What the ____ is happening in the USA!!

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

A couple of months ago a fellow walked into a theatre and started shooting people.

The other day a fellow walks in a mall and starts shooting but luckily his gun jammed and only two people were killed.

Today a man walks in an elementary school in Connecticut. And 27 are dead, including children. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5569025c-4613-11e2-ae8d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2F3FPan2u

[puckstopshere]

The Second amendment, as ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

This amendment had been interpreted as being the right of each state to have an armed militia - today, this would be the state police.  These "militia members" were the "people" who had the right to bear arms.  This did not give each citizen the right to bear arms unless they were part of the militia.

The situation that was apparently resolved by the U.S. Supreme Court this year.  They interpreted this differently.  Initially, the first part of the amendment was primary and the second part was secondary.  The Supreme court took the second part - the right of each citizen to bear arms - as the primary intent of the founding fathers. 

The Supreme COurt had the opportunity to remove the individual right to bear arms - and chose not to.

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

The assault rifle used at Sandy Hook is the most sought after. Not sure why

It’s because the calibre is legal in some states. Lanza’s rifle was either a 22 or 223.....I've heard both reports. 22’s can actually do more damage than larger calibres. Some 22’s can even pierce some protective vests. Other states people can get just about whatever they want in an assault rifle.

the religious types are blaming the parents for kicking God out of our schools.

Well they’re as demented as Pat Robertson. All countries and all religions have their fanatics. We have our Christian fanatics but they don’t get the press that others do.

other religious types are blaming God for not being there fro these children

A quick run through history shows that if there is a ‘god’ he really doesn’t care. Yeah I know the standard answer….’he works in mysterious ways’. Well based on his resume, he should be fired for incompetence.

there is a strong public opinion supporting the arming of teachers. The suggestion is that three or four volunteer teachers or staff members be trained and armed. I wonder how much collateral damage there would be during a gun battle between Glock-toting teachers and a mentally challenged individual with an assault rifle. Then there would be the situation where an armed teacher feels threatened by a student, pulls out the gun and blows him or her away.

Theirs is a knee jerk reaction. The negative sides of their idea is just too much to even contemplate. Next thing they will want all teachers armed with grenades........just in case!

I wonder how the founding fathers would have approached this right if they'd had a crystal ball and could forsee the future.

Technically all we ever hear is “the right to bear arms”. In reality there is much more to the 2nd Amendment in text. I says in full……”A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

In 1791 when the 2nd was passed it was a different time as you have pointed out. Also does even the existence of a militia mean that people should have guns in their homes or carry them on their person or does it really mean that guns would be available to the people from a militia location? I was in the militia and the guns were stored there. I have been at militia armouries in the US and they have their arsenal in the building. So it’s all in how one deciphers the 2nd Amendment in it’s full context.

Oops! I see you did comment on that in post 80. Oh well, I might as well leave my thoughts on it as well.

The Supreme Court may have ratified the ‘right to bear arms’, but my guess is there was a lot of both personal and outside politics behind that decision. As a lawyer once said to me….’you can go to court to seek justice….but it doesn’t mean you will find it’.

There are too many guns in the US now and too many people who support the 'right'. Then along with the Supreme Court's decision I doubt that things will change. It's a chicken and egg problem but in this case it's which came first ....the gun or the criminal. Most people who own guns never use them much. They sit in a closet (in the US) or in a cabinet to be part of the home display decoration. How many 'innocent' people have actually had a situation arise where they have had to defend themselves or their family with the use of a gun.........I've never seen any reliable stats on that. There have been liquor stores and variety stores where a clerk has defended themselves against a robbery but generally speaking with the average person....it rarely happens. And even if an innocent person is carrying....if someone gets the 'drop' on them.....now the criminal has two guns.

Eventually this will all blow over and things will go back to the US version of 'normal'. The only exception will be that there are now more guns in homes and on the street for whomever to use for whatever reason.

The US needs more people helping with mental health, but even then, would that have stopped an Adam Lanza? I've never read that he did get any help with his problems and that the mother felt she could deal with it. So even if the help is there.....if someone doesn't ask for it.....then we're back at square one.  

[art-in-the-making]

Most survivalists aren’t worried as much about an attack from some other country. From that perspective and especially when it comes to the USA, anyone who attacked the country would have to face a gun behind nearly every blade of grass. That would be the positive side of gun ownership.

A majority of survivalists look at catastrophes such as a crash in the economy, or sudden destruction by weather, or a civil war, and some even contemplate the idea of an asteroid hitting earth. All of these scenarios would bring on a collapse in the civilization and the need for food and water and transportation and gas, and at that point the people they will be afraid of……..are their own. Then the only law would be personal survival.

I really don't know what the chances of any breakdown in society coming down are.

My gut feeling is "slim-to-none".

But I do have a few thoughts. The point I was getting at above is that yes, I agree, America as it exists would likely be only challenged from within. But I would say the chances are high that anyone, (whether a corporate or political force) challenging the status quo would come armed-to-the-teeth.  Well beyond the capacity of most countries, let alone weekend warriors, to resist. Blackwater style.

"a gun behind every blade of grass"

The citizenry of the U.S. isn't made up of Mujahudeen. 99% of the people out there can't live without a certain brand of yogurt, a GPS and the weather channel...

The only scenario where the survivalist would be a force to reckon with is that post-apocalyptic "Mad Max" type world. Where it's a scramble for food, water and gasoline, as you say. Where the most powerful weapon can be slung on your back and the most powerful military group is four guys in a jeep.

Not gonna happen.

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

The citizenry of the U.S. isn't made up of Mujahudeen. 99% of the people out there can't live without a certain brand of yogurt, a GPS and the weather channel...

LOL…..yes you are quite right, yogurt and a GPS and for dessert probably a Starbucks.

What I meant by ‘every blade of grass’ is that although there are a lot of gun owners in the US, there is also I high availability of guns, not just on store shelves but from manufacturers.....and there are a lot… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Firearms_manufacturers_in_the_United_States  , so if there was a need I think most of those yogurt scooping, Starbuck drinkers would for the most part fall into lock and load very quickly. Of course there will always be people who simply aren’t into it no matter what they’re holding, violence isn’t part of who they are.

The only scenario where the survivalist would be a force to reckon with is that post-apocalyptic "Mad Max" type world. Where it's a scramble for food, water and gasoline, as you say. Where the most powerful weapon can be slung on your back and the most powerful military group is four guys in a jeep. Not gonna happen.

Well, never say never. Anything could happen from a shift in a part of the earth’s crust, to an asteroid hitting either the US or one of the oceans creating a massive tsunami. Even some sort of overwhelming disease. There could also be that old favourite…… war. Anything could turn Americans into their own version of the Mujahudeen.

And actually 4 guys in a jeep are not that powerful. They’re in reality, easy targets.

[puckstopshere]

survivalists

Interestingly enough, many survivalists feel that the biggest threat is their own government.  They do not trust the government to protect their rights and freedoms . 

The Constitution - the second amendment - gave the right to bear arms.  This was partially for protection from outside the U.S. and partially to keep the government in check.

I have heard a number of gun supporters on CNN express the belief that, were the government to outlaw gun ownership, the next step would be dictatorship or a military junta-style takeover.

[puckstopshere]

On the news, they said that several school districts in Texas carry concealed firearms.

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

Texas has some of the most lax gun laws in the USA and even school teachers may carry guns and I know a Texas lady who doesn’t feel she is properly dressed to go out without her chrome plated S&W in her purse but……..Texas has the second highest rate of gun murders in the USA. Texas is only beaten by California with twice that amount.

All those people who say that the more guns there are the less criminals will consider acts of crime because “god created man but Colonel Colt made them equal”, should look at the stats. Then compare that to countries with heavily regulated gun laws such as Canada and Britain.

2011 Stats…. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state 

[puckstopshere]

The sickness continues.

Enterprising Americans are setting up scam web sites to collect money in the names of the victims and keep it for themselves.  None of these sites has been authorized by any of the families to use their kids names. 

The family of Noah Pozner challenged one web site and were able to take the name from the owner.  They have had to buy other websites from the scammers. 

Over 50 scam websites have been set up so far.

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

Somehow my title of this thread seems appropriate once again.

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

Dec 21 2012 Four people died on a Pennsylvania highway on Friday when a gunman shot dead three people and later was killed in a shootout with police, authorities said.

Three state troopers were injured in the incident in Frankstown Township, about 100 miles (160 km) east of Pittsburgh.

Investigators suspect the shooter might have been driving when he opened fire, shooting people for unknown reasons, the Pittsburgh Tribune Review reported, citing an official with the Blair County Emergency Management Agency.

The unidentified highway shooter killed two other men and a woman, the Altoona Mirror reported, citing the prosecutor, Blair County District Attorney Richard Consiglio.

One trooper was hit in his bulletproof vest and another was hit by flying glass when the shooter fired on his car, the Mirror said. The third trooper was injured in a crash involving the suspect, the newspaper reported, citing Consiglio.

http://www.lfpress.com/2012/12/21/four-dead-3-police-wounded-in-pennsylvania-shooting

[puckstopshere]

Six Alberta schools turned to crisis mode this week after a series of violent threats, including one case in which a student was arrested at home with what police called a high-powered rifle.

The threats, investigated Thursday and Friday, came one week after the massacre at Sandy Hook school in Newtown, Conn. Officials across Alberta say they’re now on alert for any threat, however credible.

The most serious case was in Ponoka, Alta., about an hour south of Edmonton. Ponoka Composite High School was locked down Friday after what the school board called “an alleged threat of violence” against the high school. A 17-year-old male student at the school was arrested soon after at his home, where police also say they found guns, including what they called simply a “high-powered” rifle.

The teen, who can’t be identified under youth justice laws, faces charges of uttering threats, unsafe storage of a firearm and possession of weapons dangerous to the public peace. He’s due in court Dec. 28. RCMP refused to discuss the case, and it’s unclear what the threat was.

Students were locked down at the Ponoka school before being sent home, calling their parents to tell them what happened.

“He just phoned me at 11 and said, ‘Mom, the school’s had some kind of threat and they’re sending buses,’ ” said Lorrie Jess, a local business owner and trustee whose son attends the Ponoka school. “I don’t know what to make of it.”

The five other cases have proven to be false alarms, with no charges laid. They included a high school in the small city of Medicine Hat, two schools in the town of Devon and two in the town of Rocky Mountain House, with officials across the province saying the Sandy Hook shootings have everyone erring on the side of caution.

“There is certainly no doubt that Sandy Hook moved the line from where it was. There’s no doubt about that at all,” said Superintendent Brian Celli of Wild Rose Public Schools, which includes one of the two Rocky Mountain House schools – one public, one Catholic, both under the same roof and closed Friday as a precaution.

In that case, a threat was reported to police Thursday and later found to have been “construed over the course of a couple days,” police said. Officers found “no direct threat to cause harm to any student, teacher or towards the school.”

In Devon, comments made on Facebook by a student talking about “a possible act of violence” led police to notify the student’s current and former schools, officials said. Police found “no indication that this person was to carry out the threat.” The current school, Riverview Middle School, decided to stay open; the former school, Holy Spirit Catholic, closed Friday and postponed its Thursday evening holiday concert. Riverview gave parents as much information as it could, Black Gold Regional Schools district principal Norm Dargis said. “I don’t think we’re doing anybody any service by keeping things in our hat,” he said.

Medicine Hat’s Crescent Heights High School was closed Friday as a “precautionary measure,” after a threat later “defined as a low risk to students and staff,” Superintendent Grant Henderson said in a letter to parents.

Alberta’s Education Minister was watching the situations, with a spokeswoman backing schools’ plans to shut the doors if safety is remotely in doubt. “In an effort for kids’ safety, we always want to make sure they err on the side of caution,” spokeswoman Kim Capstick said.

The province’s schools are now on a two-week holiday break, with some set to re-evaluate lock-down procedures. “I mean, are these hoaxes or what? It’s going to be a good time for schools to revisit their lock-down procedures, and a good chance to talk to parents and reassure them about the procedures,” Alberta School Boards Association president Jacquie Hansen said.

In Rocky Mountain House, Mr. Celli’s board plans to do just that.

“I think one of the conversations we’re all going to have is: ‘What is this going to look like going forward?’ ” he said. “I believe if most of us were pushed [for a prediction when the threat was first made], would we have believed something would actually happen? Probably not, but folks in Sandy Hook might not have either.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/alberta-schools-on-edge-after-threats/article6684795/

[puckstopshere]

New details emerge about school shooter Adam Lanza

He was the awkward, peculiar kid who wore the same clothes to school every day.

He rarely spoke and even gave a school presentation entirely by computer, never uttering a word.

He liked tinkering with computers and other gadgets, and seemed to enjoy playing a violent video game, choosing a military-style assault rifle as one of his weapons.

New details about Adam Lanza emerged Friday, as the nation paused to mark one week since he slaughtered 20 first-graders and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown.

Multiple funerals and visitations were held Friday, and at the hour of the attack, 9:30 a.m., a bell tolled 26 times, once for each victim killed at the school.

Mr. Lanza also fatally shot his mother before blasting his way into Sandy Hook, and killed himself after the school massacre.

In high school, Mr. Lanza would slither through the hallways, awkwardly pressing himself against the wall while wearing the same green shirt and khaki pants every day. He hardly ever talked to his classmates.

“As long as I knew him, he never really spoke,” said Daniel Frost, who took a computer class with Mr. Lanza and remembered his skill with electronics. Mr. Lanza could take apart and reassemble a computer in a matter of minutes

He seemed to spend most of his time in the basement of the home he shared with his mother, who kept a collection of guns there, said Russell Ford, a friend of Nancy Lanza’s who had done chimney and pipe work on the house.

Ms. Lanza was often seen around town and regularly met friends at a local restaurant. But her 20-year-old son was seldom spotted around town, Mr. Ford and other townspeople said.

The basement of the Lanza home had a computer, flat-screen TV, couches and an elaborate setup for video games. Nancy Ms. kept her guns in what appeared to be a secure case in another part of the basement, said Mr. Ford, who often met her and other friends at a regular Tuesday gathering at My Place, a local restaurant.

During the past year and a half, Mr. Ford said, Ms. Lanza had told him that she planned to move out West and enroll Adam in a “school or a center.” The plan started unfolding after Adam turned 18.

“She knew she needed to be near him,” Mr. Ford said. “She was trying to do what was positive for him.”

Mr. Ford said Ms. Lanza didn't elaborate on what type of services she wanted her son to receive. He said she made fewer appearances at the restaurant in recent months.

Mark Tambascio, owner of My Place, said Ms. Lanza described the same plan to him, saying she might move to Washington State.

Back in high school, Mr. Frost recalled, someone brought in a video game called Counter-Strike, a shooting video game in which players compete against each other as either terrorists or counter-terrorists.

Mr. Lanza “seemed pretty interested in the game,”Mr. Frost said, and would play it with other students. He remembers the weapons Mr. Lanza chose: an M4 military-style assault rifle and a Glock handgun.

Authorities said Mr. Lanza used a military-style assault rifle and carried handguns during the rampage at the school. They still have no clear reason why he would lash out at defenseless first-graders and their caretakers.

State police spokesman Lieutenant J. Paul Vance said a final report on the investigation could be months away.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/new-details-emerge-about-school-shooter-adam-lanza/article...

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

Now every kid who is shy, keeps to himself and likes to tinker with technical things, will now be 'suspect' across the nation.

[survivornikki]

We lived in the US for 30 years, and only met 4 people who owned guns.  One worked at the Pentagon, one was a Korean War Veteran (from Florida), and 2 in New Jersey one I believe was connected (a huge wall safe of arms) and the other was a prosecutor.  However, I see the quoted statistics, and I don't doubt them, they just were not our experience.

I don't have any suggestions but it is all so utterly sad.  My 3 year old grandson showed up for his nursery school Christmas concert in a lovely old church and there was an armed guard.  Heartbreaking.

[puckstopshere]

only met 4 people who owned guns.

This article from the Globe shares the experiences of Canadians who went to live in the U.S. and their introduction to gun ownership:

The 'a ha' moment when Canadians come face to face with America's gun culture

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/expats-dispatches-the-a-ha-moment-when-canadians-came-face...

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

There is nothing scientific about this but it’s just my impression of the US and their love for guns.

-  First there was the ‘wild west’. Guns were a necessity for protection and a way of gathering food. The pioneers had to protect themselves from wild animals, outlaws and of course those natives who weren’t taking the theft of their land too lightly.

-  Next came just after the west was tamed and cities starting with Dodge and Tombstone made an ordinance that no guns were allowed in the cities because things were getting too out of hand.

-  With the exception of a few areas of the US the time between say 1900 to 1920 things quietened down a lot.

-  Then came the roaring 20’s and a new crop of gangsters that many people looked up to and emulated.

-  Then the guns and crime pretty much levelled out and things were fairly quiet until WW2. When the US finally got into the war after 3 years and they were a major part of defeating Germany, the soldiers returned, still interested in the power of the country and the power of guns. It became a whole new USA and the psyche change. However there was still morality amongst the population.

-  Then came Viet Nam ….things changed again. War and it’s violence became something to watch on the news during dinner.

-  Then came the continued fear of Communism and there was that little problem with Cuba and the people of the US felt they would be attacked because Pearl Harbour had happened so why couldn’t it happen again!

-  The gun manufacturers and the movies and TV took advantage of this fear. It made good money.

-  Since then the fear has not subsided and with the propaganda of the US government for political and greedy gain it has taken on a new face.

-  At the same time that all this was happening the movies (which are a reflection of society) changed and became increasingly violent with the new invention ….video games. Along with all this there was added anger from people about poverty and poor education. It’s much easier to sell drugs for instance and get easy money and all that comes with it, than go to school and university and get into debt and then try and find a job that may, after 10 or more years pay off.

-  Violence sells, it’s as simple as that. There is more money to be made with an assault rifle and all the toys that go with that, than with a peace sign.

That’s just my personal theory.