anyone else think US and other NAto countries should have just left well enough alone

[brandeentertainment]

I mean Crimea was part of Russia 1954 and earlier ... CRimea is made up of mostly Russians Today so for the most part They wanted to become part of russia again ...

I mean Looking at everything from Putins point of view they have not really broken any law as of yet (EVen though the Western Media and presidents and PM are all making it out to be that way it's not so cut and dry as they make it seem....

Sure maybe it was not the best move but it was a movie that most of Crimea wanted anyways .....

Honestly Putin is no saint and Russia is now yet a power house but Putin has done for Russia what no other leader have done for Canada or the US .. I mean Putin has turned Russia into a power house and although much of the cuontry is still very poor they have come a long way ...

I think Ukraine ever joining NATO is such  bad movie .. Ukraine nd Georgia have both been denied becoming part of NATO but have been told they will eventually be allowed in ... THAT IS A HORRIBLE MOVE .....

I mean now instead of Russia just helping the people of Crimea everything is getting Very messy now that NATO is involved and it getting worse then better thus far ..

I mean Russia and China are not all up in our lands and waters so why is US EVERYWHERE  right now like literally everywhere ...

I maybe one of the few who pay attention to this stuff but This all strikes me as just a power play by the US to once again let the world know they are in our backyards and not to be messed with no matter where you live in this world ...

[art-in-the-making]

Pierre, the PQ's "Charter of Values" proposal that died with Pauline Marois' defeat.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-values-charter-protest-hits-montreal-streets-1.1840089

Fortunately I don't think we ever got to see the final final version of what that discriminatory piece of work would have looked like but in a nutshell it certainly would have infringed on the rights of people to follow quite a few mundane and other religious practices and still have equal employment opportunities in Quebec.

The Charter supposedly had a fair amount of support in some spheres around Quebec but it arguably spelt the end for the PQ.

I certainly hope that the charter proposal alone would not have resulted in any deluded souls running off to join ISIS, Al Qaeda or what have you but it could have been a contributing factor.

Also, in regard to these so-called radicalized Canadians gone over, I'm guessing that a lot of them probably have no clue what they're getting into initially.

[valve37]

Listening to Art one gets the impression he believes we should just live and let live surrounded by terrorists. Like ISIS who exterminate by genocide, behead to instill fear and invoke Sharia law with all it's supression of women, etc. As far as his referrence to the Israeli Gaza campaign is concerned terrorist organization Hamas is and always has been attempting to achieve what the Nazis didn't, the complete extermination of Jews and the Jewish state. Fortunately Israel has had the means to defend itself and has done so through previous wars (1948–49, 1956, 1967, 1973–74, and 1982) with surrounding Arab Islamic countries.

[pierrelebel]

OK - The Charter in Quebec, proposed but never adopted by the previous provincial government.

You wrote: "To look at the problem from another angle - if there are x number of ISIS recruits going out - how many of these do you think are the result of  *policies like Quebec's ridiculous "charter" proposal

.

I am still trying to make a connection between the Quebec charter and ISIS recruitment.  I am open minded but just dont get it.

[valve37]

"I'm guessing that a lot of them probably have no clue what they're getting into initially." Wonder why they seem to gravitate to a certain religion?

[art-in-the-making]

I am still trying to make a connection between the Quebec charter and ISIS recruitment.  I am open minded but just dont get it.

I know you follow QC politics more than the average Ontarian, and I wouldn't think one would need to be open minded in the least to get the connection, but maybe you had to be here. The PQ were insistent they were going to pass this law, which for all intents and purposes targeted muslims.

Tensions were high. There was rhetoric flying around on a daily basis. Incidents of abuse and conflict were being reported. Phillip Couillard said the PQ would only pass the bill "over my dead body". Fortunately, he proved able to walk the walk.

With the QC government threatening legislation that was flat-out anti-Muslim, the atmosphere was ripe to possibly incite radicalization in some alienated kids, although I haven't heard anything about how many, if any, of these supposed Canadian ISIS recruits actually came from QC.

I think the young man in NB who killed the RCMP officers was a typical case study. It just happened this young man was a gun rights fanatic and his family were devout Christians, if they had been Muslims, who knows, ISIS may have had another recruit.

If it was the '70s maybe these kids would have drifted off to San Fran and joined some other cult.

valve, I wish I knew what to do about ISIS. Could their fuel be cut off? their weapons? food? ammunition? If they are grass roots, it's not going to be easy. If they're mostly mercenaries, misfits and fanatics, maybe a bit easier?

The best thing I can think of is a super sophisticated public relations campaign to sway opinion against them. If you could cut off their sources of new recruits and supporters, the organization would wither away.

[valve37]

A third beheading today. A British aid worker taken prisoner in Syria last October. US needs to go after ISIS command and control located in Syria, Obama is considering. ISIS controls an air base in Syria, oil fields and refinery in Iraq and sell oil on the black market, they control Iraqs 2nd largest city as well as many others. Well equiped and capitalized. They make Al Qaeda look like boy scouts. Radical Islam at it's worst.

[art-in-the-making]

What I've been trying to figure out, and haven't gotten much to go on, is to what extent these guys are the same ones that the Syrians have been fighting with all along.

All of a sudden we aren't hearing anything about the Syrian civil war and gov't atrocities any more. Ever since about the time ISIS took over Mosul and robbed the bank there of $500 million in cash. Does this mean Russia was actually right about Syria holding out support for the regime there even while all the other countries were piling on against them?

[pierrelebel]

"With the QC government threatening legislation that was flat-out anti-Muslim, "

???

Reading press reports from Quebec last Spring, the Montreal Jewish community felt they were targeted by the government policy.

Why some see the "Charter" as only anti-Muslim, I will never understand.  It was much broader than that: it was anti minority and had nothing to do with recruiting terrorists locally.

[art-in-the-making]

Why some see the "Charter" as only anti-Muslim, I will never understand.  It was much broader than that: it was anti minority and had nothing to do with recruiting terrorists locally.

Never? 🙂 I will try (although no one ever said it was only anti-Muslim):

The public reaction has included at least one public incident where a Quebec woman of Algerian origin wearing an Islamic veil was accosted in Laurier Quebec shopping centre in Quebec City by a woman citing the charter who demanded they change their religion and remove the headscarf. Another incident occurred when a white male harassed a hijab-wearing woman on a bus in Montreal.

Yes, the Charter provisions concerned all religions, including non-minorities. There was even a fiasco concerning a boy being prevented (unrelated to the charter but...) from playing soccer because he wore a turban.

But if the numbers were tallied, there's little doubt that Muslims would have made up 9 or more out of 10 of the people significantly affected by the charter.

As far as recruiting is concerned, something like this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back for pushing someone in a fragile mental state over the edge. What could be more depressing than learning that the supposedly enlightened country that your family chose to live in - is determined to empower the bigotry towards your religion that you feel every day?

[pierrelebel]

"As far as recruiting is concerned, something like this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back for pushing someone in a fragile mental state over the edge."

I am truly sorry you think like that.  It is not reflected in facts.

Take a look at those Canadian born and raised "terrorists".  How many of them come from Quebec?

Look again....

Canadians who decide to convert and eventually join an overseas terrorist organization have not done so because a political party in Quebec (with a minority government) proposed some idiotic law.  Their motives may vary but the proposed Quebec legislation (never had a chance to become law) was not one of them.

[art-in-the-making]

in fact I did say that I have no idea if any of the so-called Canadian recruits were from QC - that isn't the point  - the point is the Charter discussion seriously poisoned the atmosphere at the time - and it just seems so obvious that this could have been a factor in radicalizing or even just planting seeds, I don't understand why you disagree?

[art-in-the-making]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/11/opinion/weine-isis-recruitment/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

An article about efforts in the US to attempt to prevent radicalization. They call it "countering violent extremism," or CVE.

[pierrelebel]

"and it just seems so obvious that this could have been a factor in radicalizing '

It is a simple matter of difference of opinion.

You see a link between the proposed Quebec Charter and recruitment of Muslim terrorists in Canada, I don't.

There is nothing you could wrote to make me see a link and there is nothing I could write to make you see there is none.

End of story.

[art-in-the-making]

Difference of opinion is a good explanation. We don't have anything else to go on anyway. What do you see as the reasons why these people become candidates to be "radicalized"?

Could be more factors added to the list. For one thing it's a numbers game. Out of 35 million people there is bound to be someone to pursue most every avenue of lifestyle. Another factor is the media coverage of mass murders, terrorist activities and police actions. Appealing to the grandiose inclined. I am also afraid that war gaming, films etc. could be a factor.

Social media obviously the biggest staging ground. The sad reality now is that vast areas of social media, much more than ever, have taken on an anti-Israel tone, what with children repeatedly mutilated in UN schools in Gaza and such. So ISIS internet propagandists certainly wouldn't have to look far to find sympathetic audiences for their presentation. And then the question to what extent there are proactive mentors here on the ground?

[valve37]

Along with your factors Art I suppose it's not politicaly correct to say so but religious leanings notably Islam appears to playing a large part. The names reported add to suspician. Three from London and a fourth being sought. "That leader was either a religious leader from the underground mosque network in Canada, or pretended to be, Juneau-Katsuya said, adding that leader has to have connections with others. "This guy is somewhere connected to an international network, because the moment they decided to leave the country and go to Algeria, somebody had to take care of them. "The young Londoners must have received training as well, either in Canada or in Africa, he said." http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/04/20130403-171654.html

[rafael.xavier]

Who shot down MH17 ?

A point of interest: anonymous german recruited investigators and offered $30M for information of who shot down MH17.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/09/17/malaysia-airlines-mh17-ukraine-reward-30m/157780...

My guess is: 20% chance it was Rusia or separatists, 30% Ukraine army, 50% CIA or someone acting under Washington orders including Russian or Ukrainian nationals. 30M is a lot fo money, especially in that region, somebody is going to sleep very poorly tonight.

[rafael.xavier]

Canada has commited $200M load to Ukraine. Ukraine has a history of refusing paying it's debts. Most of the loan money will end up in oligarchs accounts.

Mr. Harper is preparing free trade agreement with Ukraine and simplified visa procedures. Say hello to Ukrainian labourers and enjoy inexpensive Ukrainian products. Average wage in Ukraine is currently lowest in Europe, about half of average wage in China.

[dealintruth]

I do believe America does stick their nose where it doesn't belong, but I also add that the rest of the international community does little when rights and liberties are denied to people and unlawful practices take place in regions around the world. Is it any wonder the USA spends more on defense than almost the rest of the world combined when the rest of the world refuses to get involved.

As for Putin, invading a country is not the solution. If Crimea wanted to be part of Russia then they should have followed the proper political challenges to secede from the Ukraine. There are many places around the world that have not been happy with the allegiances that their government chooses to make, and that has usually resulted in a civil war not interference from another sovereign nation. The WEST should mind their own business when it comes to spreading democracy, because we haven't got it right either. 

We have so many different forms of democracy with mixed results to say the least. We still have many different ideas as to what democracy is and when tying in capitalistic values we are far from perfect. The greatest democracies in the world still have internal issues as to race and social reform as to how to best proceed in a positive economic way. I say when we have got our own countries on a straight and narrow path, then contribute our self righteous values on others.