Return Policies

[shoplineca]

I have had 2 Buyers wanting to return instruments they purchased as gifts over Christma because they were not exactly what they person receiving the gift wanted.

My UNWRITTEN policy is to refuse the return and my reasons are many. First, I consider a musical instrument (which I mostly sell) to be used once shipped, opened and tested and therefore I am unable to re-sell it as new. So why should I be out of pocket potentially a couple of hundred dollars because someone changes their mind or it doesnt look like they thought it would look once they got it home?

Aside from my own reasons, I notice that many other PSers dont post a return policy in their listings unless they accept the return of items.

I havent posted a return policy (or in my case a NO return policy) as I feel I have enough in my terms and conditions that protects me to not add any more and by not posting one, it should not be assumed that there is a return policy, rather assumed that there isnt.

At the same time, there have been instances where I have taken something back at my expense. This is something that is entirely discretionary and that is the way I prefer it to be.

I have no problem telling anyone who emails me in advance of purchasing what my policy is in the event of damage, or a manufacturing problem nor telling them that there are no other reasons I would take back their item.

How about others who do not post your policy in your listings, is there any positive reason or benefit to posting a no return policy in your listing?

Malcolm

[ospreylinks]

I do post a return policy Malcolm, and honestly in the five years I have been here, I have only had two returns. We are explicit in that the goods cannot be used and must be returned in brand new condition and once returned, we do not consider them as used, but remain as new and are resold as new..... (it is just that they have seen a bit of the country between sales).

If they have been used in the interium, then we do not accept them as returns.


Jeff

[shoplineca]

My latest one was someone who bought a keyboard in late November for his g/f for Christmas. On January 2nd he left me positive FB stating that delivery was fast, service was good and the item was exactly as described.

Then he emails me January 3rd and tells me that his g/f wanted a keyboard that she could plug foot pedals into and she wanted it to produce some other sound effects so he would like to ship iot back and get a 100% refund.

There is alot of time between November and Christmas and another 9 days between Christmas and when he emailed me so I must assume that the keyboard has been played a fair amount, if not from November 29th onwards, certainly in the 9 days following his giving it as a Christmas gift.

Is it damaged because it has been opened and tested? I dont really care as I am not going to have a technician inspect everything that could be returned under an open-ended return policy.

Many instruments logically cant be returned due to health issues such as anything people put their mouths onto (brass and woodwinds) however the general condition of any instrument that has been played several times changes.

The strings on stringed instruments stretch, guitars can show signs of pick scratches or discoloration of frets, keyboards can be exposed to moisture or dust affecting the internal electronics as well as keys becoming discoloured due to oily, dirty or tobacco stained fingers.

At the same time I have bent the rules which are not as yet set in stone on ocassion and my concern would be including such a term into my policy and loosing the ability to accept discretionary returns because of posting that policy in my listings.

Music stores have floor models to test. When someone decides they want an instrument, a new one is pulled from inventory. Most music stores allow exchanges for upgrades to new instruments by allowing the buyer to pay the difference plus the return of his recently purchased item.

The cost of the floor models and return policy is generally built into the higher price of the item in the store over purchasing on eBay. However many people today expect to get eBay deals with better than in-store service, warranties and return policies.

I also feel that adding something else to my policy does little until after the problems arise when you shove your printed policy in the face of the already unhappy customer. Few if any read the terms which are more for our protection than the customer's protection.

Its good to get everyone's view on this however as I may just be out of sorts having received 2 customer demands along the same line in a row.

Malcolm

[sunward-hobbies]

Malcom,

I understand your position. But if used, even played once, they didn't give all the money back.

Then you would be able to sell it as a demo unit.

As for units that you won't take back, such as wind, make sure it is the description.

Angelo

[shoplineca]

Angelo
I prefer not to deal with 2nd hand instruments. Also, it is not worth my selling something used in competition with myself and at the same time I am selling the same item new.

The other problem is that I enjoy a relatively good profit margin as I purchase directly from manufacturers with only a marginal cost to the buyer that I deal with.

If I offered even a 50% refund, I wouldnt be able to sell the item for enough to make a profit after all my expenses so it is not worth the time or effort or aggrevation to me simnply to alow some customers the luxury of changing their mind about their purchase.

Angelo, your listings and your ABout Me page dont indicate what your return policy is. Was that a decision to leave it off so that you can make a decision on a one to one basis, such as I do?

Malcolm

[sunward-hobbies]

I am not going to argue with someone over a 20.00 item. If they want to return it, then why argue.

On the other hand, I was selling audio equipment as is. Said very clearly at the top of the description. The most I would do is plug in the equipment and see if the lights come on and the buttons work.

Didn't accept returns on them.

Angelo

[shoplineca]

I have very few items that I sell for less than $100 USD. In fact I only had 2 items that I was selling over Christmas less than $100 USD as promotions and I didnt get any request from anyone to accept the return of those because people didnt like them or the colour didnt match their cat's eyes or whatever other reason people change their mind.

When someone wants to return something I am selling as new for $150 USD that retails in stores for over $400 for no other reason than a change in mind about it, I have a very difficult time accepting the return.

I think that the eBay market is changing however. With the push into opening eBay stores and more attractive listing fees using a Buy it Now over an auction with a reserve, people are expecting to get unbelievable deals with the guarantees and warrantees and all the other goodies that you might expect at a department store.

I suppose that we dont help ourselves either in how we present and market ourselves.

A Buyer has little way of determining if the Seller is a corporate giant, a small Mom and Pop retail store, or someone working out of their kitchen or basement.

They expect the same from everyone selling on eBay as they might get outside of the e-commerce world and at times they are going to be disapointed, through no direct fault of the Buyer or the Seller.

With respect to returns, I first examine and determine if there was anything that I did to mislead anyone in my listing or in answering any inquiries.

So far the two recent people wanting to return items have both openly admitted in their emails that they made no inquiries before buying and really didnt know what they were looking for. They both said in emails that 'they made a mistake'.

In those cases, I am very content in rejecting any though of accepting the return. They made the mistake so why should I be expected to pay for their mistake?

None of these people would turn into repeat customers so I am not loosing any future opportunities with them nor am I concerned about them talking to their relatives or friends. Its a big, big e-commerce world out there and if their friends are anything like them, I would sooner not have the opportunity to do business with them either.

I have enjoyed receiving several more positive FBs since dealing with these two coupled with some very lovely emails from customers who appreciated the service and the product I have delivered to them.

As the old saying goes, you cant please everyone all of the time! ... and I sure as heck believe that rule to be 100% true on eBay.

Malcolm

[ospreylinks]

Malcolm, we offer a return policy not to gain repeat customers, but to entice new customers....

In my opinion, if someone sees that a return policy exists, it may build a comfort level and they may be more inclined to bid or buy, and that is why we put it in place. Has it generated sales that I would not have received had it not been included in our listings? Don't know, never polled to find out if it has an effect or not, but I would like to think that it has.

In our line, if someone buys a golf club and they receive it and don't like it, providing it is not marked upon return and they advise in an expedient manner, we will offer them their money back.

We do not refund until the goods are in our possession and we can verify that they are intact and re-saleable. In the case of a keyboard, I really don't understand if the customer returns it to you in the original packaging and it is not marked and upon return you plug it in and it works, why you cannot resell.

Again, we do this not to build repeat customers, heck if someone returns something it is highly unlikely they will buy from us in the future, but to entice new customers who may be leary from buying from an unknown source.


Jeff

[shoplineca]

Jeff
Good Point about enticing new buyers to purchase.

If I look at my most recent request to accept a keyboard return, they have had possession for a month. I dont know how the item was handled or stored but with electronics there is always a fear of moisture or dust/dirt getting inside which may only be detected the next time I ship it out.

I have read other posts on the US Board from people that sell electronics as it being a difficult market due to so many variables that can have a non visible effect on the performance of what has been sold. Most guaranty that the item will not be DOA (Dead On Arrival) and that is it.

Also, with keyboards, they are packed in their original box with heavy kraft taped over it. I have seen what the boxes look like after they have been repacked for shipping and you would NEVER sell a keyboard in that same box that has made 2 trips across the country or across 2 countries.

Other items that had been returned, the people end up forgetting to send a power cord or other item such as the manual.

My personal experience in the few I have accepted have not returned something that I would ever try to pawn off as brand new as the condition of either the item or the packaging has been diminished to a point that I would never accept as new if I were the Buyer.

Malcolm

[ospreylinks]

I realize that Malcolm and they are good points. As I also don't want to accept returns ever..... but in attempting to make as many people as possible feel comfortable buying from me over the miles without any form of personal contact, I try to set them at ease by offering a return option. Again, I don't want them to return goods, but the offer exists. In my situation, the cost of accepting a possible return is offset by my percieved increase in buyers because of a such a return policy.

From time to time, I have trade-ins that we end up selling on Ebay. I never want to see these items back and since they are already used, it would be impossible to detect if the wear came from the original owner or the Ebay buyer, so on these goods, we state no warranty or return offered.

Again, I only make a refund for the return if the goods are in resaleable condition (read new). I am the sole judge of this and no refund is made until the goods are in my hands, they are all intact and accounted for. It is also sometime costly for the person making the return to freight the goods back (at their cost) and sometimes although I have had inquiries, once they calculate the actual cost of getting their money back, they just don't bother.

In the case of your goods, I can see the point, but if you could sell 10 more keyboards as a result of offering a return policy, but had to take one back (netting nine additional sales) wouldn't it be worth it? (and then you could sell off the returned unit at a discount to cover your wholesale and still end up ahead of the game -I am just pulling these numbers out of the sky)

Again, our return policy is not intended to cost us money, but it is to generate sales....

Jeff

[recped]

Jeff

Execellent points. I had a similar "discussion" with my partner over one of our policies relating to exchange rates on direct credit card payments from outside of Canada.

We offer on our packing slips to adjust any credit card charge where the exchange rates cause the buyer to be charged more than the final US$ price. My partner felt it was not our problem and wanted to remove the policy. I had a tough time explaining to him that since in 4 years the policy had cost us a total of less than one dollar he shouldn't get so worked up. The main reason for the policy is to avoid complaints like "the price was 12.50 but you charged my credit card $12.61".

There are numerous policies you can put in place that will make the buyer feel more comfortable with little or no actual cost. In my bricks and mortar days I had a hard time convincing my counter staff that a "thank you" to every customer cost nothing and could pay off big time. They seemed to think that since the sale had been made they could be as indifferent as they liked with no harm done. Of course they didn't seem to notice the customers muttering on the way out the door...."nice stuff in there too bad they don't appreciate my business...."

Ben

[ospreylinks]

Although not written, I have a similar policy with call in credit card payments.

Believe it or not, many are confused when I tell them that being in Canada and since we deal with a Canadian bank, we will be converting their sale to Cdn$ equivilent to process on our terminal, however when they get their credit card bill, it will be reconverted back to US$ and they will probably not notice the difference other than the charge could be either a few cents more or less the actual charge (given flucuations and differences in exchange rates).

I also tell them that if in their opinion the difference is major to contact me and we will reimburse any unacceptable difference. To date I have never had anyone call me back.

Jeff

[recped]

Believe it or not, many are confused when I tell them that being in Canada and since we deal with a Canadian bank, we will be converting their sale to Cdn$

Oh I believe it....I used to put this currency conversion comment right in my listings but took it out very early on as I could tell it only caused confusion. The info now goes on the packing list / invoice with the shipment along with he credit card reciept.

Regarding the original topic, return policies, I think it depends on the type and value of products you sell how important it is to specify a policy in your listings.

Ben

[shoplineca]

I am really no further ahead than when I started this post.

Jeff raised some excellent points where the return policy is used more as a marketing tool than a warranty.

Personal experience however, from requests and the nature of the musical instrument business would suggest a much higher rate of return than the 1 or 2 Osprey has done and I would honestly expect a return rate approaching 5-7%. That is way too high to manage.

The way that I am doing it presently (where I choose at my discretion to acce[t a return) gives me a return rate of 1% and so far 2 negs over the last 2+ years for not having an open-ended return policy.

The negs are a high price but you cant please everyone all of the time and I am in this business for profit and not for eBay FB (at least that is what I keep telling myself).

I think Ben summed it up when he said " I think it depends on the type and value of products you sell how important it is to specify a policy in your listings."

I am still working on it! Again I dont believe that there is a right way or a wrong way, it is relative to whether I can improve my sales AND PROFITS by listing a return policy and adhering to it or continuing as I do presently.

Malcolm

[recped]

Malcom

I think in your situation you already have the best policy...help out the people who deserve it and let the rest whistle dixie.

In the example that started this thread I think you are right to refuse the return or enforce a substantial penalty.

Ben

[shoplineca]

Thanks Ben for the support.

I have taken a few items back for reasons that fall outside of warranties but when it is at my discretion it is easier to accept the cost in doing it.

I think when I first started selling on eBay, I made a judgement call with my 4th sale where I was positive the people were lying about the condition of my merchandise and believed that they simply bought something somewhere else and wanted to return the one I sold them.

I took a chance and called their bluff and sure enough I was right. Ever since then I have preferred the method of being skeptical first and accepting second.

As far as increasing my sales with a sales policy, if that increase in sales decreased my profit such that I was only moving product, I am not interested in it.

I have seen some Sellers post a rerturn policy that simply asks the people to email their problems or concers to the seller before leaving any FB.

I dont think that I even want to suggest that there exists any discretionary policy upon reflection as I may upset someone I refised to accept their return who takes that policy to eBay or PayPal and suggests that I do accept returns on a discretionary basis.

Malcolm

[shoplineca]

I meant to say "As far as increasing my sales with a RETURN olicy ..."

Malcolm

[ospreylinks]

As far as increasing my sales with a sales policy, if that increase in sales decreased my profit such that I was only moving product, I am not interested in it.

Who would be.... as stated earlier, we post a return policy but have only had to deal with two returns in five years. Doesn't seem to be much of a problem for us while you inidcate that you have 2 requested returns just from the Christmas season.

So maybe it is not the policy, but the product mix. As you stated, probably best for you not to post a return policy and then just handle it on an as it arises basis.

Cheers.

Jeff

[shoplineca]

Thanks for your input Jeff.

I think that different items, and different selling prices dictate whether one should offer a return policy.

I am aware in this industry of several music stores that post "No Returns" and print it onto the slaes invoice/receipt at time of purchase.

So I guess I shall remain felxible without publishing it.

Malcolm

[ospreylinks]

Music stores post no returns because of the prevelence of copying. If they allowed returns, their return rate would be staggering.

Jeff