NPB scam

[itrecovery]

I've just got example of how to avoid non-payer strike. Check this out:

I sold an item to somebody, no reply nothing for a week. Ok, I filed NPD dispute. Couple days later I'm getting Paypal payment on item; thank you very much, I'm closing dispute. Right after dispute has been closed, buyer filing "not as descried" chargeback.

I refunded him, as I don't want to del with scam bags, but as dispute closed, I can not file again to give him strike.

I file fraud report with PowerSeller support.

PowerSeller support responce:

"Please remember that eBay is a venue where buyers and sellers come to meet and trade. Thus we are not actually involved in any of the private transactions between our members. Think of us as a newspaper or Buy and Sell that has classified listings of items from members. If a buyer encounters a problem with an item they had purchased through the newspaper, they don't go to the newspaper company to have the issue resolved, they go to the person or company that had sold them the item."

Good job pinks! But, let me tell you ... I better not.

[itrecovery]

Sorry for typos.

[betterthanstore]

Sorry to hear that, unfortunatelly that's how ebay and paypal works!

[aokgems]

Bloody Hell - 'tis the story of my life (well, not really, but those are the transactions you end up remembering though).

Chargebacks, and the insidious paypal dispute --- arg, now I'm going to vent (let me pre-apologize):

WHY DOES A USER NEED TO BUY POSTAL INSURANCE or ADHERE TO RULES AND LAWS OF COMMERCE when there is such a handy tool for defrauding sellers? The Paypal Dispute is a perfect tool for breaching contract (and it is just that). After all, the user isn't really taking money from you, he's asking paypal to 'act on his/her behalf' - his hands remain clean (think he's the Don, Paypal his henchman). Our listings used to state something along the lines of: 'those that don't insure take full liability for items lost or damaged in transit'. That said, we are covered legally BUT paypal disputes are 100% automatic with absolutely no human intervention. Despite what ppal phone support will tell you (if you have 2 hours to wait on hold to speak to them) the disputes are automatic and if people are looking at them before confirming (the fraud) they are blind & to boot.

If there was even an iota of care from paypal, these things would be greatly minimized as the process itself is not inherently flawed (it's paypals 'hands off' attitude). It's just so aggravating that a user with -1 feedback who will often openly admit their guilty-mind can use this 'tool of protection' to bilk a seller with 99.9% feedback and 4000+ happy clients!

I do realize the 'bad users' are in the minority, however, it's not really them my frustration is with (they are and will always be part of the world), it's the companies we sellers pay that are allowing (I'd argue almost encouraging) their resources to be used to defraud us!

Arg - to be at the whim of the monopoly...

[cartoonsinabox]

Aokgems,

You are 100% right. And we keep getting screwed by PAYPAL.... No service , all charges and BUYER protection ONLY to screw sellers. (And have to use there services if using Ebay).

[marcopoloca]

We are at the mercy of the buyers. and Paypal is absolutely the worst credit card company i ever deal with! Bascically they are saying everytime "that's how we operate, take it or leave it" on the phone (rude and arrogant) and keep sending you form reply just to frustrate you more. P.O.S.

[llee2]

Hmmm,

If your buyer charged you with "item not as descibed", he is obligated to show proof of returning the item before Paypal will refund him. Since he did the chargeback before you actually delivered it, you shouldn't have refunded him just yet. Make him waste money to send you a parcel of nothing first. Just a thought...

Lincoln

[aokgems]

llee2:
Buyer has to show proof of ...?
Is that in theory or in practice. My experience with disputes, chargebacks of all kinds etc. has been that the buyers burden is 100% met by (drum-roll please) JUST FILING the !@%$ dispute.
I've had chargebacks after I sent items, had people tell me on the phone (and I record 90% of phone-calls when I feel a dispute is likely) that they 'did it by accident and will promptly repay' and then never repay. They never had to show a return or anything for that matter (and I had them saying on email and recorded phone that they DID recieve the item, DID do a chargeback illegally, DID feel they owed me the money)

Once upon a time when I was convinced what the paypal phone support was telling me is true (they promised me that REAL LIFE HUMANS check on EACH DISPUTE prior to it maturing) I forwarded 11+ pages of emails and other related proof, including copies of postal reciepts and internal packing documents to paypal. I DID IT VIA FAX (with all the long distance $ that came with!) directly to the disputes department. Not only did the dispute go to the customer (As always), these REAL LIVE people from paypal never called, emailed or otherwise (smoke signal?) acknowledged the booklet of evidence we had sent their way.

Main problem is that like many users stated: WE SELLERS MUST USE PAYPAL TO STAY AFLOAT?
Why? Because Ebay (aka same corp as Paypal) has convinced the masses that using ANY OTHER PAYMENT METHOD is a sure fire way to ensure you get defrauded, your house burned down, a terrible case of crabs, anarchy in the world, drought in Africa, and contributing to Global warming...

OK - now done venting... Indoor voice.

Ben

[itrecovery]

I haven't won a single duspute in last 4 years. Seller protection is a joke (or Paypal's marketing fraud).

[llee2]

Ben,

That's not theory, it's what Paypal does. Don't get me wrong...Paypal seller protection is a joke, no arguements here. I've been screwed over by Paypal many times despite their so-called Seller Protection.

When a buyer disputes a charge with Paypal using the reason of "item not received", then unless you have online proof of delivery to a confirmed address you will lose. However, in itrecovery's situation, the buyer used "item not as described" indicating he has received the item. Paypal requires the buyer to show proof of merchandise return (ie. online trackable info indicating return of merchandise) before they will award him the funds.

Lincoln

[betterthanstore]

Online proof of delivery sometimes is not enough, on the paypal user agreement, it actually says signature required. And I know some PS were forced to refund even they have online proof (In US, they have Delivery confirmation, but that's not good enough for paypal if they decided to side with the buyer)

[marcopoloca]

As a buyer, I purchased a pocket watch from the US last year, the seller did a bait and switch; paypal wants me to proof that i will return the item at my cost ($15) before they'll consider doing any chargeback. The watch was $40 and i incurred about the same amount of money from Canada custom (they somehow decided it's worth more) so i didn't bother.

As a seller, i had a chargeback because paypal deemed the credit card was used fradulently by other people even though i had proof of delivery (fedex); their response after numerous long distance call and wait time was absolutely nil. They don't allow any other further communications once you submitted the proof and their decision was final.
I called and called and they said i should be patient as the case was still open (without my knowledge but it said closed on the site) and hung up 😞