Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

Canada Post is now returning craft booklets and paper sewing patterns that are sent letter mail saying that have to go package rate. For sellers selling low cost craft items, having to charge or pay for package rate now makes them far too expensive. Has anyone else had them returned? I am going to phone CP and see if I can see what is going on.

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

marnotom!
Community Member
Are these returned mailings domestic or international mail?
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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

33nhl
Community Member

Some one  else in a sport cards hockey group on Facebook mentioned this that they have received back about 10 packages in the past week as for some reason iether Canada Post or USPS is not accepting them. the person stated they were sending them out as regular mail and the bubble mailers would fit through iether of the 2 slots Canada Post uses one being regular mail the other oversized, but now they are being told has to be sent as parcel thus no buyer will buy a $5.00 item and then pay 3 times its worth for it to be sent as a parcel. Hopefully more info can be provided by Ebay on this subject as its going to affect many sellers, as the problem is on both sides of the boarder even from the USA they cant send regular mail has to be sent as a parcel.  

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

Technically Canada Post is within its rights.

Domestically we can send pretty well anything by lettermail, but for international destinations, including the USA, its documents only.

 

Is there any indication of how far the items get before being returned?

If Canada Post decides there is postage due they have a sticky label that covers the address. Not sure what USPS uses but I don't think the return would be that far away.

 

Another thought.

@triber @33nhl   What is the location of the seller getting these returns?  If they are both, say, in the London ON area, it may be a single manager deciding to enforce the rules.

And we always obey the rules, don't we, kids?

 

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

This is an interesting development that could impact thousands of sellers.  Ironically, i think it will cost the postal services money, not line their pockets, as they expect.   Since few sellers will be able to afford to switch to pakcage rates for their low cost items it wil mean they don't send them at all.  So instead of CP or USPS making $1 or whatever the letter rate is they will make 0.  Times hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of items per year, that will impact the bottom line.

 

I wonder if it's the type of packaging that is the tip off that is causing CP/USPS to return the items.  I would think any bubble envelope sent at letter mail rates would get returned as the contents could clearly be considered as a package.  Were the sewing books/patterns sent in regular envelopes or bubble envelopes?  Maybe the hockey card person should switch to regular envelopes instead of bubble.

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

 

 

 


@fergua3 wrote:

This is an interesting development that could impact thousands of sellers.  Ironically, i think it will cost the postal services money, not line their pockets, as they expect.   Since few sellers will be able to afford to switch to pakcage rates for their low cost items it wil mean they don't send them at all.  So instead of CP or USPS making $1 or whatever the letter rate is they will make 0.  Times hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of items per year, that will impact the bottom line.

 

I wonder if it's the type of packaging that is the tip off that is causing CP/USPS to return the items.  I would think any bubble envelope sent at letter mail rates would get returned as the contents could clearly be considered as a package.  Were the sewing books/patterns sent in regular envelopes or bubble envelopes?  Maybe the hockey card person should switch to regular envelopes instead of bubble.



For Canadian sellers it really isn't helping to compete with the US sellers who have access to cheapie tracked for their sports cards etc.

 

-Lotz

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

Where were these items going?  Was there  a VAT number on the envelope or a customs form attached?

 

There was a recent post about this.  
https://community.ebay.ca/t5/Seller-Central/Returned-item-needs-more-postage-need-some-advice-please...

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

I wonder how they knew that they were merchandise?

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail


@triber wrote:

Canada Post is now returning craft booklets and paper sewing patterns that are sent letter mail saying that have to go package rate. For sellers selling low cost craft items, having to charge or pay for package rate now makes them far too expensive. Has anyone else had them returned? I am going to phone CP and see if I can see what is going on.


If these were US or Overseas and had a customs declaration that revealed that the contents was not "documents only" but rather merchandise then this policy has been in effect for a decade or more.

 

Sellers get around it by not applying a customs form and dropping in the red box rather than over-the-counter.

 

If these are being shipped within Canada then it's Canada Post error as anything that fits the size/weight specifications can be sent. Contact Canada Post or your local postmaster if you have access to a "real" post office.

 

The entire world is moving to a system of pre-clearence and pre-notification for cross-border merchandise, the postal carriers don't want that stuff mixed up in the true lettermail systems.

 

 



"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915
- answering Trolls is voluntary, my policy is not to participate.
Message 9 of 189
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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

Not domestic, to the US.

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

They were sent back by Canada Post.

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail


@femmefan1946 wrote:

Technically Canada Post is within its rights.

Domestically we can send pretty well anything by lettermail, but for international destinations, including the USA, its documents only.

 

Is there any indication of how far the items get before being returned?

If Canada Post decides there is postage due they have a sticky label that covers the address. Not sure what USPS uses but I don't think the return would be that far away.

 

Another thought.

@triber @33nhl   What is the location of the seller getting these returns?  If they are both, say, in the London ON area, it may be a single manager deciding to enforce the rules.

And we always obey the rules, don't we, kids?

 


I am pretty sure they didn't get out of Canada, took over 2 weeks to get back though, I am expecting a lot more in the next few days. Yes, there is a sticky label over the address. Talking to another buyer with the same problem, we both live in Ontario.

 

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

  I have no bias on this.  I understand many of you rely on CP Lettermail and Letterpost. We all see the posts in support of lettermail; " I don't have any problems", " I self insure against loss", "My loss rate is only ****%. " My feedback rating isn't affected,"  "I couldn't stay in business without Lettermail", etc.  I would feel that way too. I think most sellers have a good mix of lettermail, small packet, expedited parcel and tracked packet to keep things balanced. Just in case... 

 

   I haven't used lettermail for a lot of reasons. Some are my items are too bulky, I need insurance, they are one offs, I sell in riskier cats so I need proof of delivery and, most go to international buyers. I've been tempted to use it for low value items like backstage passes or some ticket stubs. I think you have to decide if you're prepared, based on what and where you sell to to risk certain items. 

 

  Other posters make a good point. The risk is much lower if the item is domestic.  If you ship to the USA you might find interest in what these retired USPS postal workers add to what happens to your stuff if sent to the USA. I hadn't considered the mechanical journey lettermail endures. It doesn have to be the object in your envelope that causes your loss. It can be an object in someone elses envelope that damages yours. All shipping is gambling. You have to decide if you're OK with a potential loss. My feeling is it's OK if the item value is less than the cost to ship it tracked/insured. ($15) I personally don't see enough profit from that type of item unless they are multiples from a single listing. 

 

   BUYER'S PERSPECTIVE: As a buyer I purchased a $6usd post card from NY and a $15usd magazine from Calli.  Landed they cost me $78cad. I'm fine with that because the postcard is autographed and it connects to the magazine's  featured article. These in turn form provenance for a collection I already have. Seperately they are worth $6 and $15. Together, with my other items I may see real value. Each is travelling thousands of miles. Knowing what I now know about mechanical processing of lettermail I wouldn't have placed either order if the seller used that method for these two pieces of music memorabilia. 

   

1. " Former Advanced Facer/Canceller Operator at U.S. Postal Service (1993-1994)
Answered: Can you mail items other than paper in a business envelope?


  Business envelopes go through mail processing equipment at 35,000 pieces per hour. This is so fast the stream of mail looks like a blur. The mail is bent first one way and then the other and squeezed between rollers in fractions of a second. This is necessary to prevent the machines from being 1000 feet long instead of 100 feet. Imagine an envelope filled with packets of liquid or loose change. Anything but paper should always be mailed in a padded envelope. That way, it goes to parcel sorting equipment automatically. I have found keys, coins, booklets. pistol cartridges, glass, and various small toys inside of those machines."

Retired from USPS at U.S. Postal Service (1982-2007)
  


2. Worked at U.S. Postal Service (1987-2020) ·
Originally Answered: Can you mail items other than paper in a business envelope?
Objects in letter envelopes too often cause them to jam in the machines and then they are destroyed. Objects can also tear their way out of envelopes. I ran those machines and we would find coins, jewelry and other small things inside the machines at the end of the day. Then they are separated from their address and will not be delivered. Since the machines move mail by using pairs of rollers to keep them moving, the rollers will crush a lot of small things. A typical envelope may pass between a hundred pairs of rollers on its way to the destination."

 

 

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

byto253
Community Member

Does this include your cross stitch patterns?  That should be lettermail, it is a paper document, even height, etc.  A sewing pattern is paper as well and should pass through processing no problem.  Do you put anything like a piece of bristol board with the patterns on each side to provide a smooth package for processing.  It seems pretty extreme if these are getting turfed back.   

 

Almost sounds like a zealot at the other end or something.    Do you always drop them off at the same place? 

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail


@intimewithmusic wrote:

  I have no bias on this.  I understand many of you rely on CP Lettermail and Letterpost. We all see the posts in support of lettermail; " I don't have any problems", " I self insure against loss", "My loss rate is only ****%. " My feedback rating isn't affected,"  "I couldn't stay in business without Lettermail", etc.  I would feel that way too. I think most sellers have a good mix of lettermail, small packet, expedited parcel and tracked packet to keep things balanced. Just in case... 

 

   I haven't used lettermail for a lot of reasons. Some are my items are too bulky, I need insurance, they are one offs, I sell in riskier cats so I need proof of delivery and, most go to international buyers. I've been tempted to use it for low value items like backstage passes or some ticket stubs. I think you have to decide if you're prepared, based on what and where you sell to to risk certain items. 

 

  Other posters make a good point. The risk is much lower if the item is domestic.  If you ship to the USA you might find interest in what these retired USPS postal workers add to what happens to your stuff if sent to the USA. I hadn't considered the mechanical journey lettermail endures. It doesn have to be the object in your envelope that causes your loss. It can be an object in someone elses envelope that damages yours. All shipping is gambling. You have to decide if you're OK with a potential loss. My feeling is it's OK if the item value is less than the cost to ship it tracked/insured. ($15) I personally don't see enough profit from that type of item unless they are multiples from a single listing. 

 

   BUYER'S PERSPECTIVE: As a buyer I purchased a $6usd post card from NY and a $15usd magazine from Calli.  Landed they cost me $78cad. I'm fine with that because the postcard is autographed and it connects to the magazine's  featured article. These in turn form provenance for a collection I already have. Seperately they are worth $6 and $15. Together, with my other items I may see real value. Each is travelling thousands of miles. Knowing what I now know about mechanical processing of lettermail I wouldn't have placed either order if the seller used that method for these two pieces of music memorabilia. 

   

1. " Former Advanced Facer/Canceller Operator at U.S. Postal Service (1993-1994)
Answered: Can you mail items other than paper in a business envelope?


  Business envelopes go through mail processing equipment at 35,000 pieces per hour. This is so fast the stream of mail looks like a blur. The mail is bent first one way and then the other and squeezed between rollers in fractions of a second. This is necessary to prevent the machines from being 1000 feet long instead of 100 feet. Imagine an envelope filled with packets of liquid or loose change. Anything but paper should always be mailed in a padded envelope. That way, it goes to parcel sorting equipment automatically. I have found keys, coins, booklets. pistol cartridges, glass, and various small toys inside of those machines."

Retired from USPS at U.S. Postal Service (1982-2007)
  


2. Worked at U.S. Postal Service (1987-2020) ·
Originally Answered: Can you mail items other than paper in a business envelope?
Objects in letter envelopes too often cause them to jam in the machines and then they are destroyed. Objects can also tear their way out of envelopes. I ran those machines and we would find coins, jewelry and other small things inside the machines at the end of the day. Then they are separated from their address and will not be delivered. Since the machines move mail by using pairs of rollers to keep them moving, the rollers will crush a lot of small things. A typical envelope may pass between a hundred pairs of rollers on its way to the destination."

 

 


Another thing the postal systems have never been fans of are staples and paperclips. It's a piece of information that is covered in their help pages but often not considered by anyone scanning through. They have been known to get caught in sorting machines and even in some cases injuring employees.

 

-Lotz

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

this problem is very real and is something new.

 

I just received a piece of lettermail back that i sent  Feb 1st.  It contained a poster.  The poster folds flat and is not rolled and fits easily into a 10 x 13 envelope. When folded flat it is the thickness of 3 pieces of paper.  I have been selling them for over 14 years.  All shipped by lettermail and have never had a problem one single time in the over 2000 posters i've sent.

 

Until now.   I put a piece of cardboard in the envelope, to protect the poster.  And i suspect it is that cardboard that caused the envelope to be rejected.

 

To be clear i used a plain brown 10 x 13 inch envelope with no Customs sticker on it and no barcode information. It was sent like a normal letter.

 

So if this is the way it's going to be my days of selling posters are over.   I make less than $10 profit per poster.  Switching to parcel rates will mean i  make about $2 or so.  Not worth it. 

 

I really counted on these posters to suplement my meager pension.  Going to miss the income for sure.

 

 

 

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

are these items being sent as under 50 g letter mail or are they oversize letter mail categories (which go up  to 500 g)?

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

Wow, that is nuts.  A paper poster should be totally legit, along with the protection.  If you bring that to a counter, show them and they say it is ok, and have the stamps cancelled there I wonder if that would protect from being sent back.   It seems that this is swinging into crazy land.   

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

They are oversize, mostly 100-200g.

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Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail


@fergua3 wrote:

this problem is very real and is something new.

 

I just received a piece of lettermail back that i sent  Feb 1st.  It contained a poster.  The poster folds flat and is not rolled and fits easily into a 10 x 13 envelope. When folded flat it is the thickness of 3 pieces of paper.  I have been selling them for over 14 years.  All shipped by lettermail and have never had a problem one single time in the over 2000 posters i've sent.

 

Until now.   I put a piece of cardboard in the envelope, to protect the poster.  And i suspect it is that cardboard that caused the envelope to be rejected.

 

To be clear i used a plain brown 10 x 13 inch envelope with no Customs sticker on it and no barcode information. It was sent like a normal letter.

 

So if this is the way it's going to be my days of selling posters are over.   I make less than $10 profit per poster.  Switching to parcel rates will mean i  make about $2 or so.  Not worth it. 

 

I really counted on these posters to suplement my meager pension.  Going to miss the income for sure.

 

 

 


I recently ordered some plastic coin holder sheets from a local seller. They were dropped off on the Monday and arrived today.(Tuesday) Package was large kraft envelop and approx 1 cm thick. Was mailed with 6 permanent stamps and 1 x 48 cent stamp. No issues. 2 more packages to follow. Stay tuned. (w/o Cardboard)

 

Taking no chances, last Monday mailed a thin cookbook that would have fit as being under the 2 cm limit but sent expedited from Calgary to Edmonton. Parcel in Edm but not out yet for delivery. Parcel sent at same time to just outside of Mtl was  delivered yesterday(5 business days). All you can do right now is drop in box and hope for the best.

 

-Lotz

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