Buyers protected over sellers

I recently became an eBay seller and i was shocked to learn how limited our protection is.   I recently sold an item worth more then 600 $ but now Im told the buyer has three days after they receive the item before I can get paid for it.  I got tracking for the item and took a picture of the contents.

 

In those three days the buyer could easily open the package and switch out the contents of it.  Then claim "item damaged" or "item not as described" and then send it back with different contents and I'm screwed.  Paypal claims they would launch an investigation but how can they determine if the buyer switches the contents?  The post office doesn't open it to make sure. 

 

From now on I have only two options, either make my buyers wait the 21 days till the money clears so I have cash in hand and can send out, or just not sell anymore.  There is no incentive whatsoever for people to become sellers now.   And because sellers no have to be scared all the time, we always have to use tracking number and signature required and that raises up the cost for Buyers as far as shipping.  This is why shipping costs are  so much higher now to the point where shipping often costs more then the item itself. 

 

And I've been on the other side a a buyer before and I've had sellers try to scam me, but I still believe a seller should have cash in hand before they ship.  Buyers have a much easier time getting their money back then a seller does getting re-embersed when they are scammed.

 

This is why people are switching to Etsy, Amazon and other sites like it, 

 

 

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Buyers protected over sellers

The ability for a buyer to open a SNAD claim has NOTHING to do with payment holds.

 

At a bare minimum a buyer can start a not as described claim up to 30 days via eBay and up to 180 via PayPal.

 

The hold on funds you experience is simply because you are a new seller, once you get past the 90 days and 25 selling transactions the holds will go away but you are still responsible to handle buyer claim.

 

I've been around since the days when there was no buyer protection, if that had continued I'm positive eBay would long since folded up.

 

 



"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915
- answering Trolls is voluntary, my policy is not to participate.
Message 2 of 20
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Buyers protected over sellers

Thats nice and all, but ti doesn't change the fact that the current system protects buyers at the expense of sellers.  Whats to stop a buyer from pulling the scam I described above?

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Buyers protected over sellers

Most buyers (people) are honest, but mail orders, just like local retails, have risks. If you cannot bear the risk you described above, then perhaps you shouldn't be selling such a valuable item online and instead sell it locally? The risk you described is only a what-if, right?

 

as for the 21 days hold it applies to ALL new sellers, because there are sellers out there who can be scammers, too. 

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Buyers protected over sellers

I'm sure theres just as many honest sellers out there as their is buyers.  So why should Buyers get the edge as far as protection?   It's much easier for Buyers to get claims resolved through paypal then it is for sellers.   And no other site operates like this, if I buy something over Amazon, that seller gets the money and then ships out.  

 

And so your saying sellers should avoid selling high value items on ebay?  Should it only be restricted to small value items?

 

 

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Buyers protected over sellers

Ok, let's put it this way: if buyers don't have buyers protection such as "item not as described / damaged", then what stops a seller from sending a piece of garbage instead of the actual $600 item? 

 

Personally, I don't want to bear the risk of sending somebody $600 and then not actually getting the item. So in that aspect I wouldn't be buying something that costs as much as $600 online. There is risk on both ends. The most expensive item I have sold is $150 because that's my risk tolerance threshold (the sale had no issues buyer gave me positive feedback), likewise the most expensive item I have bought online is $250, because that's the maximum amount I'm willing to "take a risk" with, and well, I really wanted that $250 item and the seller did deliver it as described.

 

I'm not exactly saying sellers should avoid selling high value items on eBay because there are sellers here who are successful in doing so. I think you should consider your own risk tolerance, and since you are new you should sell some lower value items first to get a better hang of how eBay works. If you feel that eBay doesn't work out for you, perhaps you should find a different selling venue that works for you. 

 

Since your what-if situation hasn't actually happened yet, and you already sold that $600 item right now (I hope with tracking and insurance - which is a form of seller protection)  so there isn't much you can do about it, why don't you just relax for now instead of worrying over the what-if situation?

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Buyers protected over sellers

The fact that they can be charged with mail fraud and the buyer can simply return the item and have paypal refund their money.

 

Buyers get more protection.  In the world of commerce its a pretty accepted custom that the person selling the item gets paid before the buyer is allowed to take ownership of the item.   Sellers are the ones who lack protection in this case.

 

Why should I have to be limited in the value of things I sell?  This kind of policy is going to drive sellers over to other sites where they have greater protection.

 

I've been on the other end of this, so I know how a buyer feels, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm now at risk.  I have to hope my buyer is an honest one. 

Message 7 of 20
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Buyers protected over sellers


@dark_phoenix9273 wrote:

The fact that they can be charged with mail fraud and the buyer can simply return the item and have paypal refund their money.

 

Buyers get more protection.  In the world of commerce its a pretty accepted custom that the person selling the item gets paid before the buyer is allowed to take ownership of the item.   Sellers are the ones who lack protection in this case.

 

Why should I have to be limited in the value of things I sell?  This kind of policy is going to drive sellers over to other sites where they have greater protection.

 

I've been on the other end of this, so I know how a buyer feels, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm now at risk.  I have to hope my buyer is an honest one. 


What you are describing is the reality of ecommerce, and the issues are no different than what any retailer faces when selling online. Chargebacks are a reality with most forms of consumer payments, and they are there for a good reason. This is not a paypal specific issue. If you have a merchant account with any credit card processing company you are going to be held to the same standards and face limits. If you are paid through a third party who provides payment processing, you are going to be held to the same standard and face limits. 

 

There are daily cases of scammer sellers selling items at well below market value, getting payments, then doing a runner with the money. Seller limits and buyer protections are there for very good reasons. If you think merchants selling on Amazon don't get hit with chargebacks, limits, or outright bans I suggest you read up on the A to Z guarantee. If anything they are held to a far higher standard. All of these programs are simply a marketing exercise for sites to rebrand industry standard chargeback procedures. As a seller you are ultimately responsible until a consumer has an item in hand and is satisfied their purchase corresponds to what they ordered. As a marketplace this is important as it is their reputation on the line as well, and their customer to lose as well.

 

As a seller you have to take steps to limit your liability, which includes shipping by proper methods with tracking, insurance, signature confirmation, etc as appropriate. Ship to the countries you know you can provide those things. If you are selling in a high risk category, don't sell your item online unless you can afford to lose it. Looking at your listings, this is something you need to review as you have incorrect rates setup for many countries (expedited services outside of NA cost much more than what you have listed) and ship to many countries you probably shouldn't be if you want to avoid problems. If you take those steps your actual fraud rates for most non-high risk categories should be a fraction of a percent.

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Buyers protected over sellers

Actually its more common in commerce that the buyer pays first. Most sites such as Amazon, Etsy, TrollandToad, Starcity Games etc... require the seller to be paid before shipment can go out. 

 

And by the way, there is just as many crooked buyers who "buy" and item and then claim it never arrived or that its "not as described" and then keep both the item and the cash.  If your wondering how they do it with the second option, they simply change out the package contents and then ship back "the package".

 

But my point is that they have much greater protection then sellers do. If they dont get their item, it's simple to prove because the seller has to have tracking to prove it was sent.  And If they have a problem with the item all they have to do is send it back and either way they get their money back,  they are at next to no risk.

 

And buy the way if buyers wonder why they have to pay over 20$ on a 10$ item, this is the reason. Because now sellers have to make sure everything has tracking and signature required.  This is also one of the reason people are buying less on here.  It's no longer cheaper then buying at a local store.

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Buyers protected over sellers


@dark_phoenix9273 wrote:

Actually its more common in commerce that the buyer pays first. Most sites such as Amazon, Etsy, TrollandToad, Starcity Games etc... require the seller to be paid before shipment can go out. 


 

 

You can be subject to and hit with limits and holds on any platform or marketplace. Google seller holds and you'll find that out. Any marketplace that doesn't have fraud mitigation procedures and policies in place isn't worth dealing with.

 


 

And by the way, there is just as many crooked buyers who "buy" and item and then claim it never arrived or that its "not as described" and then keep both the item and the cash.  If your wondering how they do it with the second option, they simply change out the package contents and then ship back "the package".

 


 

 

Everyone is aware there is a degree of buyer fraud involved. Consumer protection laws and regulations trump everything else. A dishonest seller can do a lot more financial damage.

 


 

 

But my point is that they have much greater protection then sellers do. If they dont get their item, it's simple to prove because the seller has to have tracking to prove it was sent.  And If they have a problem with the item all they have to do is send it back and either way they get their money back,  they are at next to no risk.

 

And buy the way if buyers wonder why they have to pay over 20$ on a 10$ item, this is the reason. Because now sellers have to make sure everything has tracking and signature required.  This is also one of the reason people are buying less on here.  It's no longer cheaper then buying at a local store.


If you want to sell online and cover yourself, then yes you need tracking, but it isn't foolproof either. It also doesn't mean it has to be a blanket thing for all categories as you can get third party insurance for non-tracked shipments, or self insure. You have to be smart about where you target your sales, where you are willing to ship, and what methods you are willing to use. If you are selling low value goods online, chance are you'll have to consider using non-tracked services. That is a risk you have to weigh against fraud, loss, etc. It goes with the territory wherever you sell when you sell online.

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Buyers protected over sellers

And you don't think all that hassle is going to result in a decrease in the number of sellers or just make sellers go to other sites?

 

I've shopped on sites that don't hold sellers to these restrictions and I often have less hassles on them then on site such as this one.  Buyers are protected, but that shouldn't mean sellers lives have to become overly regulated as a result.  

 

I've shown with examples on here that buyers are more protected then sellers.  If a buyer doesn't get the item, they get a refund via paypal.  If a buyer scams a seller, they are out the item and the cash.

Message 11 of 20
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Buyers protected over sellers

I sent and item, supplied a valid tracking number that checked out and they said I'm still not protected as a seller.    Ebay is a huge risk to sell on.

Message 12 of 20
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Buyers protected over sellers

Someone has already told you that your money is being held because you're a new seller.

 

That's standard procedure.  If all goes well you'll get your payment in time.

 

You also "seem" to be saying that the buyer didn't receive the item in spite of the fact that tracking says it was delivered.  Is that correct?

 

If not, is there an issue separate from the fact that your funds are being held for a period time because you're a new seller?

Message 13 of 20
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Buyers protected over sellers

"If all goes well" being the operative part of that sentence.  The buyer gets to be safe and secure in the knowledge that they are protected ether way, they can use tracking I provide to look up and see that I've kept up my end of the bargain, but I have no such protection that they will in return keep to theirs.

 

And everyone seems so crazy over this new seller label.  Whos to say that a truly dishonest person wouldn't just wait until they achieved full seller status and then try to cheat someone?  How does the system protect the buyer any better then they already are? 

 

 

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Buyers protected over sellers


@dark_phoenix9273 wrote:

"If all goes well" being the operative part of that sentence.  The buyer gets to be safe and secure in the knowledge that they are protected ether way, they can use tracking I provide to look up and see that I've kept up my end of the bargain, but I have no such protection that they will in return keep to theirs.


 

 

What reason at this stage do you have to believe that your buyer is going to defraud you? To be frank, you are at far greater risk for actual fraud to occur due to the way you have setup your shipping options, and you should review those as your shipping options are setup incorrectly, available to high risk countries, and setup in a manner that you are very likely to have seller defects recorded against your account.

 

From the context of your replies it seems the bone of contention is that paypal won't release your funds. Your buyer has no way to know your funds are being held and has no added incentive to attempt to defraud you. Even if you withdraw those funds to a bank account, it doesn't mean there is no recourse for paypal to recover funds from you in the event a buyer reports a problem. 

 

 


 

And everyone seems so crazy over this new seller label.  Whos to say that a truly dishonest person wouldn't just wait until they achieved full seller status and then try to cheat someone?  How does the system protect the buyer any better then they already are? 

  


That indeed happens regularly. Dishonest sellers can also openly buy existing ebay and paypal accounts for that purpose. Those eventually get caught and shut down and there are procedures in place to identify and track accounts of that nature, and they get hit with holds as well. That doesn't change the fact that the first thing that should be done is to monitor new accounts since they are the quickest potential way to setup a scam. When you are selling on someone else's marketplace, it is their reputation, and you need to prove yours first.

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Buyers protected over sellers

Because if the buyer does decide to defraud me I am out allot of money, whereas they get to set in security knowing they are completely protected.

 

And what is so wrong with being an international seller?  It greatly increases the chance that my items will sell.  Selling domestically may be more secure but I have very little chance that my items will sell in that case. 

 

And not that I ever asked your opinion on my shipping policies, but my shipping options are set up fine,  If anything I'll have to start charging more in shipping now, which I don't really want to do.

 

And as I explained to you, if someone is going to be a scammer, then the current system only delays it, it doesn't prevent it.  It just gives the illusion of preventing it.   And by putting sellers at risk, your increasing the chances that they will turn into scammers, because as most people will tell you, once a person is scammed, they generally turn to doing it themselves because they figure "hey, I got ripped off, so why shouldnt I do it now?"

 

I like being an honest seller, so far I've had no complaints.  I had one package mistakenly sent back to me, so I sent it back out with tracking at my own expense to be sure. 

 

And I don't want to make my buyers wait 21 days, I honestly hate the idea, but if it the only way to protect myself, then it's my only choice, because as a seller, if something goes wrong, paypal has told me, neither them nor ebay are guaranteed to be there to help, so I literally have no other choice.

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Buyers protected over sellers


@dark_phoenix9273 wrote:

Because if the buyer does decide to defraud me I am out allot of money, whereas they get to set in security knowing they are completely protected.

 


 

 

That isn't a reason to assume the buyer is a criminal. Your logic at this point basically boils down to "but it could happen!". Ask yourself if that is a logical reason to get into a panic at this stage. Remember, regardless of whether your funds were held or not, your liability is the same and hasn't changed. If you want to shut down your account and do a runner just because something *might* happen, consider the implications carefully.

 

 


 

 

And what is so wrong with being an international seller?  It greatly increases the chance that my items will sell.  Selling domestically may be more secure but I have very little chance that my items will sell in that case. 

 

And not that I ever asked your opinion on my shipping policies, but my shipping options are set up fine,  If anything I'll have to start charging more in shipping now, which I don't really want to do.

 


 

 

Nothing is wrong with shipping internationally. What is wrong however are the countries you have chosen to ship to and the rates you have setup. Many of the countries you have specified are high risk countries for fraud or have much higher incidences of item not received cases due to well documented customs issues within some of these countries. Some of these countries insurer's won't even allow insurance for due to the rate of package loss. You also can't provide tracking to many of these countries. Furthermore some of them have customs restrictions that directly effect the category of items you sell.

 

Expedited international shipping does not cost $15-30 (the range you currently show), but that is what you are showing. In fact it costs more than the average selling price of your items and that amount combined. The shipping service you specify is important because there are ETA dates associated with that service. Those eta dates are visibly displayed to the customer to inform them of when to expect their package, and they are also used as a part of a metric to assign defects to seller accounts for late shipments.

 

Unless you are very familiar with shipping rates to all countries, flat rate shipping can cause huge problems. It also means you are charging too much for Canadian customers geographically closer to you, and not enough for those in rural areas or those who are geographically further away from you and outside of major centers. I would recommend you review the Canada Post price lists and setup calculated shipping, using the appropriate matching ebay shipping service option.

 

As currently setup, you have two options 1) you get to the post office and realize expedited international shipping costs far more and you eat the cost and lose money on the transaction as well as another transaction or two, or 2) you use a lower cost service. This is important as the slower tracked packet services start at $40-50 range for locations outside of North America. Or you can opt for an untracked service. Currently you are quoting estimated delivery in 2-4 business days for many international locations, with a 1 day handling time. Even with Xpress Post that can be a tight squeeze. With other services it's not going to arrive that soon. That leaves you exposed to item not received cases as you've set unrealistic expectations for your buyers, and it leaves you open to late shipment defects. You have inadvertently created a situation where you are far more likely to get hit with item not received cases than to experience any actual fraud.

 


 

And as I explained to you, if someone is going to be a scammer, then the current system only delays it, it doesn't prevent it.  It just gives the illusion of preventing it.   And by putting sellers at risk, your increasing the chances that they will turn into scammers, because as most people will tell you, once a person is scammed, they generally turn to doing it themselves because they figure "hey, I got ripped off, so why shouldnt I do it now?"


 

 

I sell in a somewhat high risk category that appeals to younger buyers. I have had less than 10 out of 11,000+ transactions over the last few years that could theoretically involve a possibly fraudulent buyer. Of those I was out of money on one. Having your listings setup properly is a big part in mitigating risk.

 

 


 

 I like being an honest seller, so far I've had no complaints.  I had one package mistakenly sent back to me, so I sent it back out with tracking at my own expense to be sure. 

 

And I don't want to make my buyers wait 21 days, I honestly hate the idea, but if it the only way to protect myself, then it's my only choice, because as a seller, if something goes wrong, paypal has told me, neither them nor ebay are guaranteed to be there to help, so I literally have no other choice.


If you make your buyers wait 21 days you won't have an account here for long. Honesty is a two way street. Unless you have reason to suspect a dishonest buyer, then your best bet is to follow best practices to mitigate your risk. As the saying goes, don't sell what you can afford to lose on here.

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Buyers protected over sellers

I set my shipping rates according to what Canada Post has told me to set them at.   And so far they have been correct. So I'll take their word over your "advice".  Canada post considers the US to be international. 

 

And when selling I have to protect myself against what could happen.  And if your solution is to tell sellers not to sell something unless they're willing to risk being completely cheated out of it, then why should anyone sell on here?

 

For the last time my listings are set up fine. I'm very open and honest with them.  Sorry they don't live up to "your standards".

 

Actually I think some buyers might be understanding about it.

 

 

Message 18 of 20
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Buyers protected over sellers


@dark_phoenix9273 wrote:

I set my shipping rates according to what Canada Post has told me to set them at.   And so far they have been correct. So I'll take their word over your "advice".  Canada post considers the US to be international. 

 

And when selling I have to protect myself against what could happen.  And if your solution is to tell sellers not to sell something unless they're willing to risk being completely cheated out of it, then why should anyone sell on here?

 

For the last time my listings are set up fine. I'm very open and honest with them.  Sorry they don't live up to "your standards".

 

Actually I think some buyers might be understanding about it.

 

 


Rates for the US and the rest of the world are very much different. I'm not sure how you found those prices or who advised them, but I suggest you actually go and read here to better educate yourself. Note those are commercial discounted rates,similiar to what you would receive when purchasing a shipping label via paypal. You listings don't even seem to have shipping prices setup consistently for items that appear to be of a similar size and weight. Your listings are setup wrong, plain and simple. I am telling you this for your benefit, as you are panicking already, when nothing has actually happened except for a payment hold. You are setting yourself up for far more headaches that could involve a far more likely loss of money on your side. 

Message 19 of 20
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Buyers protected over sellers

Maybe you don't plan for things to happen until they do but I prefer to be safe. 

 

As for my shipping. it's unfortunate you don't like my rates but thats what I was told, if it ends up costing more then what I have listed, then thats my fault and I would cover the difference.  But thats my business and it's not related to the main point, that being that buyers are protected at the expense of sellers.  If they continue to dismantle seller protection, then they will be stuck with very few sellers.

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