Ebay return request, customer said item not in box

[road_warrior.2008]

I recently sold a digital camera to a buyer in Texas. After the package was delivered, the buyer messaged me and asked if I had shipped the item in 2 boxes because the box they received only had a charger and a few packing peanuts. I replied to them that the items were all sent in one box. They got back to me and said that it looked like the box had been cut open along the side and then retaped. They even attached pictures. (Picture attached). I replied that it may have been stolen either sometime during delivery or after delivery and to contact the delivery service. This opened a item not received request from ebay. I contacted them again and said that I could not be held responsible of possible theft. That closed the not recieved request.

Then, shortly after, they opened a item not as described request because of missing pieces and requested a full refund. Again I told them that items disappearing during or after delivery are not my responsibility. I sent the messages through to ebay through the request form.

Now, ebay wants me to send them a return label for the item. I feel that it would be foolish to pay $20 more for a label and get an empty box back. Of course, my funds have been put on hold for the full amount. 

I am looking for suggestions on how to possibly handle this now. I don't know if ebay will side with me or them and I would be out of pocket. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[rocketscollectibles]

I'm surprised that ebay allow buyers to open a second case after a first case was closed in seller's favor. Seems weird to me. 

That being said unless it's against rules to open a second case, i don't think there's anything you can do to have that case close in your favor. You may have to deal it like a usual item not as described case. To provide them a label and take the return. If you decline or ask ebay to step in you'll lose everything. Some scammers bluff and give up when it's time to return. And you indeed seems to face a scam attempt. 

If they return an empty box, then yourself claim you did not received what you sent. 

This is how i personally would handle it. I would tell em to return the box with the full content they received. I would also scare the buyer professionally by inserting that the package will be inspected once returned, and the case reported as fraud to authorities. That ebay will have to revise it as it's a suspicious one. Etc. The purpose is to write in a way that you scare a scammer while you not trigger a legit buyer, scammers often give up when they start having the idea that there is a possibility they run into trouble. Some are bluffing or are just not solid/smart enough to handle their scams properly. I scared more than one buyer having shady claims. It works. Just need to be professional. 

[daisydaisy999]

Did you send it Canada Post? I have heard on the US board that USPS weighs the package at various points along it's trip so I assume CP must as well? If they do and you can get that info that should tell you at what point it went missing - if it did at all... Floating that info to the customer might also be enough to get them to close the case if they are scamming...

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@daisydaisy999 wrote:

Did you send it Canada Post? I have heard on the US board that USPS weighs the package at various points along it's trip so I assume CP must as well? If they do and you can get that info that should tell you at what point it went missing - if it did at all... Floating that info to the customer might also be enough to get them to close the case if they are scamming...

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@daisydaisy999 

@road_warrior.2008 

Also not perfect proof but the buyer can also check the weight that was inputted for the original package and the package that arrived. It is ALWAYS a good idea for the receiver to confirm the box was not tampered with before they personally open. IF/WHEN customs inspects a package they are SUPPOSED to reseal with customs tape. If a box is moving on the production line and is opening it should have postal service tape on it to reseal for safety purposes. At one point in time parcels actually got marked  "Inspected by Customs". Not sure if this still happens as reliably as it should.

-Lotz

Several years ago when I was sending small replacement motors on a regular basis, I had one pkg arrive missing the enclosed motor. The parcel arrived with USPS tape on the package and no motor. (1.5 Kg on box label became a 200 gram empty box). (The majority of sellers do not ship empty boxes or incomplete items. It's just not a good business practice.)At the time was straight forward to put in a claim and send a replacement with the use of some common sense as to what may have happened. From a personal perspective, this is really not an INAD. More like a claim/replacement and/or refund situation. Unfortunately eBay (the company) does not grasp these possibilities and alternative solution options.

[msau4301]

Did you have any insurance on the package? Canada Post usually has at least $100, more if you paid extra for insurance so you might get at least that back.

I agree withyou that it doesn't really make sense to pay $20 to ship it back if once you receive it the buyer gets refunded by eBay anyways for returning item. Unless as rocket suggests you then claim you didn't receive your item back complete but seems more like it's something for insurance to cover (theft) not for it being not as described.

Alos, not sure if it went through customs (was it to US?) or across Canada, that might make a difference in terms of how insurance might cover it if customs was involved or just the shipping provider.

[pjcdn2005]

Sellers are responsible for the buyer receiving the product in the condition as advertised. Since EBay has no way of knowing what you sent or what the buyer received they will usually assume the buyer is telling the truth. They will expect you to either accept the return and pay for a label or refund without requiring a return.  If you don't do either and the buyer asks eBay to step in they may refund the buyers from your funds without a return and you may receive an unresolved claim defect.  

As a another poster mentioned,  the buyer may be lying and want to keep everything so if you accept the return and send the label they may not follow through with the return and you would not have to refund.

You can apply for the Canada Post insurance unless you sent the package with small packet.  They may want to contact the buyer so you should ask for their email address so that CP can contact them. 

There are always exceptions to the way things normally work so if you report the buyer and if the buyer does this regularly, it's possible the outcome will be different but it is a risk.

[flipistics]

As a seller, it is your responsibility to get the item to the buyer. In most cases, you are choosing the delivery method, deciding on insurance, and arranging all the details. That means it is your responsibility to contact the carriers and do all the legwork when something goes wrong. Put yourself in the buyer's position and ask yourself what your response would be if the situation was reversed.

I doubt the buyer is scamming you. It doesn't appear to fit a normal profile for a scammer (they probably wouldn't ask if you sent an additional box). It doesn't appear to be porch pirates (the one case where you might not be responsible) because they probably would have grabbed the whole box and ran, not cut it open. To me, that leaves theft with the courier or incompetant border inspection agents who didn't bother to properly secure the box again. I suspect the latter based on the handiwork in the picture.

IMO you should be putting in a claim with the shipper and refunding the buyer (find out first if you have to accept a return in order to be reimbursed by the shipper). At worse you should get the shipping back. If the camera was in its original packaging inside the box, you'll probably get refunded up to the insurance limit you chose. The shipper should have some sort of record showing that the box suddenly became lighter before its final destination, at least if it was travelling in the USA.

Probably not what you want to hear, and others may have different opinions, but that's mine.

[pjcdn2005]

It sounds like the buyer first opened an item not received claim and lost because there was proof of delivery.  They then opened a not as described claim which is allowed since it is a different type of claim.  

I think that if a buyer is purposely scamming and is familiar with the system that they would probably not have opened an inr first.  They would have known to open a return.  

[marnotom!]

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@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:

Also not perfect proof but the buyer can also check the weight that was inputted for the original package and the package that arrived. It is ALWAYS a good idea for the receiver to confirm the box was not tampered with before they personally open. IF/WHEN customs inspects a package they are SUPPOSED to reseal with customs tape. If a box is moving on the production line and is opening it should have postal service tape on it to reseal for safety purposes. At one point in time parcels actually got marked  "Inspected by Customs". Not sure if this still happens as reliably as it should.

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I've seen stickers on items handled by Canada Post that note that the parcel or package was received in damaged condition.  Do other carriers label damaged cargo similarly, @lotzofuniquegoodies?  I'm a bit mystified that there's nothing on this particular box to note damage if it was handled by the carrier in the state it was delivered in.

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@marnotom! wrote:

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@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:

Also not perfect proof but the buyer can also check the weight that was inputted for the original package and the package that arrived. It is ALWAYS a good idea for the receiver to confirm the box was not tampered with before they personally open. IF/WHEN customs inspects a package they are SUPPOSED to reseal with customs tape. If a box is moving on the production line and is opening it should have postal service tape on it to reseal for safety purposes. At one point in time parcels actually got marked  "Inspected by Customs". Not sure if this still happens as reliably as it should.

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I've seen stickers on items handled by Canada Post that note that the parcel or package was received in damaged condition.  Do other carriers label damaged cargo similarly, @lotzofuniquegoodies?  I'm a bit mystified that there's nothing on this particular box to note damage if it was handled by the carrier in the state it was delivered in.

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@marnotom! 

I've seen "inspected by customs" on stuff coming to/from USA/internationally but not in not in a few years. No idea what the current procedure. When I worked with a freight forwarder who was involved with intl shipping they had inspectors in all the time for stuff that was in bond. Anything inspected had the tape. For Canadapost/USPS maybe @dinomitesales  can shed some light on what they have seen or is familiar with on procedures.

-Lotz

[marnotom!]

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@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:

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@marnotom! 

I've seen "inspected by customs" on stuff coming to/from USA/internationally but not in not in a few years. No idea what the current procedure. When I worked with a freight forwarder who was involved with intl shipping they had inspectors in all the time for stuff that was in bond. Anything inspected had the tape. For Canadapost/USPS maybe @dinomitesales  can shed some light on what they have seen or is familiar with on procedures.

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Thanks for that, but I was asking about stickers or tape that identified packages that were handled by the shipper in an already damaged state.

[ilikehockeyjerseys]

You can approach something like this two ways.

One, send a refund, block the buyer, and use the report buyer feature to report the buyer to eBay (to help other sellers in case it is a scam), and move on. Nothing works out 100 percent of the time. This is either an honest buyer in a **bleep**py situation, or it's a scammer. You don't know. Fighting the scammer and/or assisting the customer with an insurance case will take hours of your time. Unless this is a very expense item, it may not be worth it.

The second option would be to apologize and let them know that prior to issuing a refund, you would like to assist them with opening a mail theft report with USPS (https://www.uspis.gov/report) and a police report. Instruct them to keep the packaging and if possible to provide you with photos of it (which in this case they have done). Don't accuse them of fraud, the point is that the two of you were stolen from so you need to file the appropriate reports prior to issuing the refund. Instruct them to ask their local mail carrier, roommates, neighbours, etc if they saw anything or if the package was delivered damaged. Instruct them to let you know if they uncover anything, otherwise you will file the report as is within x amount of days and then issue them their refund.

That would be a huge waste of time for a lower priced item. If it is a scammer, they may get spooked and you will get the "oh my neighbour came by, he thought it was for him so he opened it and forgot to put the camera back in, no need to file the reports, thanks!" - if it's not a scammer, they may be happy, upset, or indifferent to the idea of you filing a mail theft report prior to you issuing a refund, but they probably will understand. 

You can try to appeal to eBay's customer service and ask if they will close the case given an INR was opened, or if they will cover the refund as a courtesy given the buyer opening both kinds of cases. They will probably say no, but it is something that eBay does do in rare cases. They will likely instruct you to still supply a label. 

At this point, you either need to supply a label or issue a refund. If you don't do either, eBay will refund the buyer. You will get a defect.

If you want to go all Batman on this, message the buyer and explain that you are sorry their item was stolen from the mail, and that you will gladly refund them (or provide a label) by the case deadline. Let them know that you will be required to open a Police Report and USPS mail theft report after you issue the refund. Ask them to check with family, roommates, neighbours, their mail carrier, etc to see if they have any information about the package or if they may have opened it. If the item turns up before the case deadline, instruct them to let you know by closing the case.

Or, you could just refund and move on as it may not be worth the hassle. 

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@marnotom! wrote:

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@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:

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@marnotom! 

I've seen "inspected by customs" on stuff coming to/from USA/internationally but not in not in a few years. No idea what the current procedure. When I worked with a freight forwarder who was involved with intl shipping they had inspectors in all the time for stuff that was in bond. Anything inspected had the tape. For Canadapost/USPS maybe @dinomitesales  can shed some light on what they have seen or is familiar with on procedures.

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Thanks for that, but I was asking about stickers or tape that identified packages that were handled by the shipper in an already damaged state.

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@road_warrior.2008 

@marnotom! 

According to the OP the shipment went out his door complete to the buyer. Something happened between shipping and arrival. Either customs or it got opened by  nefarious parties prior to delivery. I do understand accidents can occur but in this particular case that doesn't sound like what happened. 

I know there are sellers that sell goods that would be considered store returns where they have been retaped. Doesn't sound like this is what happened in this case. That's a whole other can of worms. Just like buyers getting a return label and shipping back an empty box. Not cool, but it happens. 

As a side this wasn't a "problem" pre covid when items that required signatures got signatures. I used to sign for hundreds of packages daily. If something arrived in a questionable condition we could sign either the waybill or scanner with notes stating so and we would fully inspect and advise within a specific timeframe. 2 perks of driver to customer. Confirmed delivery by intended party and condition (exception) notes if required. Now majority of deliveries are drop and dash. For historical purposes UPS and a few others consider a 2 or more pc shipment as 2 or more 1 pc shipments. It is technically not complete until it ALL has been delivered. But not really how they see it. 

-Lotz

[fergua3 · Accepted solution]

Canada Post insurance does not cover stolen or missing or broken items.  It only covers a package that is lost in transit and does not get delivered or returned to sender.  Not sure what the various courier's policy's are for their insurance.

The 'empty box' scam has been around since there was online shopping.  So, this could be an inexperienced scammer who handled it clumsily by opening an INR first, when they should have just opened a SNAD, or it could be that the item was stolen at some point along its journey.  You will never know and Ebay will always side with the buyer in cases like this.

When i ship expensive things abroad, i'm always as vague as possible on the Customs form about what the item is.  If a package says 'iphone' or 'digital camera' it makes it easier for someone to identify a juicy target and steal the contents if possible.

Unless the buyer closes the case, you will lose, i'm afraid.  No point in sending a return label because you will not get anything of value back.  Just let them keep what they've got and refund.  Do it before Ebay closes the case in the buyer's favour because then they will not only force you to refund, you won't get your FVF back and you will get a defect, which is bad.

It's a bitter pill to swallow, i know, but it is one of the downsides of selling online. 

There is one trick you can use, that might scare an amateur scammer.   Tell them you are going to file a report with the USPS Inspector Generals Office for them to launch an investigation into postal theft and advise the buyer that they might be contacted for information and to answer a few simple questions.  

If this is an amateur scammer it may freak them out and they may all of a sudden find the camera.  Slim chance but it's better than no chance.  But do it quickly, as the clock is running on the SNAD case.

[fergua3]

just to add to my above post, you SHOULD contact USPS and report the theft.  Not much will come of one report but if they get a few from the same area they will definitely investigate.   

[road_warrior.2008]

I want to thank all of you that replied. I think that I am going to bite the bullet on this one. I don't want to lose any standings with ebay and I am sure that they will stand by the buyer. Thanks again.