eBay

terminalcity · ‎03-08-2016

here's the , and attached is a picture of one side of the case that was conveniently omitted from the listing. What do you all think?

"LHT HAM" truns out to be be Lufthansa Aerotechnic, the division that takes care of aircraft avionics.

I'm not happy-- I find the ad to be deceptive as it left out the fact that "property of LHT HAM" is molded into the cases. Seller says they are as described. Thoughts?

marnotom! · ‎03-21-2016

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

Your reply doesn't make sense to me.
Both sylvie and I agree that if a feature of an item isn't mentioned in the description or shown in pictures, the buyer can claim the item is not as described.
You seem to be insisting that since the problem with the OP's item wasn't described in the listing the item is as described?? That's the opposite of what sylvie said in her post.

Our readings of Sylvie's post appear to be at odds, then.

Let's talk purses again. A listing for purse thoroughly describes every aspect of the purse, such as the length of the straps, the material used in the stitching, and so on, except for its lining colour, which is stated as green instead of blue. If you purchase the purse expecting it to have green lining, you have grounds for a "not as described" claim or complaint because you received a purse with blue lining.

On the other hand, if the seller completely forgets (or "forgets") to note the purse's lining colour in the listing description and you purchase it expecting it to be green and it's actually blue, my reading of eBay's policies and procedures is that the buyer doesn't have grounds for a "not as described" claim or complaint because it's based purely on the buyer's expectations and not on the listing description.

Again, this is just how I interpret eBay's policy on "not as described" items, which I read as based on items matching their descriptions in listings. Perhaps Sylvie will return to elaborate on her post.

sylviebee · ‎03-21-2016

marnotom!, My post above was in complete agreement with PJ. and I think it was very clear.

I repeat: When selling a purse and similar items, when only one side is shown in the photos buyers assume that both sides are the same.

A very few (poor) sellers will show only the side with less damage and/or the more desirable side. That is clearly a case for item not as described.

While it is not necessary to describe and post photos of every minute detail, it is important to disclose all relevant information about the item.

The seller being discussed in this thread left out the most important information about the item.

Not to show that side that essentially states that the item is the Property of Lufthansa is clearly a case of Item Not as Described.

I agree with the original poster. I wouldn't want to travel with that case either as it begs the question.

What you've posted above about lining colour is ********* .

marnotom! · ‎03-21-2016

@sylviebee wrote:

marnotom!, My post above was in complete agreement with PJ. and I think it was very clear.

My apologies, then. I read your "exactly" to mean "that's exactly correct" in response to PJ's question. That coloured the rest of my reading of your response.

@sylviebee wrote:

I repeat: When selling a purse and similar items, when only one side is shown in the photos buyers assume that both sides are the same.

A very few (poor) sellers will show only the side with less damage and/or the more desirable side. That is clearly a case for item not as described.

You're actually not repeating this; it's new information. I read your post to mean that unscrupulous sellers in your category sometimes omit important information in their listings and get away with it in the event of a SNAD claim or complaint.

I don't purchase or sell in your category so I defer to your experience there. However, I wouldn't be surprised if omitted information is sometimes dismissed as reason for a SNAD claim/complaint for certain other items or categories. This eBay help page, for example, doesn't make explicit reference to omitted information, just vague references to "correct" or "proper" descriptions and items "not matching" their descriptions, making me wonder if whoever handles the claim/complaint has to make a judgment call. After all, in my second purse example, what's "incorrect" about its description? How does the purse not match its description?

@sylviebee wrote:

What you've posted above about lining colour is ********* .

Fair enough, but as usual you're not explaining why you hold that view and just assuming that I know what you're suggesting here. I'm not taking issue with your extensive background in vintage purses, but I would like more insight into why my reading of eBay policy is, um, nonsense.

terminalcity · ‎03-21-2016

it took me a while to understand this, as it's actually quite philosophical in the logical sense...

"Item not as described" means:

- the written description does not match the qualities of the actual item, and/or

- the actual item does not match the written description

It's a two-way street.

I'm not a lawyer but I think the omission of important details is an established wrong in contract law. For example when you buy a house, and are surprised to find out there's a buried oil tank in the back yard that will cost you $10,000 to remove, the seller has left out items that are significant to the contract. The seller accurately described the house itself but left out the oil tank int he back yard. . Not a lawyer, but I am fairly certain that in contract, there is a presumption that the seller is not going to leave out details that might influence the buyer's decision.

Anyway my conclusion form all of this is that accurate item descriptions go both ways: the item has to match the description, and the decription has to match the item. If not, it's "item not as described".

sylviebee · ‎03-21-2016

marnotom!, It's not new information. I said exactly the same thing I said the first time but in different words.

What I said applies to ALL collectibles and not only purses.

When selling a vintage/antique/used iitem on line, the seller has to describe all damage and anomalies and to do otherwise means that the item isn't as described.

The things you're posting are so out of whack with the way I buy and sell on eBay I don't know where to start.

So I won't.

marnotom! · ‎03-21-2016

@terminalcity wrote:

I'm not a lawyer but I think the omission of important details is an established wrong in contract law. For example when you buy a house, and are surprised to find out there's a buried oil tank in the back yard that will cost you $10,000 to remove, the seller has left out items that are significant to the contract. The seller accurately described the house itself but left out the oil tank int he back yard. . Not a lawyer, but I am fairly certain that in contract, there is a presumption that the seller is not going to leave out details that might influence the buyer's decision.

That's probably why omissions aren't explicitly stated in the eBay help pages that cover Item Not as Described claims. There has to be some way to prove intent to defraud by omission--which isn't easy to do in some cases--and there has to be some way to prove or disprove that the nature of the sold item is significantly affected by this omitted detail and if this detail would have affected the buyer's decision to purchase the item.

marnotom! · ‎03-21-2016

@sylviebee wrote:

marnotom!, It's not new information. I said exactly the same thing I said the first time but in different words.

The first time you said:

That's a common trick used by a (very) few sellers. They show the side which in good condition and "forget" to post photos of the damaged side. ALL damage and anomalies have to be reported in the description as well as photographed.

The second time you said (the new information is in boldface):

When selling a purse and similar items, when only one side is shown in the photos buyers assume that both sides are the same.

A very few (poor) sellers will show only the side with less damage and/or the more desirable side.

@sylviebee wrote:

The things you're posting are so out of whack with the way I buy and sell on eBay I don't know where to start.
So I won't.

You don't have to start anywhere. All you need do is focus on why you think my hypothetical purse lining example is a bunch of asterisks.

terminalcity · ‎03-22-2016

This is just getting silly.

pjcdn2005 · ‎03-25-2016

@marnotom! wrote:
@terminalcity wrote:

I'm not a lawyer but I think the omission of important details is an established wrong in contract law. For example when you buy a house, and are surprised to find out there's a buried oil tank in the back yard that will cost you $10,000 to remove, the seller has left out items that are significant to the contract. The seller accurately described the house itself but left out the oil tank int he back yard. . Not a lawyer, but I am fairly certain that in contract, there is a presumption that the seller is not going to leave out details that might influence the buyer's decision.

That's probably why omissions aren't explicitly stated in the eBay help pages that cover Item Not as Described claims. There has to be some way to prove intent to defraud by omission--which isn't easy to do in some cases--and there has to be some way to prove or disprove that the nature of the sold item is significantly affected by this omitted detail and if this detail would have affected the buyer's decision to purchase the item.

I have no idea where you coming up with that information as eBay does not require proof that there was intent to defraud and does not require proof that the omission may have affected the buyer's decision to purchase the item. In fact they don't even require that a buyer submit pictures proving that the item is not as described. They may say that the buyer should provide a picture but in the majority of cases they take the buyer's word for it and simply ask them to return the item. If the buyer doesn't want to return the item then they don't get refunded. It's pretty straightforward most of the time.

marnotom! · ‎03-25-2016

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I have no idea where you coming up with that information as eBay does not require proof that there was intent to defraud and does not require proof that the omission may have affected the buyer's decision to purchase the item. In fact they don't even require that a buyer submit pictures proving that the item is not as described. They may say that the buyer should provide a picture but in the majority of cases they take the buyer's word for it and simply ask them to return the item. If the buyer doesn't want to return the item then they don't get refunded. It's pretty straightforward most of the time.

Just saying that eBay likely doesn't make mention of omission as a condition for filing a not-as-described claim because it gives them more wriggle-room depending on the nature of the claim.

Yes, eBay more often than not will side with the buyer, but it's not always a slam-dunk.

terminalcity · ‎03-30-2016

Here's a recent example of a seller omitting details that turned into a lawsuit. The seller accuratley described the house, but left out one detail: the house had a stalker who likes to harass the occupants with weird letters!

marnotom! · ‎03-30-2016

@terminalcity wrote:

Here's a recent example of a seller omitting details that turned into a lawsuit. The seller accuratley described the house, but left out one detail: the house had a stalker who likes to harass the occupants with weird letters!

Did the buyers file a "not as described" claim with eBay prior to the lawsuit?