does not matter what the value of the item is, a handling fee ($4/$5) is payable to Pitney Bowes to handle the transaction on your behalf. If the value of the transaction is above Cdn$20, the fee is included in the "import charge"; below Cdn$20.00 it is added to the shipping charge.

There is no basis for a lawsuit.

Canadians should simply avoid purchasing items listed with GSP unless the high value justifies it. It simply does not work for low price items (under US$50).

marnotom! · ‎12-31-2015

I'm echoing Pierre's observations with an additional observation of my own, which is that Pitney Bowes calls that secondary set of fees "import charges" and not "duty". "Duty" may make up some of the import charges, but most of it is the $4-5 processing fee that Pierre outlines in his post.

If Pitney Bowes (the administrators of the Global Shipping Program) didn't shift that processing fee to the shipping charge for your purchase, you'd still see a $4-5 charge under "import charges" but it wouldn't be duty or taxes. The shipping charge, however, would be what you saw on the listing page.

As an aside, Bobenis, if you ever need to contact eBay again with a GSP concern, ask the customer service rep to put you through to a Global Shipping Program Specialist. For whatever reason, information on these specialists (probably Pitney Bowes employees) is not communicated to buyers like you and me on any GSP information page, but they're out there.

bobenis · ‎12-31-2015

OK but if that is the case why not be transparent about it?
Why not advise in the shipping details that the shipping present will be an additional $4-5 more?
Also why not add that amount in the shipping amount to begin with and then do the true duty of $2 etc vs mixing it up?
If anyone sees the shipping as $16 at the BIN of $20 then the shipping, in theory, should be less at $10, even if there was a hidden $4 added onto it, right?
Also, why was the shipping $20.05 2 days ago and now it is $20.53 today?
Can you offer an explanation on that?

Ebay does not allow details and shipping amounts to be changed once a bid is place or the auction is over so how can they do it?

marnotom! · ‎01-01-2016

@bobenis wrote:

OK but if that is the case why not be transparent about it?
Why not advise in the shipping details that the shipping present will be an additional $4-5 more?

I'm not sure what you mean by "shipping present".

When the GSP was first inflicted on us, items with a value of less than C$20 did have "import charges" as a separate line item, but it seems that people didn't understand that those weren't taxes and duty being charged so that was changed. It was an even bigger deal in Australia which has a tax/duty-free threshold of AU$1000. You can imagine how much irritation there was from Aussies who felt they were being dinged in taxes for an otherwise tax-free purchase.

I agree that the original method was more transparent, especially given that there's very little transparency in the calculation and levying of the import charges in the first place, but that's how it is, unfortunately.

@bobenis wrote:

Also why not add that amount in the shipping amount to begin with and then do the true duty of $2 etc vs mixing it up?

As far as Pitney Bowes/the GSP is concerned, they're the ones acting as importer and they're the ones paying the taxes and duty. Part of the "import charges" you pay is a reimbursement of their payment. Legally or technically speaking, you're not paying duty and taxes, which is one reason why PB can't/won't give you a receipt with those details.

Besides, what Pitney Bowes ends up paying may be a bit different once the item is received and taxes and duty can be properly calculated on the item based on what they see, rather than use the information that the seller has provided which may not be accurate. There's probably some items where PB pays a bit more than what the listing page indicates, and some where they pay a bit less. You saw what happened with the shipping charge. (More on that later.)

@bobenis wrote:

If anyone sees the shipping as $16 at the BIN of $20 then the shipping, in theory, should be less at $10, even if there was a hidden $4 added onto it, right?

I'm a bit confused by your math. A GSP shipping charge of US$16 for a US$20 item won't have the import charges added to it because the item is subject to taxes and duty, seeing as US$20 converts to an amount over C$20. (Remember, the tax/duty-free threshold is based on Canadian dollars, not US dollars). US$10 is--for now, anyway--less than C$20. The amount in taxes/duty is nil, leaving only the US$4-5 processing fee which is now added to the shipping charge.

Let me know if I've missed anything or got hold of the wrong end of the stick with your question.

@bobenis wrote:

Also, why was the shipping $20.05 2 days ago and now it is $20.53 today?
Can you offer an explanation on that?

You offered what I think is a pretty decent explanation: the exchange rate changed. Pitney Bowes has to pay Canadian logistics and shipping companies, but they have American dollars to play with.

@bobenis wrote:

Ebay does not allow details and shipping amounts to be changed once a bid is place or the auction is over so how can they do it?

I haven't purchased a GSP auction item with a "buy it now" attached, but my understanding is that on the "commit to purchase" page, you should have seen a updated shipping and import charges along with the item price.

On the desktop/laptop version, it does note that the "import charges" will be confirmed at checkout, although there's nothing to that effect about the shipping charges. (This is probably a hangover from the GSP's original set-up.) On the mobile version, the "import charges" are described as an "estimate" with the final amount calculated at checkout.

In both cases, buyers can back out of the sale if the import charges are way out of line with what's stated on the listing page. Not sure if it works that way with an auction item, but under normal circumstances the final charges shouldn't be way out of line with those stated in the listing page anyway.

bobenis · ‎01-01-2016

A typo..."present shipping" is what I meant vs "shipping present".

bobenis · ‎01-01-2016

My math synopsis above is regarding the "floating" shipping charges that increase in value as the item's price increases as people bid on it.
Not only do the shipping charges rise as the item gets more expensive so does the duty.
That part makes sense, however, as the shipping charges for the item are calculated as the cost for the seller to ship the item to PB in KY and then PB to send it to the end recipient.
As a result that amount should remain static regardless of the items final or current value rather than increasing as the item becomes more valuable.

I have seen multiple items in different locations that have vastly differing shipping and duty values placed on them, many of which are a lesser BIN but with higher duty and shipping charges than the same item from another seller that is priced higher.

It makes no sense.

Regarding the fluctuating shipping charge, that is silly, regardless if true, as that means we could wait a few days and see if that amount lessens.
Again that is a final checkout amount and thus should remain at the same cost immediately after purchase rather than fluctuate.

marnotom! · ‎01-01-2016

@bobenis wrote:

My math synopsis above is regarding the "floating" shipping charges that increase in value as the item's price increases as people bid on it.

Not only do the shipping charges rise as the item gets more expensive so does the duty.

That part makes sense, however, as the shipping charges for the item are calculated as the cost for the seller to ship the item to PB in KY and then PB to send it to the end recipient.

As a result that amount should remain static regardless of the items final or current value rather than increasing as the item becomes more valuable.

I've never known shipping charges to increase on a GSP auction item as bid prices have increased. In your case, you paid a higher "shipping" price than the one stated in the BIN price because you won the item for a lower price than the BIN price and that amount was below the recognized tax/duty-free limit of C$20. However, unlike the BIN, there was not a separate line item for the processing charges (import charges) because those were folded into the item's shipping price.

On a US$10 item, you're still paying the same amount to Pitney Bowes as you would if there were a tad more transparency and the processing charges were kept as a separate line item.

Remember, once an item's value goes above C$20, all processing charges will be added to tax and duty charges in the "import charges". Import charges will increase over the course of an auction (assuming the item sees bids), but the shipping charge will remain, as you say, static.

@bobenis wrote:

I have seen multiple items in different locations that have vastly differing shipping and duty values placed on them, many of which are a lesser BIN but with higher duty and shipping charges than the same item from another seller that is priced higher.
It makes no sense.

Without having an example from you to work with, I'd have to speculate that some of this difference is likely due to how much information the seller has provided on the item. If the seller doesn't specify the item's country of origin, for example, the item may end up seeing duties applied to it that wouldn't be charged if the item originated from a country that was in a Canadian free trade zone. The difference in shipping charge could be due to the sellers charging different shipping rates for getting the item to the Global Shipping Center in Kentucky, or it could be due to differing information on the item's packaged weight, if the seller has even provided this information.

@bobenis wrote:

Regarding the fluctuating shipping charge, that is silly, regardless if true, as that means we could wait a few days and see if that amount lessens.

Again that is a final checkout amount and thus should remain at the same cost immediately after purchase rather than fluctuate.

In theory, as your payment is being converted from Canadian dollars to American dollars, you may well end up paying the same amount in Canadian dollars in either case.

pierrelebel · ‎01-01-2016

"but if that is the case why not be transparent about it?"

I totally agree with you.

In addition to selling price, full disclosure would require each listing to show:

1) shipping cost by seller to eBay's distribution centre (payable to seller)

2) shipping cost from distribution centre to buyer (payable to Pitney Bowes)

3) taxes (GST/HST/PST) and duty (if applicable) (payable to Pitney Bowes who remits that amount to the Canadian government)

4) service charge (brokerage fee) by Pitney Bowes (payable to Pitney Bowes)

However, we do not live in a perfect world and I frankly do not expect eBay and Pitney Bowes (both American companies) to ever change their ways.

As stated earlier, in the meantime Canadian buyers should simply avoid low price listings offering GSP or - if they want to spend the time - ask sellers to offer direct shipment to Canada using USPS.

00nevermind00 · ‎01-01-2016

@pierrelebel wrote:
As stated earlier, in the meantime Canadian buyers should simply avoid low price listings offering GSP or - if they want to spend the time - ask sellers to offer direct shipment to Canada using USPS.

That is the single most sensible statement anyone here can make about the GSP.

Keep this in mind: every time anyone makes a GSP purchase (even while "holding their nose"), they are supporting the program and helping make sure it continues in its current flawed format.

Ebay claims that the GSP is a huge success (no doubt boosted by a few things such as sellers being enrolled by stealth). They have the numbers and we don't, so we can't counter their claims. The only thing those of us who thoroughly despise the program can do is refrain from adding to those numbers.

bobenis · ‎01-16-2016

OK...how does this make sense?

I won the shoes for $9.99 and yet the email I just received says I won them for $16.69?

Now, if I did win them for that price then the overage charges on my shipping would make better sense to me as this would come out to over $20CAN thus import charges.

Would love to hear your ideas behind why ebay is telling me I paid $6.68 more than I actually did.

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=30E81AE50B5B3FEF!63662&authkey=!AF4Cye25ly1eKlk&v=3&ithint=pho...

marnotom! · ‎01-17-2016

@bobenis wrote:

OK...how does this make sense?
I won the shoes for $9.99 and yet the email I just received says I won them for $16.69?
Now, if I did win them for that price then the overage charges on my shipping would make better sense to me as this would come out to over $20CAN thus import charges.
Would love to hear your ideas behind why ebay is telling me I paid $6.68 more than I actually did.

You just received an email for an auction item that you won before 2015 ended?

What are your shipping charges, anyway?

bobenis · ‎01-17-2016

I didn't win these before 2015 ended, the date in that linked photo shows Jan 1, 2016.

Ebay emailed me to tell me the shoes had arrived at PB.

Shipping charges were $20.05, as stated in my initial post.

marnotom! · ‎01-17-2016

@bobenis wrote:

I didn't win these before 2015 ended, the date in that linked photo shows Jan 1, 2016.
Ebay emailed me to tell me the shoes had arrived at PB.
Shipping charges were $20.05, as stated in my initial post.

Hmm. The ending date and time on the listing page are completely different than what's in your screen shot. But that's neither here nor there.

So, as you're in BC like me, you'd just be paying GST on the shoes. The import charges that currently show up on the listing are US$6.87, which means that if they sold for the BIN price of $19.99, $1.00 of the import charges would be GST and the other $5.87 would be Pitney Bowes lovely little collection of sundry processing charges.

US$9.99 + US$5.87= US$16.86, which is pretty close to US$16.69.

Since the import charges fluctuate with the exchange rates (I think there's some conversion of some of the fees that make up the import charges from Canadian dollars to US dollars), I'd say what you're getting in your eBay notice is the price of the shoes plus the Pitney Bowes processing charges.

dreamturtle.ty · ‎01-17-2016

I would just like to echo 00nevermind00 sentiments,

I've asked some US sellers if they are able to cancel the GSP portion of the transaction, and most of the time :

A) They dont know about the GSP and what it means for the buyer (or the seller)

B) They dont remember or vaguely remember signing up for it

C) They dont know how to opt out of it

D) They cant cancel out the GSP or dont know how to (or wont)

Then at this point, ive seen some US sellers get downright miserable towards Ebay for interfering with their business.

When we hear "International Shipping Program", i think most of us think shipping to Europe and Asia. So its a shock to think there is an extra charge for a little cross border shopping. I cant help but wonder how much of this program is political in the sense that the governments want their fair share of import duties fees and tariffs. BY societal rules, we have a strong culture for cross border shopping for both Canadians and Americans. So this program is also an afront to our sense of tradition and identity!

Now i just Avoid US sellers that have opted into the GSP program.

Also, in protest, ive raised the shipping rates for US buyers and continue to sell in Canadian $$$.

-It works for me!

pjcdn2005 · ‎01-17-2016

Also, in protest, ive raised the shipping rates for US buyers and continue to sell in Canadian $$$.

For many Canadian sellers, the majority of our items are sold to buyers in the U.S. so raising shipping rates to the U.S. just to be spiteful wouldn't make a lot of sense.

But I'm bit confused by your statement since all of your listings have free shipping to the U.S.

marnotom! · ‎01-17-2016

marnotom! wrote:

US$9.99 + US$5.87= US$16.86, which is pretty close to US$16.69.

Whoops. My math's off. That sum is actually US$15.86. Still, given that the US value of the Canadian dollar is about two and a half cents lower that it was at the time the auction closed, I still think that what's happened here is that the "import charges" that were snuck into the shipping charge at the time of payment have now shifted to the item price.