eBay

ut.babe · ‎09-02-2013

Another thread on the GSP but the more the merrier.... maybe they will get the message. These comments are based on my own experience and opinions.

I purchased a figurine that arrived with minimal packing material and single boxed. I asked the seller how he had packaged it ... he said it was in its original manufacturers box, double boxed with lots of packaing. He was shocked to hear it arrived in a single box - the manufacturers box was missing - and minimal packing.

Upon complaint, ebay (Paypal) answer was to refund me the SELLERS shipping cost, not Pitney Bowes (the GSP provider they use), thereby stinging the seller who was in no way responsible.

Another item was switched from a box to an envelope. Thank heavens it was unbreakable.

Also, 98% of the items I buy cross-border (I'm in Canada) would not even be valued for customs duty, their price is too low. Yet the GSP charges it anyway.

My guess and opinion? Pitney Bowes is repackaging items to lower the weight and the end cost of their shipping, plus pocketing the excessive customs duties. What other reason for repackaging items?

Plus you pay for the seller to ship to them, and then for them to ship to the buyer. AND you often have to purchase before knowing the end cost - is that even legal? And then you are on the hook for the item anyway.

The only people happy with this is Pitney Bowes - they are getting rich off this unbelievable scam. I will not use them for anything ever, and have in fact chosen to not use them for my business either. I have returned all the shipping equipment I had from them and refuse to deal with them on any level.

I WILL NOT PURCHASE FROM SELLERS USING THE GSP PROGRAM... EVER. I'd rather do without.

Many times when I explain why I'd love to buy from them but don't the seller is unaware of the issues and takes the item OFF the GSP (Yes they can do this!) Then I purchase 🙂 So buyers, check with your sellers, give them the chance to accomodate. I can understand it simplifying their shipping but they don't realize the cost.

Wake up Ebay and wake up sellers to the stupidity of this scheme. Its costing you buyers.

I have been buying on ebay for 13 years and have close to 2900 100% feedbacks. I purchase everything under the sun on here but have started looking elsewhere to find the items I need - even if I pay a little more. I just will not support this program in any way, shape or form.

marnotom! · ‎09-04-2013

The pattern I've been seeing is that posters complain that they're being charged fees unjustly or illegally. When evidence is presented of their legitimacy, that's when they vamoose.

i*m-stilll-here · ‎09-04-2013

So, then, the scary/odd thing is that you really seem to believe that experienced ebayers don't know that there is an un-enforced law on the books that all items imported by mail over $20 can be legally charged taxes.................

............. and that you're teaching them about it????

marnotom! · ‎09-04-2013

@i*m-stilll-here wrote:
So, then, the scary/odd thing is that you really seem to believe that experienced ebayers don't know that there is an un-enforced law on the books that all items imported by mail over $20 can be legally charged taxes.................

............. and that you're teaching them about it????

There seem to be quite a few people posting on this board that are unaware of the fact that personal imports can be assessed GST/PST/HST and sometimes duties.

I don't know how you know that these users are "experienced" or not but many of them do make a claim along the lines of they've never had to pay anything extra to receive their items before, therefore the GSP must be "bogus" or a "scam". That's a scary and odd conclusion to make.

The GSP isn't "bogus" or a "scam" just because it's collecting taxes due. Agree or disagree?

ut.babe · ‎09-04-2013

"i*m-still-here wrote:

When they started going after and accusing buyers/posters of tax avoidance when they complained about he GSP ...................... I was surprised that I was the only who reacted to that nonsense.

Probably because you misunderstood the posts. I haven't read any accusations of tax avoidance in all this discussion of the GSP."

He wasn't talking about this thread in particular.. He was talking about the forums and GSP discussions in general, as I was in my post - which he was referring to. I sort of thought that was pretty clear...

"The pattern I've been seeing is that posters complain that they're being charged fees unjustly or illegally. When evidence is presented of their legitimacy, that's when they vamoose."

That may be true in some cases and probably is... but usually if someone feels they have been helped they will say thanks before 'vamoosing'.

And I'll even agree with your last post but people don't have to be made to feel stupid when explaining it to them. Or spoken condescendingly to because they didn't do an hours worth of research and reading before they went and bought an item.

marnotom! · ‎09-05-2013

@ut.babe wrote:
@"i*m-still-here wrote:
When they started going after and accusing buyers/posters of tax avoidance when they complained about he GSP ...................... I was surprised that I was the only who reacted to that nonsense.

Probably because you misunderstood the posts. I haven't read any accusations of tax avoidance in all this discussion of the GSP."

He wasn't talking about this thread in particular.. He was talking about the forums and GSP discussions in general, as I was in my post - which he was referring to. I sort of thought that was pretty clear...

"The pattern I've been seeing is that posters complain that they're being charged fees unjustly or illegally. When evidence is presented of their legitimacy, that's when they vamoose."

That may be true in some cases and probably is... but usually if someone feels they have been helped they will say thanks before 'vamoosing'.

And I'll even agree with your last post but people don't have to be made to feel stupid when explaining it to them. Or spoken condescendingly to because they didn't do an hours worth of research and reading before they went and bought an item.

And I was responding in the context of you two referring to the forums and GSP discussions in general. I sort of thought that was pretty clear, too. 😉

I'm not sure I agree with your point about people who go off on half-baked rants turning around and thanking someone who has helped them with correct information, particularly on matters concerning money. Discussions about money and its use tend to get pretty heated, be they on these discussion boards or elsewhere, and I honestly can't imagine many people posting something along the lines of "Thank you for letting me know that most of my eBay purchases since 2008 should have been subject to taxes from the feds but I've obviously just been lucky all this time." It's just not going to happen.

And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to brook a lot of sympathy for anybody--be it a seller who buyer--who gets involved with the GSP without understanding what it's about. There's a "plain speak" help page on the GSP that sums it up reasonably well if it pains anybody to go through the terms and conditions page. I know I'm not the only one who's getting tired of all the anti-GSP rants full of misconceptions. It's just that I'm now one of the few that tries to present a more accurate view of the program.

To paraphrase a post on the .com site's International Trading Board, it would seem that anything other than vitriol-drenched ranting against the GSP is seen as "support" for it. This seems to be a product of the polarised society that we're producing. Is there no room for shades of grey? (And I don't mean fifty of them!) With all your claimed background as a forum moderator, are you willing to provide a balanced criticism of the GSP, ut.babe?

ut.babe · ‎09-05-2013

"With all your claimed background as a forum moderator, are you willing to provide a balanced criticism of the GSP,

ut.babe?"

What a really odd question. What has experience as a forum mod got to do with a balanced criticism of the GSP? Moderating forums hasn't to do with the points raised in a discussion- its more about HOW people communicate in most cases, not the viewpoint of their argument... maybe you ought to go read up on that... and just for the record, your choice of how you referenced grey could be considered highly inappropriate on most forums if the person it is directed at took issue with it.

.

Of course I'm open to balanced criticism.. but I can tell you that if you yourself had actually bought or sold using it I'd give you a lot more credibility. And even though you have posted many times that you're not supporting the GSP - and I believe you aren't - my issue with you is how you treat posters on here. You figure everyone should have done an hours worth of reading before going and buying that $10 item so they know whats going on. Says the guy who doesn't buy and all he DOES do is read. People don't do that, and they won't do that, and thats part of what eBay and PB are counting on. And this kind of brings into the discussion the point thats been made about this policy making purchases more difficult. If I have to do an hours RESEARCH just to understand a shipping method?... that makes my purchase more difficult. Thats the opinion of myself as an eBay buyer... something you don't have a lot of experience of. Its the buyers and sellers who keep eBay going, and by your own admission, you are neither. Why should anyone listen to your criticisms of their actual experiences? You have no practical experience of the GSP. Not one. And whether you like it or not, that counts for something and how people look at you.

And to you.. is there no room for grey areas of human nature? You allow no one any slack at all. You chastise them like they are children if they didn't do their 'research' beforehand. You're like some bullying Hall monitor or something, lol.

The sad fact is that you do have a lot of information to share, and some of the time you do it very well. But way too much of the time you just come of as being frustrated with the poster and talking to them as if they were derelict. Not very helpful, and the probably very valid point you are making is lost. Sure in a perfect world everyone would read up on things but you know what? If I have to read for an hour or even half an hour in order to understand the charges when I buy that item that has a price tag of $10 or $15 dollars? I'm not going to buy it. I don't have time. I have better things to do. I don't have all day to read things like some people. And thats a big issue with the GSP over and above the fine points of the policy itself.

Not to mention the fact there could be many reasons someone didn't read the whole policy or research Lots of different walks of life out there, lots of different levels of computer ability, research ability, language barriers, I could go on and on. And they all buy on eBay. But you allow for none of that 'grey' area do you? Everyone is just stupid to have bought without doing all their research first. Stupid for posting without having done all that reading first. You talk about allowing for grey areas but to you, people don't get the same consideration. They are either black or white - they either did their research or they didn't., no excuses, and they have no business posting here if they didn't. Wow.

"I'm not sure I agree with your point about people who go off on half-baked rants.." And your ranting back at them is very helpful and educational I'm sure.

And yes, people will say thanks if they've been approached politely and in a friendly manner, even if they don't like the news they hear. I've seen it on here. If you don't believe that then you aren't here to help or educate them, you're here just to scold them, which is exactly what you come off as. You talk about others ranting, when really, its all you yourself do most of the time.

I don't question your knowledge of the GSP program from a 'literary' standpoint and I don't doubt you could be very helpful here - and have been on occasion. Its your attitude that makes you look bad. Your very valid points are often lost in how you present them. But, if nothing else you are very entertaining at times and make me laugh 🙂 So thank you for that at least.

i*m-still-here · ‎09-05-2013

These discussions have been on-going: Thread after thread.

When buyers complain about the GSP a couple of regular posters respond by bringing up our tax laws.................. I'm referring to an ongoing trend over many months and not this particular thread.

Virtually everyone here is very familiar with that law, and so the point of pointing it out is not to inform and teach.

The person on the receiving end of that feels intimidated and threatened because they are being told to buck and stop complaining because they had to pay taxes.

It helps no one when GSP issues are constantly transformed into tax issues.

They are not the same.

i*m-still-here · ‎09-05-2013

I also want to point out that buyers are also very confused about the whole GSP vs Tax Issue.

When regular posters can't separate the two issues and continue to bring up our tax laws by way of explaining the GSP ............ it not only intimidates the poster, but it also fuels the anger they feel at being taken advantage of.

When a buyer suddenly has to pay taxes where there were none charged in the past, that's the first thing they respond to.

It's natural.

P-B used the tax issue to get a foot in the door. The truth is that they do not provide a viable service.

As I've said over and over again: P-B gets paid for making transactions more difficult for buyers and sellers and they are getting away with it.

Wake up and smell the coffee!

marnotom! · ‎09-05-2013

@i*m-still-here wrote:
These discussions have been on-going: Thread after thread.
When buyers complain about the GSP a couple of regular posters respond by bringing up our tax laws.................. I'm referring to an ongoing trend over many months and not this particular thread.

Virtually everyone here is very familiar with that law, and so the point of pointing it out is not to inform and teach.

The person on the receiving end of that feels intimidated and threatened because they are being told to buck and stop complaining because they had to pay taxes.

It helps no one when GSP issues are constantly transformed into tax issues.
They are not the same.

I'd have to disagree with a lot of this, and I'm sure you're not surprised by this.

There have been several posts on this board and elsewhere from users, blindsided by the GSP, complaining that they shouldn't have to pay anything extra on their imports from the states because of "free trade". That doesn't sound like "virtually everyone" being familiar with tax laws to me.

If they're not complaining about what they think is an unjust or unnecessary charge because of NAFTA, they're complaining because they've "never had to pay these fees before" and then go on to conclude that someone at eBay or Pitney Bowes must be lining their pockets with buyers' money.

That doesn't sound like "virtually everyone" being familiar with tax laws to me, either.

There have been posts from people who wonder why Pitney Bowes has the "right" to collect taxes due on a personal import. Those people are somewhat familiar with tax laws, but not familiar with commercial carriers' legal obligations to collect due taxes and duties. I can't lump those posters into the "virtually everyone" category, either.

What am I supposed to bring up when posters like these express misplaced concerns about the GSP if not tax laws? The Magna Carta?

I don't recall ever stating in any of my posts that a user should "buck up and stop complaining" about having to pay taxes due on a personal import, but if you can provide evidence of such that would be welcome. It's obvious that a lot of my posts are getting misunderstood and I have to do some work on clarifying them.

pierrelebel · ‎09-05-2013

"It's obvious that a lot of my posts are getting misunderstood"

If I may be candid, I do not think so.

While we may not agree on every sentence ever written on the subject, the information and clarification you provide are generally factual. That is not the problem.

While most readers come here to learn and appreciate your input, a few simply refuse to accept that their "truth" is not universally accepted. I understand the individual buyer facing a new charge because of GSP (extra shipping or fee or tax or whatever) and blowing some steam through these boards.

As stated so many times before, GSP is not a program suitable to most Canadian buyers for most transactions. And most posters agree with that simple definition. However, while I agree than most Canadians should not purchase from American sellers offering GSP most of the time, it would be wrong to ignore the misinformation highlighted in many of those posts.

I have a hard time understanding why some posters try to make everything "personal". eBay is a business, a venue offering space for buyers and sellers to meet and complete transactions, not an organization trying to "scam" buyers or sellers (even if I often have strong disagreements with their ever changing policies). When new posters do not understand some of the policies or legalities involved with GSP, I think you deserve a big "thank you" for taking the time to correct the misinformation and for providing links where casual readers may learn "stuff" they may not have been aware of previously.

Once again,marnotom!, thank you for your posts and keep up the good work.

i*m-still-here · ‎09-05-2013

As ut-babe pointed out, buyers are coming here to vent and not to be condescended to.

Yes, they make mistakes in the posts and vent about free-trade etc., and those rants are easily recognizable as such and should be ignored or at the very least not made the focus of the post.

However, clearly buyers are well aware of the tax law and understand the degree to which our government chooses (not) to enforce it.

In fact, these buyers are much more aware than some posters are and are not in need of "education."

You are educating no one.

However, perhaps it's time to listen to buyers who know much more about the way our government chooses to enforce this law than some posters do.

In most cases, it's not the buyers who need to be educated.

marnotom! · ‎09-05-2013

@pierrelebel wrote:

Once again,@marnotom!

Thank you, Pierre, and thank you for the work you've done over the years on the eBay discussion boards. I don't expect you to remember me from about ten years ago (my ID was ever so slightly different than this one), but you have been a big inspiration to me.

marnotom! · ‎09-05-2013

@ut.babe wrote:
"With all your claimed background as a forum moderator, are you willing to provide a balanced criticism of the GSP,
ut.babe?"

What a really odd question. What has experience as a forum mod got to do with a balanced criticism of the GSP? Moderating forums hasn't to do with the points raised in a discussion- its more about HOW people communicate in most cases, not the viewpoint of their argument... maybe you ought to go read up on that... and just for the record, your choice of how you referenced grey could be considered highly inappropriate on most forums if the person it is directed at took issue with it.
.
Of course I'm open to balanced criticism.. but I can tell you that if you yourself had actually bought or sold using it I'd give you a lot more credibility. And even though you have posted many times that you're not supporting the GSP - and I believe you aren't - my issue with you is how you treat posters on here. You figure everyone should have done an hours worth of reading before going and buying that $10 item so they know whats going on. Says the guy who doesn't buy and all he DOES do is read. People don't do that, and they won't do that, and thats part of what eBay and PB are counting on. And this kind of brings into the discussion the point thats been made about this policy making purchases more difficult. If I have to do an hours RESEARCH just to understand a shipping method?... that makes my purchase more difficult. Thats the opinion of myself as an eBay buyer... something you don't have a lot of experience of. Its the buyers and sellers who keep eBay going, and by your own admission, you are neither. Why should anyone listen to your criticisms of their actual experiences? You have no practical experience of the GSP. Not one. And whether you like it or not, that counts for something and how people look at you.

And to you.. is there no room for grey areas of human nature? You allow no one any slack at all. You chastise them like they are children if they didn't do their 'research' beforehand.  You're like some bullying Hall monitor or something, lol.

The sad fact is that you do have a lot of information to share, and some of the time you do it very well. But way too much of the time you just come of as being frustrated with the poster and talking to them as if they were derelict. Not very helpful, and the probably very valid point you are making is lost. Sure in a perfect world everyone would read up on things but you know what? If I have to read for an hour or even half an hour in order to understand the charges when I buy that item that has a price tag of $10 or $15 dollars? I'm not going to buy it. I don't have time. I have better things to do. I don't have all day to read things like some people. And thats a big issue with the GSP over and above the fine points of the policy itself.

Not to mention the fact there could be many reasons someone didn't read the whole policy or research Lots of different walks of life out there, lots of different levels of computer ability, research ability, language barriers, I could go on and on. And they all buy on eBay. But you allow for none of that 'grey' area do you? Everyone is just stupid to have bought without doing all their research first. Stupid for posting without having done all that reading first. You talk about allowing for grey areas but to you, people don't get the same consideration. They are either black or white - they either did their research or they didn't., no excuses, and they have no business posting here if they didn't. Wow.

"I'm not sure I agree with your point about people who go off on half-baked rants.." And your ranting back at them is very helpful and educational I'm sure.

And yes, people will say thanks if they've been approached politely and in a friendly manner, even if they don't like the news they hear. I've seen it on here. If you don't believe that then you aren't here to help or educate them, you're here just to scold them, which is exactly what you come off as. You talk about others ranting, when really, its all you yourself do most of the time.

I don't question your knowledge of the GSP program from a 'literary' standpoint and I don't doubt you could be very helpful here - and have been on occasion. Its your attitude that makes you look bad. Your very valid points are often lost in how you present them. But, if nothing else you are very entertaining at times and make me laugh 🙂 So thank you for that at least.

Perhaps you've not seen my posts where I say that I went through the checkout process on a test GSP listing to see what it was like from the buyer's perspective. I didn't find anything underhanded about how it was presented then, and I doubt things have radically changed in the intervening months.

Or perhaps you're confused by my feedback rating of 1 (which was for that test listing) which is the result of my usual eBay ID being the victim of a Liveworld glitch that's left me unable to post with it. In that case, I would think that you'd have issues with a poster with a feedback rating of 0, so that can't be the source of your confusion.

I'm concerned about these accusations of being "chastising" and "bullying". Never once have I subjected a poster with concerns about the GSP with insults or ridicule. I'll admit that I can mete out a strange brand of "tough love" but I never, never belittle other posters unless they come out swinging at me personally. Just because you may not like the message presented doesn't mean that it's a personal attack. If people are honestly "surprised" by the GSP, they simply haven't made use of the resources available to find out about it before committing to make a purchase. I don't know how pointing that out can be construed as a bullying tactic. Do you have suggestions on how people can find out more about the Global Shipping Program?

And for what it's worth, if the renewal of my cell phone contract comes back to bite me below the tailbone, it will be my fault for not reading the terms and conditions closely enough. I'm not going to automatically blame my provider for the problems.

marnotom! · ‎09-05-2013

@i*m-still-here wrote:
As ut-babe pointed out, buyers are coming here to vent and not to be condescended to.
Yes, they make mistakes in the posts and vent about free-trade etc., and those rants are easily recognizable as such and should be ignored or at the very least not made the focus of the post.

However, clearly buyers are well aware of the tax law and understand the degree to which our government chooses (not) to enforce it.
In fact, these buyers are much more aware than some posters are and are not in need of "education."

You seem to read a lot into the posts of others that simply isn't there. You even post things that you believe are clear (i.e. "Buying internationally on eBay is difficult") and assume that people can read into your statement and know exactly what you mean by this.

If I grant you that most people are aware of Canadian tax laws as they pertain to personal imports, then I think we should also conclude that these people aren't likely going to post about the GSP being a "money grab" for eBay or Pitney Bowes, "a scam", "bogus" or anything else along those lines. They're going to have a pretty good idea of what they're getting themselves into and they're either going to avoid GSP listings altogether or proceed with extreme caution.

@i*m-still-here wrote:

You are educating no one.

However, perhaps it's time to listen to buyers who know much more about the way our government chooses to enforce this law than some posters do.

In most cases, it's not the buyers who need to be educated.

I'm trying to read beyond your words, but this passage sounds awfully condescending to me... 😉

i*m-still-here · ‎09-05-2013

marnotom!........ this isn't and never was about your posts per se, (and certainly not about you personally)......

but for some reason you stepped into it and took it on as if were and so gradually it's morphing into that and it shouldn't.

ut.babe · ‎09-05-2013

@marnotom! wrote:

Perhaps you've not seen my posts where I say that I went through the checkout process on a test GSP listing to see what it was like from the buyer's perspective. I didn't find anything underhanded about how it was presented then, and I doubt things have radically changed in the intervening months.

I don't recall myself ever saying that there was something underhanded about the checkout process so no idea where you get that from this thread. Packaging - which is what I started the thread about - is after the checkout process, and your 'test' wouldn't lead to that would it? I said I didn't like getting charged twice for shipping - I didn't say it was underhanded.

In fact, I never even called your information into question and hey - I even complimented you on your knowledge! How will they know? By being told of course. In the right way. Ever hear of getting more flies with honey than vinegar?

As to zero or low feedback, there are probably a lot of people here that have an account for buying/selling and an account for posting on these forums. For whatever reason. Probably in case they get banned on the forums or something lol. Or in a case like what you mentioned.

And I didn't say anything specific about your posts in GSP threads - most of my points about you were actually gleaned from another thread you posted in. Dude, its not your place to give out 'tough love here' and its not a privilege that comes with number of posts or anything else! If you don't like what someone posted, pass them by - as you point out buyers should do about GSP sellers!! Go get hired by ebay if you want to mete out tough love or whatever it is, then maybe you have a right.

You don't know when you're being complimented and someone is just suggesting there might be a better way to approach things than the way you do at times.

The thread was about PB repackaging items based on my own personal experience. I suggest all of us get back to the topic that was intended, and if there is nothing further to add on that then we can all move on to other issues and threads feeling like we all made our points.... or at least you can move on. Frankly, I'm done with these forums. I can find more worthwhile brick walls to go knock my head against. You all take care and have fun.

pjcdn2005 · ‎09-05-2013

Dude, its not your place to give out 'tough love here' and its not a privilege that comes with number of posts or anything else! If you don't like what someone posted, pass them by - as you point out buyers should do about GSP sellers!! Go get hired by ebay if you want to mete out tough love or whatever it is, then maybe you have a right.

It's not your place to tell other posters what they can or can not post about. If you want that job, you should ask to be hired on by Lithium as a mod.

People comment all the time when someone posts misinformation and there is nothing wrong with that. I would rather that someone tell me about a mistake in my post instead of being silent and letting others believe the incorrect information. There is also nothing wrong with someone else giving their point of view about a subject or a comment that has been made on the board as long as they keep within the parameters that ebay has set. If you don't like someone's comments you can ignore them or you can comment on them but it isn't your 'right' to tell someone to be silent on certain subjects...that's just wrong.

alwaysthemusic · ‎09-06-2013

Ok that is just brutal, this repackaging business is the final straw. Today I got hit hard by GSP fees post auction for an item that was listed as a Buy It Now sale. The import fee stated at time of sale was $19. Thought that was reasonable. Well it rocketed to $44 as soon as I committed to the Buy It Now option.

Suffice to say, the guy at GSP I talked to was also perplexed, and agreed the import fee should have been clear from the outset for a fixed price item.

But now reading your thread re the repackaging it's over for me. Why should I pay for an extra and usually unnecessary step? I've rarely seen a badly packaged item, most sellers do their best and get it right. No need for PB to get their hands on the shipment, especially if the repackaging job is shabby.

No matter how alluring the auction appears, one cannot count on the numbers to make sense. Broken calculator, cash grab, scam, whatever is going on, it's not working for one more Canadian buyer.

Done!

pjcdn2005 · ‎09-06-2013

Suffice to say, the guy at GSP I talked to was also perplexed, and agreed the import fee should have been clear from the outset for a fixed price item.

A couple of things but first, I'm curious how you talked to someone "at GSP"? Was this someone you talked to at ebay? From what I've heard, there hasn't been a way to contact anyone who specifically deals with the program. It would be great if they now have someone available.

If you are in a province with about 13% HST then the first number...$19...sounds right. If I go to that listing on .com and put in an Ontario postal code, it gives an import price of $19. BUT...the same listing on ebay.ca states that it is $44. This is a glitch that shows up on some listings....I have no idea why. If I were you, I would contact ebay and show them how the two fees are different and insist on paying the lower fee as I'm sure that is the correct one. Or, write kalvin@ebay.com and explain the problem. He is a rep for ebay Canada and is good at getting the right people to look into things. He may even see this thread and reply.