On a previous thread you stated that you would like specific examples of how the new system is impacting the selling community. As requested, I posted the following real-life scenario.
It has been a week and I'm still waiting for some response...or at least the courtesy of an acknowledgment that you have read and understood the problems.
For your convenience I have bolded the questions involved with the following scenario for which I would appreciate an answer.
whoscloset 05-06-08 14:25 EDT 39 of 70
Miriam,
I'm not as disturbed by the feedback issues as others. Compared to Best Match it is a minor inconvenience.
Best Match is set up in such a way to completely favor scammers which in no way improves the buyer experience. A fraudulent seller simply has to develop a user id with questionable feedback via small purchases, then they can begin to sell and find themselves advantaged in Best Match.
Sellers with YEARS of proven reliability can easily find themselves at the bottom of search because of a low shipping DSR in the past 30 days. eBay has set it up to completely disregard years of reliable selling.
When Best Match was first implemented I was thrilled with it. It was based solely upon the listings that had attracted customers and sold with positive results in the past. It actually favored reliable sellers who had proven themselves through sales over the years. Then eBay introduced DSRs into the equation and it all went to h*ll in a hand-basket.
Prime example:
Item 310051440288
I have been selling salt lamps for years. This seller has been getting away with fee avoidance for just as long. I can GUARANTEE you that regardless of how many you buy or how they are shipped you CAN NOT get a 5 pound, finished salt lamp from Pakistan (where they are ALL mined) to North America for 99 cents each. Have a look at his shipping charge...$131.02 via USPS ground within the United States. It is obvious that this person is making his profit ENTIRELY off shipping charges and avoiding ebay fees.
He sells the same items under multiple id's with different pricing structures and shipping charges set up for each id. None of his id's has been as successful or rated FB as positive as mine over the years. When regular search and the original Best Match were in place my items rose to the top above all of this as buyers had been much more satisfied over the years with my honest sales practices and quality products. Since the implementation of DSR's into the equation ALL of his listings are ahead of mine. Why? Because I have a 4.5 shipping charge DSR for the past 30 days despite the fact that I subsidize shipping and offer 60% off the actual cost of UPS Ground service to my customers.
eBay is effectively shoving his listings, which have historically not resulted in a great deal of satisfaction down the throats of buyers, while my items...which have been received very well over the years languish on page 10 of search.
Please explain how this is a positive experience for
a) eBay, who are losing FVFs due to fee avoidance,
b) Buyers, to whom ebay is promoting products sold by people with a less than stellar history of product and customer service, or
c) Decent Sellers with years of proven FB and customer satisfaction who are now selling very little.
It has been a week and I'm still waiting for some response...or at least the courtesy of an acknowledgment that you have read and understood the problems.
For your convenience I have bolded the questions involved with the following scenario for which I would appreciate an answer.
whoscloset 05-06-08 14:25 EDT 39 of 70
Miriam,
I'm not as disturbed by the feedback issues as others. Compared to Best Match it is a minor inconvenience.
Best Match is set up in such a way to completely favor scammers which in no way improves the buyer experience. A fraudulent seller simply has to develop a user id with questionable feedback via small purchases, then they can begin to sell and find themselves advantaged in Best Match.
Sellers with YEARS of proven reliability can easily find themselves at the bottom of search because of a low shipping DSR in the past 30 days. eBay has set it up to completely disregard years of reliable selling.
When Best Match was first implemented I was thrilled with it. It was based solely upon the listings that had attracted customers and sold with positive results in the past. It actually favored reliable sellers who had proven themselves through sales over the years. Then eBay introduced DSRs into the equation and it all went to h*ll in a hand-basket.
Prime example:
Item 310051440288
I have been selling salt lamps for years. This seller has been getting away with fee avoidance for just as long. I can GUARANTEE you that regardless of how many you buy or how they are shipped you CAN NOT get a 5 pound, finished salt lamp from Pakistan (where they are ALL mined) to North America for 99 cents each. Have a look at his shipping charge...$131.02 via USPS ground within the United States. It is obvious that this person is making his profit ENTIRELY off shipping charges and avoiding ebay fees.
He sells the same items under multiple id's with different pricing structures and shipping charges set up for each id. None of his id's has been as successful or rated FB as positive as mine over the years. When regular search and the original Best Match were in place my items rose to the top above all of this as buyers had been much more satisfied over the years with my honest sales practices and quality products. Since the implementation of DSR's into the equation ALL of his listings are ahead of mine. Why? Because I have a 4.5 shipping charge DSR for the past 30 days despite the fact that I subsidize shipping and offer 60% off the actual cost of UPS Ground service to my customers.
eBay is effectively shoving his listings, which have historically not resulted in a great deal of satisfaction down the throats of buyers, while my items...which have been received very well over the years languish on page 10 of search.
Please explain how this is a positive experience for
a) eBay, who are losing FVFs due to fee avoidance,
b) Buyers, to whom ebay is promoting products sold by people with a less than stellar history of product and customer service, or
c) Decent Sellers with years of proven FB and customer satisfaction who are now selling very little.
And in my opinion, do not bother with the Canadians. They are very nice people personally but as far as eBay goes and getting information or passing information to anyone that can do something, they're completely & utterly useless. It's not their fault, that's just the way it is. San Jose makes the decisions and too bad for the rest of us. Sucks to be you is, I believe, the expression.
You are absolutely right about this. It is why Jordon Banks left us. He tried to make changes to level the playing field for Canadian sellers. Remember the flat rate gallery fee? Remember the days when we could list on .com during a Canadian listing sale? ebay.com slapped him on the wrist, reversed his progress and made him a puppet. Leaving was the only thing an intelligent, self-respecting executive could do.
When I called Marion to task for spouting the party line it was not because I feel ANY animosity toward the .ca employees. I KNOW they have zero ability to fix this mess. What bothers me is that they come on to the boards and insult us with the .com party line. I tend to think that the Canadian employees are better people than that and that they should have a little more respect for our intelligence.
Tell me you can't do a damn thing about it...but don't try to sell me on the idea that these changes are for my benefit. It's just insulting.
You are absolutely right about this. It is why Jordon Banks left us. He tried to make changes to level the playing field for Canadian sellers. Remember the flat rate gallery fee? Remember the days when we could list on .com during a Canadian listing sale? ebay.com slapped him on the wrist, reversed his progress and made him a puppet. Leaving was the only thing an intelligent, self-respecting executive could do.
When I called Marion to task for spouting the party line it was not because I feel ANY animosity toward the .ca employees. I KNOW they have zero ability to fix this mess. What bothers me is that they come on to the boards and insult us with the .com party line. I tend to think that the Canadian employees are better people than that and that they should have a little more respect for our intelligence.
Tell me you can't do a damn thing about it...but don't try to sell me on the idea that these changes are for my benefit. It's just insulting.
I think you're missing out on a key resource if you discount the Canadian team wholesale.
I do not discount the Canadian team wholesale at all. I discount the ability of the .ca team to do ANYTHING to change what is wrong with ebay. In addition, I don't appreciate you trying to convince me that the changes made recently are for my benefit.
I have also encouraged many posters with problems on this board to contact .ca support rather than .com. I have found that the few things that they CAN do something about they handle quite well. Much better than .com support.
I used to have long telephone conversations with Jordon about ebay and while we didn't always agree...he didn't insult me by trying to convince me that all was rosy and right. The man would ACKNOWLEDGE that there were issues and that he didn't agree with everything being shoved down our throats.
Being at ebay Live this year must have opened your eyes to the extent of the current dissension within the selling community. Failing to acknowledge and address it...whether you can DO anything about it or not...harms your credibility.
My comments to you are not meant to be personal Miriam. We are a frustrated group and would like some respect and acknowledgment of the negative impact of the new policies. Your paycheque has not been affected by these actions...our livelihood and the welfare of our families HAS!
I do not discount the Canadian team wholesale at all. I discount the ability of the .ca team to do ANYTHING to change what is wrong with ebay. In addition, I don't appreciate you trying to convince me that the changes made recently are for my benefit.
I have also encouraged many posters with problems on this board to contact .ca support rather than .com. I have found that the few things that they CAN do something about they handle quite well. Much better than .com support.
I used to have long telephone conversations with Jordon about ebay and while we didn't always agree...he didn't insult me by trying to convince me that all was rosy and right. The man would ACKNOWLEDGE that there were issues and that he didn't agree with everything being shoved down our throats.
Being at ebay Live this year must have opened your eyes to the extent of the current dissension within the selling community. Failing to acknowledge and address it...whether you can DO anything about it or not...harms your credibility.
My comments to you are not meant to be personal Miriam. We are a frustrated group and would like some respect and acknowledgment of the negative impact of the new policies. Your paycheque has not been affected by these actions...our livelihood and the welfare of our families HAS!
Miriam,
How many ebay employees do you know personally who HAVE EVER BEEN ebay PowerSellers? The day one of them speaks up and tells me that the direction this company is taking is the best scenario perhaps I will be able to have an educated debate about it.
There is a huge report running around all the boards about Lorrie Norrington prattling on during one Live session about her one and only experience with an International sale on ebay. She even had the audacity to state that she had never listed items with an international shipping option but when requested to ship to France she said "Why not?"
Can you possibly comprehend how ridiculous it is to us that people who have zero idea about the realities of listing and selling on this site are chastising us for our sales policies and poo-poohing our concerns?
I look forward to your .ca counterpart who HAS been a PowerSeller and knows what they are talking about coming on this board to address us and our concerns.
How many ebay employees do you know personally who HAVE EVER BEEN ebay PowerSellers? The day one of them speaks up and tells me that the direction this company is taking is the best scenario perhaps I will be able to have an educated debate about it.
There is a huge report running around all the boards about Lorrie Norrington prattling on during one Live session about her one and only experience with an International sale on ebay. She even had the audacity to state that she had never listed items with an international shipping option but when requested to ship to France she said "Why not?"
Can you possibly comprehend how ridiculous it is to us that people who have zero idea about the realities of listing and selling on this site are chastising us for our sales policies and poo-poohing our concerns?
I look forward to your .ca counterpart who HAS been a PowerSeller and knows what they are talking about coming on this board to address us and our concerns.
Miriam,
I prefer to have this conversation publicly rather than in private. I am trying to be very respectful in this debate and I feel that everyone on this board has an "iron in the fire" so to speak. As such, they deserve the chance to participate in this exchange.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that the majority of the feedback you and your co-workers have garnered is through purchases...not sales. This is in no way an insult...I am trying to point out that ebay has systematically failed, over the years, to employ people who fully understand their business.
During our conversations, Jordon would often cite the research numbers to explain the moves that ebay was making. As I explained to him many times, the problem does not lie in the fact that ebay is not doing extensive research in an effort to improve the systems. The problem lies in the WAY they pose the questions to their poll subjects and the WAY they interpret the answers they receive.
I do not believe that the employees, such as yourself, who are believing in the recent changes are naive, uneducated or company hacks. I do believe, from what I have garnered in the past, that you have been sold the idea that these changes are required by people who have misinterpreted the data available and have used said data to convince everyone under them of the "rightness" of their decisions. The most dangerous thing one can do with data is to make rash decisions based upon isolated numbers without fully researching and understanding the factors, both tangible and intangible that may have influenced the numbers. The failure to run the numbers past the very people who are operating on this platform daily to get their educated feedback on the data results is deplorable.
A perfect example of ebay's inability to adequately analyze their data can be found in the failure of their decision in January 2007 to raise listing fees and bury store items in order to "protect" the "quality" and "continued growth" of their "core" auction format. At that time I posted the following to a Piper Jaffray article on the moves...
The auction market was at its peak 2 years ago. There are only so many "collectors" of antique and novelty items out there and they have already tapped into ebay. I believe that, while the antique auction market will continue as it has, it has reached it's peak. This is evidenced by the lower list/sales and bids/item ratios. eBay has tried to hang on by their finger-nails to the format that launched on-line sales (auctions) and milked it beyond it's potential. That is one freakin dry cow. A seller of antique items would probably concede that you are getting less traffic and sales than you were 2 years ago. Just too many competitors in the second-hand/collector market. Any growth you may have realized can probably be directly attributed to your own SEO and promotion efforts.
New item sales are the only potential for substantial future on-line sales growth and auctions just don't work well for new items. Well, hell...everyone who has taken entry level economics knows the demand/supply graph and it's pitfalls. Auctions have reached the saturation point. The supply curve made a sharp jump to the right...everybody and their brother is trying to sell on ebay. As a result, prices and sales per listing have dropped substantially. eBay has these figures right in front of them. They go on about the lower list/sales and bids/item ratios as an excuse to raise listing fees. Huh? For some unfathomable reason, supposedly intelligent business people have made the fatal jump of erroneously ASSUMING cause and effect.
Did the Ivy League educated brass at eBay recognize this fundamental shift in purchasing patterns? Did they take advantage of the new opportunity in on-line retail purchasing? Nope. Instead, they tried to force-feed their antiquated view of the on-line market. They have raised fees over and over in order to prop up their growth for their investors and the stock market...but that could only work for so long. They have reached the point where front-end listing fees are too high to make it a viable format for most items. It was a false growth and now it's reached it's zenith and is on the down-turn.
If eBay had gone back to business basics and read the signs they would have realized the potential and managed the store format properly. This is a corporation that had the potential to become THE major on-line shopping mall.....the world's largest collection of stores. They had the name recognition, membership, resources and expertise to become the leader in on-line retail. The whole Express idea could have made them a fortune. How? By charging low front-end fees and higher FVF's on store listings and providing increased exposure for these listings. I don't care if ebay takes 10% of my gross sales if I've priced items with a 40% profit margin. Unfortunately, I'm not going to list them in my ebay store at all if they are going to charge exorbitant up-front listing fees, and provide little market exposure.
Due to the mismanagement of the store format, experienced sellers are opening their off-ebay sites in droves. They have come to realize that growth lies in another direction entirely. Purchase a fantastic shopping cart for a few hundred, find a reliable host for a minimal monthly charge and invest in SEO and Google adwords. You can drive a lot more traffic to your items while substantially reducing your costs.
It is such an old story really. Ten years from now, business schools will be using eBay as a case study in what NOT to do. How did so many supposedly intelligent, well educated business people fall into the basic Business 101 trap of failing to adapt to the marketplace?
Do I find it amusing that 1.5 years after I posted this the executive at ebay has come to the same conclusion and lowered listing fees, made gallery free and taken steps to make the site much more new item/fixed price friendly? Mildly. The emotion I feel more is frustration that they didn't see the writing on the wall back then.
Now they are making larger, and significantly more detrimental mistakes, with their new policies surrounding Best Match and Feedback. When a brand new seller gets higher placement in Best Match than a seasoned, proven PSer with 10 years of 99% feedback...you have some serious, serious problems. I say this as someone who has already figured out how to manipulate Best Match to my advantage. I'm at the top of most searches for my items...yet I fully understand that, due to the short-sighted actions of ebay, a scammer can achieve the same results under a brand new id. If eBay was trying to make the marketplace safer for buyers they have not only failed miserably...they have disillusioned their business partners and made the marketplace much more subject to fraud on the side of both buyers AND sellers.
I hope for all our sakes that they wake up to the error of their ways much quicker than the 17 months it took last time.
For your reference, I DO know what I'm talking about here...
* I have a BBA in Management Science from one of the top-ranked business schools in the world (same one as Jordon Banks actually).
* I have an extensive background in retail marketing and systems working in management for Canadian Tire head office, Canada's largest retailer.
* I have been a successful PowerSeller on ebay for 5 years.
Should ebay.ca be interested in hiring a consultant who actually KNOWS the ebay business, in addition to aN extensive education in interpreting statistical data CORRECTLY in a business environment, I'd be happy to consider any offers.
I prefer to have this conversation publicly rather than in private. I am trying to be very respectful in this debate and I feel that everyone on this board has an "iron in the fire" so to speak. As such, they deserve the chance to participate in this exchange.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that the majority of the feedback you and your co-workers have garnered is through purchases...not sales. This is in no way an insult...I am trying to point out that ebay has systematically failed, over the years, to employ people who fully understand their business.
During our conversations, Jordon would often cite the research numbers to explain the moves that ebay was making. As I explained to him many times, the problem does not lie in the fact that ebay is not doing extensive research in an effort to improve the systems. The problem lies in the WAY they pose the questions to their poll subjects and the WAY they interpret the answers they receive.
I do not believe that the employees, such as yourself, who are believing in the recent changes are naive, uneducated or company hacks. I do believe, from what I have garnered in the past, that you have been sold the idea that these changes are required by people who have misinterpreted the data available and have used said data to convince everyone under them of the "rightness" of their decisions. The most dangerous thing one can do with data is to make rash decisions based upon isolated numbers without fully researching and understanding the factors, both tangible and intangible that may have influenced the numbers. The failure to run the numbers past the very people who are operating on this platform daily to get their educated feedback on the data results is deplorable.
A perfect example of ebay's inability to adequately analyze their data can be found in the failure of their decision in January 2007 to raise listing fees and bury store items in order to "protect" the "quality" and "continued growth" of their "core" auction format. At that time I posted the following to a Piper Jaffray article on the moves...
The auction market was at its peak 2 years ago. There are only so many "collectors" of antique and novelty items out there and they have already tapped into ebay. I believe that, while the antique auction market will continue as it has, it has reached it's peak. This is evidenced by the lower list/sales and bids/item ratios. eBay has tried to hang on by their finger-nails to the format that launched on-line sales (auctions) and milked it beyond it's potential. That is one freakin dry cow. A seller of antique items would probably concede that you are getting less traffic and sales than you were 2 years ago. Just too many competitors in the second-hand/collector market. Any growth you may have realized can probably be directly attributed to your own SEO and promotion efforts.
New item sales are the only potential for substantial future on-line sales growth and auctions just don't work well for new items. Well, hell...everyone who has taken entry level economics knows the demand/supply graph and it's pitfalls. Auctions have reached the saturation point. The supply curve made a sharp jump to the right...everybody and their brother is trying to sell on ebay. As a result, prices and sales per listing have dropped substantially. eBay has these figures right in front of them. They go on about the lower list/sales and bids/item ratios as an excuse to raise listing fees. Huh? For some unfathomable reason, supposedly intelligent business people have made the fatal jump of erroneously ASSUMING cause and effect.
Did the Ivy League educated brass at eBay recognize this fundamental shift in purchasing patterns? Did they take advantage of the new opportunity in on-line retail purchasing? Nope. Instead, they tried to force-feed their antiquated view of the on-line market. They have raised fees over and over in order to prop up their growth for their investors and the stock market...but that could only work for so long. They have reached the point where front-end listing fees are too high to make it a viable format for most items. It was a false growth and now it's reached it's zenith and is on the down-turn.
If eBay had gone back to business basics and read the signs they would have realized the potential and managed the store format properly. This is a corporation that had the potential to become THE major on-line shopping mall.....the world's largest collection of stores. They had the name recognition, membership, resources and expertise to become the leader in on-line retail. The whole Express idea could have made them a fortune. How? By charging low front-end fees and higher FVF's on store listings and providing increased exposure for these listings. I don't care if ebay takes 10% of my gross sales if I've priced items with a 40% profit margin. Unfortunately, I'm not going to list them in my ebay store at all if they are going to charge exorbitant up-front listing fees, and provide little market exposure.
Due to the mismanagement of the store format, experienced sellers are opening their off-ebay sites in droves. They have come to realize that growth lies in another direction entirely. Purchase a fantastic shopping cart for a few hundred, find a reliable host for a minimal monthly charge and invest in SEO and Google adwords. You can drive a lot more traffic to your items while substantially reducing your costs.
It is such an old story really. Ten years from now, business schools will be using eBay as a case study in what NOT to do. How did so many supposedly intelligent, well educated business people fall into the basic Business 101 trap of failing to adapt to the marketplace?
Do I find it amusing that 1.5 years after I posted this the executive at ebay has come to the same conclusion and lowered listing fees, made gallery free and taken steps to make the site much more new item/fixed price friendly? Mildly. The emotion I feel more is frustration that they didn't see the writing on the wall back then.
Now they are making larger, and significantly more detrimental mistakes, with their new policies surrounding Best Match and Feedback. When a brand new seller gets higher placement in Best Match than a seasoned, proven PSer with 10 years of 99% feedback...you have some serious, serious problems. I say this as someone who has already figured out how to manipulate Best Match to my advantage. I'm at the top of most searches for my items...yet I fully understand that, due to the short-sighted actions of ebay, a scammer can achieve the same results under a brand new id. If eBay was trying to make the marketplace safer for buyers they have not only failed miserably...they have disillusioned their business partners and made the marketplace much more subject to fraud on the side of both buyers AND sellers.
I hope for all our sakes that they wake up to the error of their ways much quicker than the 17 months it took last time.
For your reference, I DO know what I'm talking about here...
* I have a BBA in Management Science from one of the top-ranked business schools in the world (same one as Jordon Banks actually).
* I have an extensive background in retail marketing and systems working in management for Canadian Tire head office, Canada's largest retailer.
* I have been a successful PowerSeller on ebay for 5 years.
Should ebay.ca be interested in hiring a consultant who actually KNOWS the ebay business, in addition to aN extensive education in interpreting statistical data CORRECTLY in a business environment, I'd be happy to consider any offers.
