eBay

aramatic · ‎07-22-2021

I'm looking at an item whose Buy It Now price is US$99.99. The shipping to Canada through the GSP is $26.98 (=$126.97), though if I click Buy It Now the shipping mysteriously increases to $27.17 (=$127.16). No big deal. Checking my messages, however, I see that the seller has offered a 15% discount, so the item is now $85. The shipping slips down to $23.66, but out of nowhere comes an estimated import charge of $17.45 (=$126.11). Why a charge is only estimated on a fixed total is beyond me. It's not as if the price will change. But the net result is that the seller's offer makes absolutely no difference. Shipping rises from $26.98 to $41.11. I've seen this time and again. eBay and its wretched GSP just pluck figures out of the air that are not to the advantage of either buyer or seller. The so-called "import charge" (I've never paid duty on a thing in 17 years of eBaying) bears no relation to reality and is apparently just a good moneyspinner for Pitney-Bowes. It's a pity that so many US sellers are unaware of this and of the fact that sending directly using USPS is both cheaper and quicker.

marnotom! · ‎07-26-2021

@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:
For transparency and a buyers piece of mind if you recieved an actual breakdown of the charges EVEN if they are being paid on behalf of the buyer it would be most helpful. From past experience if you had duties/taxes/processing for anything arriving with CP you got a physical copy of those charges automatically. With PB and eBay it was never a concept. If you are a customer of PB and use them as your business's customs broker you get a break down of all charges with every invoice. Why? Because it's a required declarable business expense.

The whole matter of the GSP not supporting B2B transactions has already been brought up, but also consider that when one purchases an item forwarded by the GSP, any taxes and duties are paid on the buyer's behalf by Pitney Bowes. The import charges are just the mechanism for repaying Pitney Bowes. While businesses may not be able to get ITC for a GSP-forwarded item, who says the import charges can't be deducted as a business expense in the same way shipping charges can?

@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:

With eBay it's described loosely as a value added service for buyers and as seller protection. More like just a money generator for PB that causes inflated/slow unreliable delivery for the buyers that it affects!!

I've never had issues with the handful of items I've purchased and had forwarded through the GSP, but perhaps I'm more careful than most when it comes to purchasing items where the program is used.

As for the program being a money generator for Pitney Bowes, uh, well, duh? How do businesses stay in business if they don't have cash flow? Pitney Bowes has been in a process of reinventing itself since the early 2000s when it became apparent that their core business of postage meters was going down the toilet. After bottoming out in 2020, its share price has been slowly bouncing back.

aramatic · ‎07-28-2021

"As for the program being a money generator for Pitney Bowes, uh, well, duh?"

The point being that if sellers send directly by using USPS they cut out the unnecessary middleman, Pitney-Bowes, resulting in lower costs and quicker delivery times. And cry me a river that PB went through some tough times before coming up with this scam. It's not my job to keep them afloat.

reallynicestamps · ‎07-28-2021

@lotzofuniquegoodies

Yes Canada Post does do B2B delivery, and they charge the recipient for duty and sales taxes on delivery.

GSP specifically says it does not do B2B, and they charge "import fees" which cover duty, sales taxes, and a service charge all in together before the seller is even told to ship to Kentucky.

I agree that it would make many buyers happy if they did show their math, but it would not surprise me if there is a certain amount of fudge in each truckload on the manifest when it crosses the border.

@aramatic

cut out the unnecessary middleman, Pitney-Bowes, resulting in lower costs and quicker delivery times.

I won't argue about quicker delivery, although since PB, USPS, Canada Post, UPS , FedEx etc, all use spoke and hub delivery systems, there is reason to believe there is no real slowdown.

Never watch sausage being made. Never watch shipment tracking.

But since "import fees" cover Canadian duty ( over $150) and Canadian sales taxes (over $40) there should be no difference there except that Canada Post charges the fees on delivery and GSP before shipping.

One difference is that the GSP service fee is ~$5 and the Canada Post service fee is $9.95.

I suspect a lot of the claims that GSP is "more expensive" are based on the pre 2020 duty and tax free allowance for US imports of $20Cdn/$15US.

CBSA and Canada Post quasi-legally ignored low value imports on the sensible basis that it would cost the taxpayer more to assess and collect than could be collected.

But couriers like UPS, FedEx, and GSP/PB could not legally do that and charged service fees of $25 or more to broker the shipments through the border. GSP was the cheapest at that ~$5 charge.

It is noticeable that complaints about the cost of GSP have practically disappeared since last July, although the complaints about slow delivery remain.

reallynicestamps · ‎07-28-2021

There is an article in today's G&M Report on Business, from an executive of DHL, another shipper, about changes since the pandemic, including what can be done through online training and what cannot.

While those sensitive to the butchery of the English language that is business-speak should beware, he mentions in passing that DHL has hired* 3600 new employees since the beginning of the pandemic. I will make the leap that most of those were needed to handle the increase in mail-order shopping and deliveries.

* He said "on-boarding". The Baby Jesus cried.

aramatic · ‎07-28-2021

"It is noticeable that complaints about the cost of GSP have practically disappeared since last July..."

Really? Perhaps people have given up. It would be interesting to know how many have not made purchases they would otherwise have made if it weren't for the inflated shipping costs of the GSP. I've been put off a lot myself. I have to want something desperately to pay US$25 for a $10 item that could be sent by USPS for significantly less (and of course more quickly). For expensive items and bulk purchases GSP isn't such an annoying barrier. American eBayers who probably take the less expensive and quicker Canada Post service for granted will know what I'm talking about if and when eBay.ca rolls out the GSP.

marnotom! · ‎07-28-2021

@aramatic wrote:

The point being that if sellers send directly by using USPS they cut out the unnecessary middleman, Pitney-Bowes, resulting in lower costs and quicker delivery times. And cry me a river that PB went through some tough times before coming up with this scam. It's not my job to keep them afloat.

"Unnecessary middleman?" You've forgotten my point that the GSP is a forwarding service. Sellers like that aspect of the program because they're only responsible for the item's safe passage until the item is received by the Global Shipping Center in Kentucky.

You can choose to use your own forwarding service if you don't want the GSP handling it, you know. Just keep in mind that, unlike with the GSP, you won't be covered by a lot of eBay's protections for buyers once the item reaches the forwarding agent.

I was trying to deliver a sob story on Pitney Bowes' behalf, by the way. I'm just trying to make the point that Pitney Bowes and eBay aren't charities. A lot of people using eBay seem to forget that.

@aramatic wrote:

It would be interesting to know how many have not made purchases they would otherwise have made if it weren't for the inflated shipping costs of the GSP. I've been put off a lot myself. I have to want something desperately to pay US$25 for a $10 item that could be sent by USPS for significantly less (and of course more quickly). For expensive items and bulk purchases GSP isn't such an annoying barrier. American eBayers who probably take the less expensive and quicker Canada Post service for granted will know what I'm talking about if and when eBay.ca rolls out the GSP.

It would be interesting to know how many American eBayers are even aware of the existence of Canada Post. When I did a straw poll on eBay.com a number of years ago, international sales made up a much smaller proportion of sales than US domestic ones for those who did post a response, and sales to Canada were a small proportion of those sellers' international sales. Don't forget, it's called the Global Shipping Program and not the Canada Shipping Program because it serves about 100 other countries in addition to Canada. If sales to Canada were more on American sellers' radar, they may have more reason to make an exception in their use of the GSP and direct ship sales to Canada.

This thread from the .com board is almost two months old, but it's an interesting read to get other perspectives on the GSP, particularly from American sellers:

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/Adding-GSP-should-I-do-it/td-p/31931225

marnotom! · ‎07-28-2021

@reallynicestamps wrote:

GSP specifically says it does not do B2B, and they charge "import fees" which cover duty, sales taxes, and a service charge all in together before the seller is even told to ship to Kentucky.

I agree that it would make many buyers happy if they did show their math, but it would not surprise me if there is a certain amount of fudge in each truckload on the manifest when it crosses the border.

Just as there's a "certain amount of fudge" when you get an estimate to get your roof redone, house painted, et cetera.

I had my house's roof redone a few months ago, and I have no idea how much the roofer spent on shingles, nails, or other materials.

One thing I forgot to mention to @aramatic is that while Pitney Bowes may orchestrate the GSP, they don't do any of the physical work involved with the item; it's all contracted out. The "inflated shipping charges" mostly go to the delivery contractee with possibly a portion of that to Pitney Bowes as a "finder's fee" of sorts.

hlmacdon · ‎07-28-2021

@reallynicestamps wrote:

But since "import fees" cover Canadian duty ( over $150) and Canadian sales taxes (over $40) there should be no difference there except that Canada Post charges the fees on delivery and GSP before shipping.
One difference is that the GSP service fee is ~$5 and the Canada Post service fee is $9.95.

I suspect a lot of the claims that GSP is "more expensive" are based on the pre 2020 duty and tax free allowance for US imports of $20Cdn/$15US.
CBSA and Canada Post quasi-legally ignored low value imports on the sensible basis that it would cost the taxpayer more to assess and collect than could be collected.
But couriers like UPS, FedEx, and GSP/PB could not legally do that and charged service fees of $25 or more to broker the shipments through the border. GSP was the cheapest at that ~$5 charge.
It is noticeable that complaints about the cost of GSP have practically disappeared since last July, although the complaints about slow delivery remain.

Pretty much this. It's the national pastime in Canada to try to avoid paying tax on online purchases and this is where the majority of the complaints stem from. Not surprising when people are comparing DDP vs DDU shipments and many have spent their online career as consumers playing the postal/CBSA lottery.

aramatic · ‎07-29-2021

Final word... not surprising that everyone here makes excuses for the GSP. Very Canadian. My simple point was that it's cheaper and quicker to use USPS for many items, just as we send things south by Canada Post.

lotzofuniquegoodies · ‎07-29-2021

@hlmacdon wrote:
@reallynicestamps wrote:

But since "import fees" cover Canadian duty ( over $150) and Canadian sales taxes (over $40) there should be no difference there except that Canada Post charges the fees on delivery and GSP before shipping.
One difference is that the GSP service fee is ~$5 and the Canada Post service fee is $9.95.

I suspect a lot of the claims that GSP is "more expensive" are based on the pre 2020 duty and tax free allowance for US imports of $20Cdn/$15US.
CBSA and Canada Post quasi-legally ignored low value imports on the sensible basis that it would cost the taxpayer more to assess and collect than could be collected.
But couriers like UPS, FedEx, and GSP/PB could not legally do that and charged service fees of $25 or more to broker the shipments through the border. GSP was the cheapest at that ~$5 charge.
It is noticeable that complaints about the cost of GSP have practically disappeared since last July, although the complaints about slow delivery remain.
Pretty much this. It's the national pastime in Canada to try to avoid paying tax on online purchases and this is where the majority of the complaints stem from. Not surprising when people are comparing DDP vs DDU shipments and many have spent their online career as consumers playing the postal/CBSA lottery.

@aramatic

Not paying tax/processing fees may be part of the problem with GSP for Canadian buyers but it's not all of the problem. For some it has to do with the speed or lack there of. For others it's inflated singular shipping "option" that's included. We use the term "Priority" because there wasn't enough room for "It will get there when it gets there". Then there are the fears of packages that may be urgently required not arriving for the various reasons GSP can have been known to stop in their tracks. Others, it may be what happens when Apple or whoever they are handing it over to gets their hands on your package, never to be seen from again or mysteriously marked Return to Sender because you happened to not be home when your driver arrived. Hey, we tried!! If things do mess up, dealing with trying to retrieve your original funds. Something that has been known to be a major challenge. If your item does happen to not arrive, dealing with trying to find it again from another seller and starting from square one.

Curious to know how US buyers would feel if they were "stuck" with a variation of MP? Would they be comfortable buying from Canadian etc sellers using that type of program? Would they pay the extra for a parcel shipped from Vancouver routed through Toronto intended for LA that got stuck in Chicago along the way? Sorry pal it's spoke and wheel. Or even risking that fun and exciting re-packaging that Canadian buyers have reported, having their precious item arriving damaged. Programs like INR's and NAD's were designed for the benfit of buyers. Something GSP in theory appears to have never been a consideration.

US Buyer: Hmmm. Where do I sign up? Sounds Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!!!

-Lotz

PS. The reason above for using the term "stuck" was because, at times GSP can be the only avalible option for certain hard to find items.

marnotom! · ‎07-30-2021

@aramatic wrote:

Final word... not surprising that everyone here makes excuses for the GSP. Very Canadian. My simple point was that it's cheaper and quicker to use USPS for many items, just as we send things south by Canada Post.

I don't feel I'm making excuses. I'm not the biggest fan of the GSP, either (see the .com thread I posted a link to earlier) but like most shipping methods, it has its place if one is willing to put up with its quirks and learn how to "game" it.

Express Mail is more expensive than small packet/First Class International, but I don't think you'd get many people railing on about how one should avoid Express Mail at all costs just because they're finding sellers using it for ten dollar items. Most people with sense would realize that Express Mail is simply inappropriate for a ten dollar sale and leave it at that.

Recognizing that the GSP is a forwarding service and that it pays taxes and duty on the buyer's behalf has made the program make more sense to me and kept my expectations of the program realistic. Some Canadian eBayers seem to think the GSP is something that it isn't but I have no idea where they're getting these ideas from.

hlmacdon · ‎07-30-2021

@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:
Curious to know how US buyers would feel if they were "stuck" with a variation of MP? Would they be comfortable buying from Canadian etc sellers using that type of program?

There seems to be the assumption that if only GSP didn't exist, sellers would all offer USPS as an alternative, which ignores the reason why those sellers prefer to use the GSP service. Ebay can't force sellers to accept the same level of risk with where and how they choose to ship, that is something down to every seller. Some chose to ship via untracked methods, some will only shipped tracked, and so forth.

I look at it with perspective, as I'm sure US buyers may not be excited about having to deal with untracked Canadian shipments, particularly in a time where things are oft delayed in shipping and people are left wondering where their items are. Likewise, someone will always have a beef with a given shipping service. Some may not like that UPS isn't offered and only Fedex is and there depot is further away, while the opposite may be true for another buyer. In the end the item is either worth it you with the available options or it isn't.

Given the huge number of freight forwarding services that do the same thing that the GSP does I'd say there is broad consumer acceptance for such services across the world. There is a huge forwarding market in China that specifically targets, and does huge business with, US buyers in many niches. So much so many of them end up running ebay selling accounts here after getting all the demand data from their customers.

techristian · ‎08-11-2021

You are right. My wife recently bought me an item using this cash grab. I hear that it is good for overseas buyers though.

Dan

stanger31 · ‎09-25-2021

Hey Aramatic, just as a heads up, I would guess that you would end up paying the import fees no matter what method of purchasing you used (buy it now OR accept offer from seller). I have had a few recent experiences where I purposefully offered below $39.99 for items because the duty/import fees went to zero.

The seller accepted and then all of a sudden, import/duty fees were added. I was stuck paying an extra $6.08 (US) import fee... for used second hand trading cards.

I have also experienced the same thing before and got hammered by import fees by the GSP that weren't part of my offer. The offer page shows them at zero, yet adds them in after it's accepted.

I would love to know how many times they collect these fees and then are not required to pay them, leaving them sitting in pockets of Pitney Bowes. If that is the case, they should be refunded. Fees should not be collected if they are not required to be paid and if Pitney Bowes can't figure it out, they should reevaluate their business - it is completely dishonest.

Paying taxes of second hand goods?

Paying import taxes when they aren't being asked for at the border?

I'm very confused how they get away with this.

If I were you, I would expect Import fees to be added, even if they aren't showing up in the offer or buy it now. Something isn't right about this whole set up.

reallynicestamps · ‎09-25-2021

@stanger31

Yes there are taxes on second hand goods. I buy most of my stock at thrift shops. One even has a sign posted to remind customers that they will be paying GST and PST on their purchases.

The import fees for returning Canadians who have been out of the country for more than 48 hours are still based on a $200 duty free allowance.

For shipped imports from the USA and Mexico the duty free allowance is $150 and the tax free allowance is $40.

For shipped imports from non-NAFTA countries is still $20. But we do have Free Trade with much of the First World through CETA and TPP.

marnotom! · ‎09-25-2021

@stanger31 wrote:

I have had a few recent experiences where I purposefully offered below $39.99 for items because the duty/import fees went to zero.

The seller accepted and then all of a sudden, import/duty fees were added. I was stuck paying an extra $6.08 (US) import fee... for used second hand trading cards.

I have also experienced the same thing before and got hammered by import fees by the GSP that weren't part of my offer. The offer page shows them at zero, yet adds them in after it's accepted.

Import fees aren't just taxes and duty. They're also a plethora of processing and clearance charges. Listings that you see that have the price converted to an amount below C$40.00 have those processing charges added to the shipping charge, so in a sense you're correct that all GSP-forwarded items have import charges.

My guess is that the best offer you made that attracted US$6.08 in import charges didn't fall below the C$40.00 threshold after your offer was converted to Canadian dollars. The converted amounts you see are approximations and buyers need to consider some fudge factor for their offers if they want them converted to a certain amount.

I'm guessing that the import charges you're seeing at checkout for items that are below the C$40 for taxation are the processing charges. There have been posts in the past about the shipping charge going up in these instances, so maybe this has been sorted out.

As used items are just as subject to tax as new ones, all you're really saving in all this is the difference between your offer and the seller's asking price and maybe a bit in the GST you'd be paying to any Canadian retailer registered to collect GST.