Comments about the Global Shipping Program

[kalvin@ebay.com]

Feel free to share your thoughts about the Global Shipping Program here. 

A few questions to get the ball rolling:

• What has worked well for you with the Global Shipping Program?
• Any ideas to help improve the experience for Canadian buyers?
• What has deterred you from buying items offered using the Global Shipping Program?
• How have you managed to search for items outside the program?

Please try & keep the comments constructive 🙂

If you have any questions about the program, please post them here.

[afantiques]

"No. PB is the 'importer of record' (the person or entity responsible for the import as far as law and taxes are concerned). They import a  consignment of packages.. There is no casual import exemption."

Not familiar with this but noted its mention while researching NAFTA and Canadian Duty.  More page turning or key stroking ahead, so much for having free time during retirement , it doesn't exist.  Are you privy to additional info or sources other than what was mentioned above.

I am familiar with commercial (non postal) shipping practices and international  customs paperwork and customs clearance practices.

"These do not constitute a 'casual import'"

Are they then reclassified as commercial goods? Or am I confusing "casual imports" and "casual goods" and/or they the same or did you mean "casual goods" and not "casual imports"

Goods or imports, neither term applies. The items are fiscally and legally the same as a container load of widgets from China destined for a Canadian wholesaler.

 "no chance of the buyer being asked for more money later."

The T&C's of the GSP states under #3[i] Exclusions, in short, that you [the buyer] are ultimately responsible for any monies owed, etc.   If the buyer is bound #1b.[ii] Power of Attorney clause, why would the same buyer not be bound by the exclusions clause.  Would it not be logical to say that the buyer is bound by all the T&C's of the GSP?

The quoted paragraph is pretty much legal boilerplate, ticking a possible liability box, not something that is going to happen. Bulk is not broken till the items are cleared inwards, so no individual item is in a position to be assessed further for tax. The paragraph may exist to cover some unlikely situation concerning a whole shipment, or it may be there just to cover asses.

[afantiques]

"No. PB is the 'importer of record' (the person or entity responsible for the import as far as law and taxes are concerned). They import a  consignment of packages.. There is no casual import exemption."

Not familiar with this but noted its mention while researching NAFTA and Canadian Duty.  More page turning or key stroking ahead, so much for having free time during retirement , it doesn't exist.  Are you privy to additional info or sources other than what was mentioned above.

I am familiar with commercial (non postal) shipping practices and international  customs paperwork and customs clearance practices.

"These do not constitute a 'casual import'"

Are they then reclassified as commercial goods? Or am I confusing "casual imports" and "casual goods" and/or they the same or did you mean "casual goods" and not "casual imports"

Goods or imports, neither term applies. The items are fiscally and legally the same as a container load of widgets from China destined for a Canadian wholesaler.

 "no chance of the buyer being asked for more money later."

The T&C's of the GSP states under #3[i] Exclusions, in short, that you [the buyer] are ultimately responsible for any monies owed, etc.   If the buyer is bound #1b.[ii] Power of Attorney clause, why would the same buyer not be bound by the exclusions clause.  Would it not be logical to say that the buyer is bound by all the T&C's of the GSP?

The quoted paragraph is pretty much legal boilerplate, ticking a possible liability box, not something that is going to happen. Bulk is not broken till the items are cleared inwards, so no individual item is in a position to be assessed further for tax. The paragraph may exist to cover some unlikely situation concerning a whole shipment, or it may be there just to cover asses.

[arlene_v]

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@marnotom! wrote:

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Arlene can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she noted that with the GSP, only GST is charged in provinces with a GST/PST combination, while those in HST provinces have to pay HST.

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Tom, as I recall Pjcdn first mentioned this with regards to your smartphone purchase, and then I looked into this out of curiosity.

Seems that buyers in non-HST provinces only get charged GST, they don't  get charged PST or, in the case of Quebec, QST under the GSP. 

When I look at the GSP bot it reminds me of  online language translation programs! 

This type of tax and duty calculator probably works very well indeed for those crates of widgets coming from China for wholesale .... not so great with the complexity and variety of goods and sellers on this site ..from gongs to guitars to garters,  a program that relies so heavily on this kind of automated calculation with no further adjustments  is just not suited for this venue and all the variables encountered here. 

No surprise buyers and sellers are not happy with it.   

[mwc1942]

'"I am familiar with commercial (non postal) shipping practices and international  customs paperwork and customs clearance practices."

My question was incomplete, it should have read, Are you privy to additional info or sources other than what was mentioned above that you can share? Nothing else was implied.

Thanks  

[highland.2112]

Seems to me that offering a seller 5 - 10% more for an item if they will forego the Global Ship Program, might work.

[marnotom!]

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00nevermind00 wrote:

Semantics. PB can call them anything they wish, in the long run some of the money ends up going to the CRA. And if duty is charged on an item that is later discovered to have been manufactured in a NAFTA country, it becomes an overpayment of duty. No matter what PB calls it.

Back when the phone companies subsidized the local service with long-distance charges, they were monopolies. PB isn't a monopoly.

But are buyers really going to think of Ma Bell when they're overcharged? Are they really going to remember they're paying "import charges" (whatever those are), not "taxes"? Or are they going to think "I've been overcharged and didn't receive a refund"?

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I don't follow your thinking on the subject of monopolies.  I can't see what this has to do with anything.

[00nevermind00]

When you're a monopoly, you can do things your way without worrying about the competition taking business away from you.

That is why I think you're comparing apples and oranges when you talk about what the phone companies used to do.

[arlene_v]

On the subject of monopolies I decided to look at other companies that provide the same services as Pitney Bowes.

Marnotom! has often mentioned "Borderfree" so this AM I decided to check them out in detail.

A company called Overstock sells on eBay using the GSP, and also uses the services of Borderfree, so this makes a comparison fairly easy. .

If an online shopper visits the Overstock site the final purchase and shipping  is managed by Borderfree, much the same as what PB is trying to do with the Global Shipping Program on eBay.

So, this is what a buyer in Ontario  sees when confirming to buy an item from Overstock, with the Borderfree service

Now here is what the same buyer sees here on eBay with a very similar  item from Overstock listed through the GSP.

The Overstock items listed on eBay are uniformly cheaper than on the Overstock site. BUT,  the shipping and import charges are significantly higher for identical products listed under the GSP here on eBay vs Borderfree. 

On the Overstock site you can combine shipping using the services of Borderfree, which you can't do on eBay when buying the exact items from Overstock via the GSP.

Very  large items are listed on the Overstock site (large carpets, bulky furniture), but as a Canadian buyer I am alerted to the fact that this item is not eligible for shipping to my location prior to my attempting to purchase it. A notice comes up saying "Item not available for shipping to your location"

The exact items are listed here under the GSP by Overstock, but offer no such warning ...and will probably be "confiscated" in Kentucky should a Canadian buyer purchase these through the GSP.

Just thought I would share these discoveries here ..... interesting to note the differences. 

In this very limited comparison Borderfree is providing Overstock and its customers with great service ... PB  and the GSP is doing quite the opposite for eBay and its customers. 

[00nevermind00]

Very interesting Arlene.  The Egyptian cotton pillowcases end up being more expensive if purchased on eBay through GSP than on the other site, because the total price of $80.90 is in US dollars. At the current rate of exchange, you have to add approximately 10% to that total, bringing the GSP price around $90 in Canada Bucks. The other site is priced in Canadian dollars so you're looking at $85 for that site vs $90 for GSP.

And your comment about ineligible items vs "confiscated" items is dead on. Those "confiscated" items are yet another sour grape for buyers. Yes the buyers are made whole (as they d&mn well should be!) but they wanted the item. Otherwise they wouldn't have bought it to begin with.

[arlene_v]

The interesting thing to note is that the "tax and duty" costs calculated by Borderfree for these examples are lower than 13% HST for Ontario. 

I surmise that this is because Borderfree's  program fees are added to  the price of the item, and so the tax (and duty) will be calculated based on the actual purchase amount.

What a difference this makes to a potential buyer's perception. No-one likes to see huge tax and duty, and this really goes a way to making the buyer experience very positive, unlike the GSP model.

[mwc1942]

Multiple KUDOS  -  on effort alone.

[aubreyclay56]

how does gsp charge on gold and silver bullion duty when there isnt any to import from usa to canada this is a scam ,i repeat a total scam not onlly illeagal to rip canadian buyers off ,in this way ,i guess they make up there own bs to scam people and ebay dont care,makes me sick

[marnotom!]

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@00nevermind00 wrote:

When you're a monopoly, you can do things your way without worrying about the competition taking business away from you.

That is why I think you're comparing apples and oranges when you talk about what the phone companies used to do.

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I still don't see how structuring one's fees for services so that one service subsidizes another is something that only monopolies do or can get away with doing.

Here's another angle:  I plunked down $8.99 plus GST for a quinoa green salad (Hey, I am from the west coast) on the ferry from Vancouver today.  I started wondering how the company that produced the salad for the ferry cafeteria calculated the cost of the salad item to the cafeteria contractor or to a produce wholesaler.  After all, vegetables aren't the same price all year round.  Surely there are times when the company makes more profit from the salad than others?  Yet I bet that salad will still be $8.99 later in the year when lettuce, cucumbers, carrots, and tomatoes are more plentiful and available.  Is the company ripping off its customer base in the summer and autumn? 

[marnotom!]

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@arlene_v wrote:

On the subject of monopolies I decided to look at other companies that provide the same services as Pitney Bowes.

Marnotom! has often mentioned "Borderfree" so this AM I decided to check them out in detail.

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If other companies provide the same services as Pitney Bowes, then Pitney Bowes doesn't have a monopoly, does it?  😉

*ducks and runs*

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@arlene_v wrote:

The Overstock items listed on eBay are uniformly cheaper than on the Overstock site. BUT,  the shipping and import charges are significantly higher for identical products listed under the GSP here on eBay vs Borderfree. 

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This is what I've found with my few informal surveys of various e-tailers using services such as Borderfree.  It seems that some of the charges of the shipping service are shifted to the price of the item.

Having said that, I checked one of Overstock's eBay listings and even though it had the "made in USA" logo on it, there was nothing about the United States being the item's country of origin stated in the Item Specifics section of the listing.  That probably goes some ways to explaining the higher import charges for the eBay listing.

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@arlene_v wrote:

Just thought I would share these discoveries here ..... interesting to note the differences. 

In this very limited comparison Borderfree is providing Overstock and its customers with great service ... PB  and the GSP is doing quite the opposite for eBay and its customers. 

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Depends on what you mean by "great service" I think.  I see that Borderfree's consumer terms and conditions state that items are purchased for non-commercial use, just as with the GSP.  I wonder if they don't provide receipts with GST/HST numbers, either.

However, there does seem to be a provision for refunds of fees, which are termed as an "estimate".

http://www.borderfree.com/consumer-terms

I also find the mention of Pitney-Bowes in the Borderfree T&C to be intriguing.

Thanks for doing all this legwork, Arlene.  It is indeed interesting!

[arlene_v]

LOL, Tom, no need to duck, I only mentioned monopolies as a segue to the Borderfree post!

Anyway,  sad thing is that the Overstock prices on eBay  offer customers great deals, potentially, but these are lost  because the GSP is not properly set up, or rather, such a slipshod job has been done with implementation .... thousands of otherwise competitive listings, probably the most competitive in North America,  attract unnecessary "import charges" and shipping charges.

What does this lead to? Angry, dissatisfied buyers, who might even not ever come back to eBay to shop here again, because it is all too reminiscent of those airline "deals" with the advertised ticket price of $79 ending up at $450.

Buyers do not like this. 

The price difference is $5 between sites, not a great amount of money ... but on one site the buyer feels the deal is fair, on the other... buyers see extra charges and see red.  

This is what is interesting ... and eBay and PB need to look at buyer perception. 

[arlene_v]

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@marnotom! wrote:

http://www.borderfree.com/consumer-terms

I also find the mention of Pitney-Bowes in the Borderfree T&C to be intriguing.

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Yes, I noticed that yesterday as well, but I think they are only involved with the shipping part, because Borderfree is an Israeli  company (as I understand) , totally separate from PB. 

What stands refreshingly apart with Borderfree is that there is a line for "Duties and tax" and the amount the buyer has been charged, all nicely spelled out.

Borderfree has no problem disclosing the "estimate". Why does PB have a problem with this? 

On a related note, I am really surprised that the bigger sellers using this program are not raising more of a stink about the way this program is calculating "import costs" here, making their listings very uncompetitive. 

This is a very significant problem  and it really needs looking into ASAP.  It defies belief that a calculator being used to calculate  import charges is unable to identify a newly introduced item specific for place of manufacture. LOL, this is only one of the most important fields needed to make an accurate calculation.

Of the numerous problems with this program, this is the one that needs looking into ASAP.

While it is true that individual Canadian buyers have no clout, I am sure that big name sellers do, and eBay and PB had better get their GSP house in order. 

[kxeron]

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@arlene_v wrote:

Borderfree has no problem disclosing the "estimate". Why does PB have a problem with this? 

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This is an easy question to answer: Liability. PBI wants to shield itself with as many invented terms as possible in order to avoid legal accountability. This is why they invent terms like "Import Charges" instead of having a breakdown because the moment they have that breakdown of charges, if a cent doesn't make it to where their breakdown stated it should, PBI's on the hook for fraud, possibly tax fraud. Not only that, it opens them up for more stringent auditing by foreign governments should they proceed to charge foreign taxes and duty.

PBI along with eBay invent terminology to avoid all of  that and get to re-invent the law under its own views through abuses of contract law. On eBay, Duty/Taxes don't exist — "Import Charges" exist and are defined as PBI and eBay see fit.

The United States has a history of companies creating contracts with invented terms in order to dodge real-world legal ramifications and accountability. This is the norm in the United States for doing business and is unlikely to change. Those businesses then proceed to try to exert those business practices internationally and using the same contracts and so forth everywhere.

[kxeron]

To follow-up to myself as much as I hate double-posting:

Likely PBI has little qualms with Borderfree spelling everything out because with Borderfree it seems to be under the Borderfree banner, not PBI initiating the charges themselves, so PBI are off the hook in that respect and they'd just tell auditors to go after Borderfree should something go amiss, but with the GSP, PBI's the programme administrator and charges are done under the PBI name.

Too, eBay as well as a business partner with PBI may have qualms about accountability as well, they may as well not want to encounter liability in the same vein as I described already so they and PBI both create the terms with invented phrases to shield them from any such concerns.

[nubian_treasures]

This is the answer centre. I didn't see any questions in your post.

My advice: don't buy from sellers who use the global shipping program.

[00nevermind00]

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@marnotom! wrote:

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I still don't see how structuring one's fees for services so that one service subsidizes another is something that only monopolies do or can get away with doing.

Here's another angle:  I plunked down $8.99 plus GST for a quinoa green salad (Hey, I am from the west coast) on the ferry from Vancouver today.  I started wondering how the company that produced the salad for the ferry cafeteria calculated the cost of the salad item to the cafeteria contractor or to a produce wholesaler.  After all, vegetables aren't the same price all year round.  Surely there are times when the company makes more profit from the salad than others?  Yet I bet that salad will still be $8.99 later in the year when lettuce, cucumbers, carrots, and tomatoes are more plentiful and available.  Is the company ripping off its customer base in the summer and autumn? 

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I hope you enjoyed your salad! But honestly, I'm wondering what the point is here. We seem to be splitting hair that has already been split a few times. You can have the last split. I'll stick to my point of view and you'll stick to yours, which is probably what happens in most cases on these endless GSP threads.

Here are a few things that I think we can all agree on. Please feel free to add more, I'm just jotting them down from memory:

• The GSP is an apallingly poorly conceived and designed scheme.
• The designers tried so hard to appeal to US sellers that they totally forgot about the other side of the equation: the international buyers.
• Sellers are enrolled into the program without their knowledge or consent, even when what they sell is totally inappropriate for this expensive scheme.
• Hardly anyone is going to read the legalese gobbledigook found in the T&C; if your first language isn't English (and even if it is), good luck trying to get through that stuff!
• Ebay says that items under $50 aren't a "good fit" for GSP, so why are we still seeing GSP shipping on 99¢ items with depressing regularity?
• The GSP has size limits, so why are sellers able to add GSP shipping to items which do not meet these limits?
• Why are GSP invoices still not broken down for taxes, service fee, etc. after many months of insistent demands from Canadian (and maybe other) buyers?
• Why are overpayments not refunded to the buyers? It would be the decent thing to do!
• Why are sellers still allowed to list with GSP without providing a country of origin, when we know that this may result on a non-refundable overcharge to the buyer?

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones that came to me while typing.

[arlene_v]

Yes, it's pretty obvious why they are dragging their feet here.

But,  analyze whether this boondoggle is of any real use to eBay in the long run, doesn't it seem very short-sighted? So I believe, maybe naively, that eBay might have signed a contract with PB, and might be more than eager to get out of it, hence some of the odd moves on their part. 

Normally I don't look at listings for new items on eBay, but when I compare identical new items offered under the GSP  to other online sites, eBay is rapidly losing ground to those other sites.

Big time.

On other sites combined shipping is offered, as are deep shipping discounts (sometimes even free shipping),  when applicable, accurate, upfront tax and duty costs are clearly provided.

On other sites  buyers do not have to interact with  reluctant, inexperienced, sometimes hostile US sellers, unlike the situation here on eBay.

Instead, buyers are dealing with motivated professional sellers, with costs that are clear, and spelled out. 

So, how exactly is the GSP benefiting eBay in terms of international sales, in the long run?

eBay should really take note of these  threads, and the angry, hostile posts from buyers who are losing their appetite for this unprofessional site. 

We are the canary in the coal mine.