Comments about the Global Shipping Program

[kalvin@ebay.com]

Feel free to share your thoughts about the Global Shipping Program here. 

A few questions to get the ball rolling:

• What has worked well for you with the Global Shipping Program?
• Any ideas to help improve the experience for Canadian buyers?
• What has deterred you from buying items offered using the Global Shipping Program?
• How have you managed to search for items outside the program?

Please try & keep the comments constructive 🙂

If you have any questions about the program, please post them here.

[marnotom!]

Thanks for chipping in for Mater, Kxeron.  I'd like to see more transparency with the GSP's accounting of its import charges, too, but I don't see how the current arrangement is a scam.  It's just as transparent as mud, that's all.

Mater's point was somewhat different than yours, though.  Here it is again:

I rarely, if ever, have had to deal with import costs for items bought on ebay. Most items I buy are < $100.  Canada Border Services does not charge any fee for items <$20, and even those above $20, they rarely charge unless value is significant (>$100). So for the most part, I see it as a scam - a way for seller and intermediary to gouge the buyer.

Once again, I don't follow how ensuring that taxes and duty are paid on a personal import, as required by law, is some sort of "scam".  Surely the issue is more with Canada Border Services and the Canada Revenue Agency than the GSP?

[kxeron]

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@marnotom! wrote:

Thanks for chipping in for Mater, Kxeron.  I'd like to see more transparency with the GSP's accounting of its import charges, too, but I don't see how the current arrangement is a scam.  It's just as transparent as mud, that's all.

Mater's point was somewhat different than yours, though.  Here it is again:

I rarely, if ever, have had to deal with import costs for items bought on ebay. Most items I buy are < $100.  Canada Border Services does not charge any fee for items <$20, and even those above $20, they rarely charge unless value is significant (>$100). So for the most part, I see it as a scam - a way for seller and intermediary to gouge the buyer.

Once again, I don't follow how ensuring that taxes and duty are paid on a personal import, as required by law, is some sort of "scam".  Surely the issue is more with Canada Border Services and the Canada Revenue Agency than the GSP?

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The difficulty I see with this point, while I appreciate  your input, I feel this push toward "the world must revolve around eBay policy" rather disconcerting. CBSA, as far as I'm aware, has not agreed to any of PBI/eBay's terms of service agreements or similar contracts and has no responsibility to comply with how the GSP operates, but PBI/eBay has a responsibility by law to comply with how the CBSA operates, this includes providing consumers clear and open information that can be used in communications with the CBSA.

The reason I see the GSP as untrustworthy in through that point is that the GSP has documentation that claims a magic $50 figure as a cover to eBay's rear end on the matter, but doesn't actually enforce that on the rarely-challenged website software itself. There isn't code written to discourage/disable the GSP where it doesn't make sense so eBay/PBI still gets to profit off of items that don't allegedly qualify for the GSP making it a scam in those cases to acquire money through bloated opaque shipping charges. Until there are technological mechanisms in place to bring the website software into alignment with this alleged policy or advice, as far as I'm concerned that policy/advice doesn't exist outside of academic contexts like this conversation.

To summarize: eBay/PBI is still making GSP money off of items that allegedly should not be under the GSP due to broken website software that isn't being corrected and won't be corrected given the track record.

eBay's website software has many incidents where it has been inaccurate, displaying some figure on one page, displaying another on another page, jacking up shipping charges at checkout, so on and so forth. Inaccuracy in the financial world typically is a sign of fraud (often bait and switch). Even in store tills if it's out 30 cents it can throw off the whole day and that 30 cents has to be accounted for.

I'd rather the CBSA's inconsistency over eBay/PBI's inaccuracy since at least with the CBSA, I can check the bill and compare it to the tariff schedule and if I'm unhappy with the charges I have a means to appeal them (even if unsuccessful most of the time) while with the GSP the opaqueness means I have no means to challenge anything since PBI won't remit taxation information since you contractually "elect them to be an intermediary on your behalf".

[wine.n.beer]

EBay and Pitney Bowes are Corporations;

their only goals are to constantly search out more revenue streams and maximize profits, this is the mantra of those organization.

This is the crux of those artificial "legal persons" which in the meantime enjoy a higher standing than John and Jane Doe.

It may be regrettable as it is to let go an interesting sale ops but you as buyers have still the option of not entering into any contract with them.

Just by entering the EBay side or going into any store you agree by default on their terms and condition to do business with you.

They offer you an invitation to contract with them on their terms;.

A big problem however is that they negate on a basic rule of  dealing in a, what we call," free Market economy"which is "Transparency".

This Transparency is key important since beforehand knowledge and information  must be open, understandable and easy to grasp how terms  will work out and actually cost.

As many pointed out here, this is not the case.

Relevant information and choice options are hidden or by default selected; muddied not open visible particular to sellers.

If we had a real government interested in the welfare of their people a proper legislation would end those practices asap and  make those money grabbers think twice.

This brings me to the second point of  "Duty and Taxes".

Virtually all levels of governments and their "Agencies" having transformed away from their original role as elected trustees on behalf of the people into independently set up Corporations as governed by the UCC.

All are registered  Corporations and can be verified (Dunn&Bradstedt); a fact most Canadians and Citizen of most other Countries are not aware of.

What it means is of utmost importance to understand issues like this one.

You the Citizen of this Country are not the shareholder of those Corporations as you might think,no,you have become their asset.

The expression Human Resources makes this very clear..

In fact all those Law stomping friends here need to understand that corporation need contractual agreement from both sides to transact.

Many of the cited so called Laws are indeed Acts and Statutes and are not fitting that requirement  and if you dare to look unlawful.

I believe since PE Trudeau days, who transformed  Canada into many Corporations, we live with a fiction that all those written pieces of papers are actual valid law.

Of course they are enforced and who dares against the barrel of a gun, but does anyone remember to have explicit agreed and signed contracts  with any of those Corporations disguised as Government agencies?

Wrap your head around that one and dare to enter the rabbit hole....

This is not to say that most hired agencies staff are not nice and understanding persons. They like many who know just play along and pretend sticking to this fiction of "we they People are in charge!" and Taxes are God given duty toiling for.

[arlene_v]

I agree with posters here who say that the best way to highlight issues with the GSP is to post examples of actual errors in actual listings, so here is one such example.

This watch is attracting unnecessary duty (US made, over 100 years old=antique) when looking at the "import charges" on the current bid.

Either that,  or the PBI "import charges" are inflated at (Can)  $25.48 for a watch costing $110.30, Ontario tax should only be $14.34.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/251414288313?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Now that antiques are eligible under the GSP I'm seeing  such instances of seller error (or omission)  in listings resulting in either the item attracting duty or, ironically, not,  when it should be! (Item listed in antiques category that is not an antique, and is not manufactured in  the US)

No surprise, since generally only  the newest, and dare I say, least competent sellers  are using the GSP, and are now de facto international customs agents, and thus will earn all of the opprobrium,  but none of the pay, that attaches to such a position ...!

[pierrelebel]

We all know by now that the "import charges" include the total of: duty (if applicable), GST/HST/PST and Pitney Bowes handling (brokerage) fee.

We also know that for low value transactions, the PB fee is about $4/$5

"or the PBI "import charges" are inflated "

Is it possible that the PB fee increases to $10 or so (same as Canada Post) when the value increase to more than $100 ?

Once again the problem here is that eBay/PayPal and Pitney Bowes are very opaque on the fees being charged.  Most questions would be answered if duty (if/when applicable), taxes and PB fees were clearly broken down for all to see.  Somehow eBay is not listening.

[pierrelebel]

Checking a bit further on that watch, I found out :

The import duty rate for importing Watch luxury into Canada is 5% ,

That would explain it.  I checked the numbers using both Ontario and Alberta and they work out.  It is not a higher fee to PB but a 5% luxury tax (duty) going to Ottawa!

http://www.dutycalculator.com/new-import-duty-and-tax-calculation/saved_calculations/view_details/18...

[pierrelebel]

Lesson:  NOT everything made in the USA comes into Canada duty free under NAFTA.

[pierrelebel]

How can I find out which national tariffs apply for different originating goods under the NAFTA?

For Canadian tariff lines, please consult the Canada Border Services Agency to determine the tariff rates which apply. For U.S. rates, please consult the U.S. International Trade Commission website Mexico has posted the NAFTA tariff schedule on their Secretaria de Relaciones Exteriores site.

http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/agr-acc/nafta-alena/questions.as...

[kxeron]

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@pierrelebel wrote:

Checking a bit further on that watch, I found out :

The import duty rate for importing Watch luxury into Canada is 5% ,

That would explain it.  I checked the numbers using both Ontario and Alberta and they work out.  It is not a higher fee to PB but a 5% luxury tax (duty) going to Ottawa!

http://www.dutycalculator.com/new-import-duty-and-tax-calculation/saved_calculations/view_details/18...

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(and alike posts...)

Consumers should not have to be numerating these figures in trying to figure out what's what, it should be upon eBay/PBI to remit this information in full even if it requires programming a fully new platform. While I do respect your ability to find this information — and thank you for trying to be helpful, it is not your responsibility to be numerating these figures on eBay/PBI's behalf either. I know you're trying to be helpful, however in providing this information I feel you're in a way making information sourcing less of an eBay responsibility and more of a communal responsibility among Canadian consumers, even symbolically.

The difficulty is that the eBay and in extension the Paypal website software's implementation of the GSP is incomplete but nobody is pushing for it to be complete, instead providing endless details about eBay policy and guidelines, quoting figures from government websites, etc. All of this seems to be consumers saying to eBay "Don't worry, we'll work around your inadequacies in the incompleteness of the programme, it's only a minor inconvenience". This all leads to eBay's employees finding some comfort in directing people to FAQs, policy and resources and thus a conduit to not change the GSP in any form or its implementation thereof.

The GSP is clunky and ineffective in how it is done and not in-line with how other retailers do things. GST/PST/HST is not an import charge, it is an internal tax that is applied in a completely different manner than duty. It is eBay's responsibility to print this information seperately as a seperate line on invoices.

Simply because PBI remits the fees to the Canadian government on the whole doesn't absolve them from providing this information, categorized in writing for accounting purposes in the event PBI or eBay itself failed to correctly declare the item to the CBSA and thus charging an incorrect amount to the consumer.

To summarize: consumers can't do anything legally with the invoices provided now to challenge or inquire to the CBSA if something was correctly charged. Consumer-speculation on how an item was charged is not sufficient, I cannot take your post, pierrelebel and take it to the CBSA or CRA as an invoice, they'd require something from PBI.

eBay and PBI need to wake up and learn that the information they provide can't be used outside of their own processes. CBSA or CRA looks at a GSP invoice and asks for the breakdown which doesn't exist. But since we're busy speculating, perhaps eBay/PBI is depending on that in order to get around being externally challenged or questioned and using contracts upon consumers to say "You agreed to how things are".

[pierrelebel]

"Consumers should not have to be numerating these figures in trying to figure out what's what, it should be upon eBay/PBI to remit this information in full"

I think we ALL agree to that.

[arlene_v]

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@pierrelebel wrote:

Lesson:  NOT everything made in the USA comes into Canada duty free under NAFTA.

---

Um, no Pierre that is not the lesson here.

The lesson here is that this is an antique pocket watch and therefore should be exempt under that category.

Also I used the CBSA calculator to calculate the amount due, specifically selecting "watches"  so I am not sure why your calculation trumps the one provided by CBSA in this instance?

[arlene_v]

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@pierrelebel wrote:

"Consumers should not have to be numerating these figures in trying to figure out what's what, it should be upon eBay/PBI to remit this information in full"

I think we ALL agree to that.

---

DITTO!!!!!

[arlene_v]

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@pierrelebel wrote:

Checking a bit further on that watch, I found out :

The import duty rate for importing Watch luxury into Canada is 5% ,

That would explain it.  I checked the numbers using both Ontario and Alberta and they work out.  It is not a higher fee to PB but a 5% luxury tax (duty) going to Ottawa!

http://www.dutycalculator.com/new-import-duty-and-tax-calculation/saved_calculations/view_details/18...

---

LOL, and if this antique, 1910 gold filled American pocket watch has somehow been classified as a luxury watch in the same league  as  Patek  Philippe and Rolex, then it really does show how utterly misguided the GSP actually is.

Luxury watch indeed! What a joke! 

[pierrelebel]

... because of the gold content.

I do not make the rules.  I just try to explain that some items made in the USA are subject to duty.  Gold filled watch happens to be one of them.  I do not think "antique" has anything to do with it.

But, what difference does it make?

We are playing detectives.  Should we?

[arlene_v]

Maybe someone at Ebay or PBI can please explain the "import charges" on this watch for Ontario?  

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-Antique-Silver-Turquoise-Bracelet-Watchband-and-Vintage-Timex-Watch-/...

Seems that when questions are asked the same posters answer here over and over and I am not sure they know any more about this than the rest of us because it is all speculation ..so I am specifically asking a MOD this question. 

 ...if a watch is listed through the GSP, any old watch, even a Timex ... does it get slapped with a luxury watch tax duty?

How does the GSP determine which watches listed fall into the luxury watch category and attract duty,  and which watches don't?

The CBSA calculator does not  generate duty on the category of "watches"  made in the USA so I am wondering how the GSP does this? 

TIA. 

[pierrelebel]

".so I am specifically asking a MOD this question."

Do not waste your time.  They have never answered similar questions nor do I expect them to.

Actually, once they made a claim that "maple syrup" was a taxable commodity in Canada!  The folks at eBay.com in San Jose, California have relatively little knowledge of Canadian laws.  They rely on information from PB.  Unfortunately, Pitney Bowes does not address these boards.

[arlene_v]

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@pierrelebel wrote:

... because of the gold content.

I do not make the rules.  I just try to explain that some items made in the USA are subject to duty.  Gold filled watch happens to be one of them.  I do not think "antique" has anything to do with it.

But, what difference does it make?

We are playing detectives.  Should we?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

We are invited to raise issues and ask questions on these threads .....

...I have no idea if you are right or wrong about the gold filled issue. All I know is that the goverment site I rely on (CBSA)  gives me contradictory info to what your commercial site provides, and I would certainly think that an antique should indeed be exempt.  

I look at charges and they just don't add up

.I go to the CBSA site and the info there contradicts the info provided by PBI for import charges ..

I come here and ask questions and get the distinct feeling that this is not encouraged.

 We are all surely on the same page? We are playing detective because we HAVE to. 

[pierrelebel]

"I come here and ask questions and get the distinct feeling that this is not encouraged."

Actually eBay wants users to ask questions.  However, do not expect answers to each individual questions about specific duty or tax rates. They simply do not have answers to those questions.

The country manager for eBay.ca was pretty clear about that last week:

"The purpose of this thread is to collect information and insights around the Global Shipping program, and is being monitored by the Global Shipping team directly. My Toronto-based team and I have regular meetings with this team as well, and we refer often to the discussion threads.

Global shipping is great in theory because it opens up more inventory to Canada that previously only shipped to the USA. But there are lots of very valid buyer concerns and confusion around the implementation that we have today. We're listening, the Global shipping team is listening, and we're already working on buyer experience improvements that we hope will address some of those concerns." 

Knowing that eBay will not answer individual questions, many posters have tried to answer specific questions, in an effort to help other users understand some aspects of GSP.  It does not mean we agree with the program or want to "defend" it - my feelings are well known on the subject.  I only try to help.  Feel free to ignore my posts if the answers I provide do not help you.

[pierrelebel]

PS - You may want to visit the "board hour" every Wednesday at 1:00pm (Eastern) when your questions may be answered by eBay staffers and managers.

http://community.ebay.ca/t5/Weekly-Board-Hour-Session/bd-p/23000000073

[arlene_v]

Pierre, it would be extremely foolish of me to ignore your answers here and I would never do so. In this case for example you have provided food for thought, and now I am going to check and see how the GSP is identifying luxury vs non-luxury watches.  I also plan to raise this issue with CBSA tomorrow because I rather like playing detective!!! 

I am curious to know exactly how duty and luxury taxes are applied in such cases when it comes to antique watches. 

I greatly appreciate your rational and level approach. 

From reading your posts it is clear that you spend hours answering questions here and are extremely knowledgeable ...thank you very much for taking the time to do so!