Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

(CNN) -- Melissa Earll owns stacks of classic comic books, baseball cards that include a young Hank Aaron and Whitey Ford and other collectibles she wants to sell.


But she can't do so on eBay, she says. According to Earll, the popular auction site can't confirm her as a seller because she's deaf.


"eBay keeps me from taking advantage of opportunities that other people have and it's because I couldn't hear," Earll, of Nevada, Missouri, told CNN affiliate WDAF-TV. "Somebody has to have the courage to stand up and say 'this is not righ...


At issue, according to Earll, is the way the auction site verifies sellers. eBay says it offered Earll alternative ways of verifying her identity. But the dispute casts a light on a bigger question that some experts say may need to go all the way to the Supreme Court: Just how responsive must the Internet be to the Americans With Disabilities Act?


The Internet has long been seen as an equalizer, granting everyone the same access to information regardless of cultural background or economic status. But for some users with disabilities, it's not so simple.


"The ADA was signed in 1990. The Internet didn't really start going until the 1990s," said William D. Goren, a Decatur, Georgia, attorney who specializes in cases involving the federal law. "This is a topic we're going to have to be watching. This is not going away."


In Earll's case, she says she can't use eBay's verification system, which requires sellers to retrieve and submit a password from a telephone call. She can't hear the password and says eBay doesn't use voice-to-text or other technologies deaf people often rely upon.


"They said, can your mom or dad answer the phone for you," said Earll, who lip-reads and speaks with the assistance of a hearing aid. "And I said, I'm a 47-year-old adult woman. No. I don't live at home. No."


A federal judge didn't agree with her argument, though.


U.S. District Judge Edward Davila dismissed her complaint after finding it lacked enough facts. Specifically, he said Earll didn't prove that she tried to register as a seller after talking to eBay about a possible solution.


"eBay is pleased with the court's decision to dismiss the case," company spokeswoman Kari Ramirez said in a written statement. "eBay strives to provide all users with the best customer experiences possible, including those with special access needs. eBay will continue to stand ready to assist those who are deaf or hard of hearing become eBay sellers."


Earll is appealing that ruling.


Little legal agreement


eBay is the most high-profile website to be involved in a disabilities discrimination case since Netflix, which last year agreed to caption all of its online ...


The move, which the National Association for the Deaf called "a model for the streaming video industry," came after... judge in Massachusetts ruled in the plaintiffs' favor, saying any new laws regarding the Internet s...


"The Disability Rights Education & Defense Fund," which handled the case, "hopes that this is the beginning of opening the Internet for deaf and hard-of-hearing individuals in streamed entertainment, education, government benefits, and more," the group said at the time.


Arguments for both sides in those and other cases point out something of a problem: There seems to be no agreement on how disability issues on the Web should be handled.


Goren, the disability law attorney, said judges have ruled both ways in those cases, and that even those who agreed cited different laws in doing so.


Some have stuck close to the original wording of the ADA, which requires that places of business be physically accessible to people with disabilities. Websites that represent brick-and-mortar stores need to comply, courts have ruled, while Web-only businesses do not.


Other courts have opined that ADA regulations should obviously be extended to Web companies, since the widespread popularity of Web commerce didn't exist when the law was written. It all makes for a confusing jumble of opinions that legal experts say needs to be clarified.


Congress hasn't been much help, either. Even when they made some changes to the original ADA language in 2008, they failed to address online concerns.


To the Supreme Court?


That, Goren says, means the Supreme Court will ultimately need to settle the issue once and for all.


"This is going to go all the way to the top," he said. "There are so many different approaches. You're going to see the courts split. Unless Congress steps in and talks about how the ADA applies to the Internet, the court's going to have to figure it out."


Eric Goldman, a professor of law at Santa Clara University and director of the school's High Tech La...


"We might debate the merits of those laws, many of which were written for a different time, but that's for the legislatures to do, not the courts," he said. " As a result, the lawsuits against websites for discriminating against the disabled are not legally meritorious. In this case, the courts bent over backwards -- more than they should have, in my opinion -- to give Ms. Earll a chance to make a valid legal complaint. She couldn't."


That said, Goldman thinks websites should voluntarily be doing more.


"In this case, for example, it seems reasonable that eBay should have a workaround to their authentication system that works for the hearing-impaired," he said. "They may have a workaround -- the materials I've read in this case haven't been clear about that -- but the workaround should be easy enough that Ms. Earll never needed to go to court.


"Some websites may not have the resources to provide full accommodations for the disabled, but a site like eBay does -- and it should do so," he added.


eBay notes that in her complaint, Earll said company agents told her about alternative methods, including submitting proof of identity and SMS text messages, that she and other hearing-impaired people could use to become sellers.


"eBay offers solutions to help the visually and hearing impaired, individuals with color vision deficiencies, as well as those with limited dexterity access eBay's services," said Ramirez, the eBay spokeswoman. On its website, eBay has a page devoted to accessibility issues, including a profie of Rick Willison, a pastor who became a successful seller despite a degenerative eye disea...


For her part, Earll says she's willing to go all the way to the Supreme Court if that's what it takes for her to use the auction site as a seller just as easily as she's used it as a shopper.


"You know what's funny -- eBay loved me as a buyer," she said. "Oh, sure ... because they made money off of me."


 


http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/10/tech/web/ebay-internet-disabilities/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Message 1 of 16
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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

Ah....a momentary pleasure to have a tread with a different 'content'.


I do feel for the woman but even though she doesn't live 'at home'....she must have friends, or acquaintances. Are there no groups for her disability in her area that can help her? Seems strange.





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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

Deaf people have the option of using TDD's in Canada and TTY's in the USA to communicate on the telephone.  Which are teletype device to view conversations live with small delay. Another option is human relay operator - this also has delays in conversations but still can be done. These devices are also available for people with speech difficulties. The complainant would have a TTY available to make this complaint to a lawyer or a person would have had to gone with her. As you can see, she in fact does have the capability to communicate. As the American way sue first ask questions later.


People have to realize that their personal problems or limitations are not necessarily for the courts. Be glad you are alive and deal with the hand you are dealt.   P.S. I am deaf not by birth or illness by accident.

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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

bilge21
Community Member

This thread I have to reply to...



First off, I am deaf (I must lipread and while I know sign language, I rarely use it) myself from birth so I understand quite a bit of what she is going through. And I do not agree with her complaint nor her decision to sue.



When I started my seller account, I also had to go through the verification process, which includes having to wait for that phone call with the password. I knew the call was coming so made sure my daughter, who is hearing BTW, answered the phone for me. She got the password and I was able to complete the process easily.



There is absolutely NO reason this woman could not have done the same. There is no reason why she could not have registered with a hearing friend or family's phone number. If she really wanted to be able to sell on eBay, then she would have done what she had to do in order to become a seller. There was no need to sue, especially given that eBay has given her options, which she apparently rejected.



This became a limitation because she let it become one. In this day and age, there is technology out there that allows the deaf and blind to live close to as normal life a life as possible. Relay operators with TDD/TTY services, SMS on cell phones, Closed Captioning on your TV, subtitles on DVDs and BluRays, and so on. In fact, the Television Decoder Circuitry Act of 1990 required Closed captioning tuners to be built in all TVs sold in the U.S. market, which eventually carried up here in Canada.



However, technology has taken a BIG step backward. When HDMI was invented for high definition, Closed Captioning wasn't a part of the design. In compensation, many companies instituted SDH captioning on thier BluRays and DVDS. SDH just wasn't as good a Closed captioning is.



Another step backward is that many people when to VoIP phones for cost considerations etc. TDD/TTYs do not work on VoiP technology, the deaf must pay full price for a phone service using the old copper wire technology as it's not simply to make the TTY work with VoIP.



Now we come to the biggest problem for the deaf and hearing impaired and the internet.... Videos.



There are tons and tons of videos on the internet, and it's very rare that any of them have subtitles or captioning. YouTube has come up with a beta Closed captioning option, but 80% of the time it's useless as it doesn't get it right. Next time you view a YouTube video and it has closed captioning, check it out and you will see just how much is missed or doesn't make sense. Nowadays, many people no longer subscribe to satelitte or cable TV, they stream movies or TV shows via sites like Netflix, Hulu, or download shows to watch. It's very rare that those sites off anything like subtitles or anything else that would make it easier for the deaf and hearing-impaired to watch thier shows, especially if it's something like Survivor, of which I am a big fan of. Yep, I can watch it on TV with Closed captioning but a big part of Survivor are the Ponderosa videos which are shown on CBS' website and are NOT subtitled. Not only that, but Canadians cannot view those videos due to country restrictions but that is a whole different story. The fact is, online videos really need something to make them work for the deaf groups. Even cable companies that have online access such as On Demand services so you could watch your favorite show or movie on your laptop or smartphone are lacking.



Hopefully, efforts are stepped up even more to make the internet more accessable to the deaf. Until then, one has to maker do with what they got and find ways around thier limitations in order to get to thier goals. So when one person decides not to find a way that works and decides to start a lawsuit because she could not be flexible enough or inventive to achieve her goal of becoming an eBay seller and decides it's gotta be her way or the lawsuit way, I have no respect for her. Internet technology WILL catch up, but starting a lawsuit to get what you want is not a way to go IMHO when there are options she could have used, including a company that gave her several options to help her.



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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

She just wants her 15 minutes of fame !

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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

Anonymous
Not applicable

Really??!!  I am deaf and don't have a phone at home and I am NOT going to get a phone line for that purpose.  I use Internet to communicate with anyone and eBay cannot contact me by phone because I don't have a phone at home.


 


Secondly why should she or anyone like myself have to rely on someone to answer the phone when eBay calls "for me"???  I would prefer to answer their questioins not having someone to answer for me which they can screw it up for me.  It is not that I don't trust someone to do that for me but I felt it is our rights that anyone must talk to me directly not having someone else to talk "for me". 


 


By doing that you are removing our rights an dignity that way.  eBay or anyone must learn how to find ways to get hold of us, not need to have to call by phone.


 


I was dong all-day shopping yesterday and I got pissed off when I was about to pay for 3 boxes of light bulbs and I was handing them my Aeroplan card to get points and the cashier asked for my phone number.  I replied, "do you plan to call me?"  She stammered and said it was required to ask for my phone number.  I told her, sorry I don't have a phone, a phone line, only Internet, email address, don't you want my email address?   She insisted a phone number and I gave her 555-555-5555. 


 


It seems to me that hearing (non-deaf) world is SO OSBESSED with phone number and requiring a phone number for many things which is insane.  They must have other options like email address or whatever.  It doesn't has to be a mandatory to have a phone number.


 


With Internet I can call IP (Internet Phone) Relay Service to call anyone but the hearing (non-deaf) people cannot use IP to call us.  That is a technology for the deaf people.   And no for your information, I don't have a TDD or TTY as they are getting to be obslete and not worth having, it just sit there gathering dust and waste of lots of $$$ paying for a phone line when an Internet is sufficient enough as we can use Internet for many things than a phone line can do.   With a new technology which is IP or VP (Video Phone) connected to Internet, we start not to need to have a phone anymore, saving lots of $$$.


 


The hearing world needs to STOP making things too complicated and needs to accommodate us which is not that hard but no they are making it way too hard and frustrating.


 


It is the hearing world that making our lives hell with refusing to understand or not willing to accommodate us, so I am all for this deaf lady to fight to make it possible and I pray that she wins!!


 


As for you not being deaf, put yourself as being a deaf person and think what it is like to be deaf and start to rely on someone to "do for" you and see how you like it.   You can start watching TV without sounds and see if you can understand anything (don't turn captions on because not everything is included closed-captinoing on TV and Videos). 


 


Ask your family members to answer the phone and translate the messages to you.  I bet that they would talk long but give you a very little message which is always happening to many of us for years and years.  Also when they laughed at something and you ask them what is so funny? and they will say "Oh it is nothing" which is very common all the time.  See how you like that.  Try go to church or meetings, conventions without a sign language interepter, would you be able to enjoy those events?


 


I could go on and on with many other things but hopefully you get the idea but you need to put yourself as being a deaf person first to understand what it is like for us for years and years and years.


 


Please do it as it will be a real education for you.  Thanks for letting me vent here.


 


 

Message 6 of 16
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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

Very well put.

Message 7 of 16
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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

Enlightening to read the opinions of collector52 and bilge21.



I can understand the various points of view. IMO adaptations for the handicapped need to be done with the idea that there are folks who are going to cope more easily with certain obstacles, some folks who may cope with difficulty - and others for whom that one big, fat, cold roadblock is going to be the straw that broke the camel's back.



The judge erred rather spectacularly.

Message 8 of 16
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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

bilge21
Community Member

The biggest problem of trying to sue a company such as eBay to try and force them to conform to the Disability Act is that it can be next to impossible to enforce a court order, especially if the company isn't even based in the US. While eBay is based in San Jose and can be forced to adhere to any judgements, many companies are not.


 


The best way is to work with the company, make them realize just how many millions of potential customers they are missing by not having easy access for those customers. According to Gallaudet Research Institute, as of 2005, there are 10 million hearing impaired and 1 million functionally deaf people in the U.S. alone. That's a lot of potential customers for any company.


 


In the court case mentioned above, eBay worked with the woman, offered her alternatives and yet she rejected them all. I don't know what other ways eBay offered her, but they at least tried to work with her and it just wasn't enough for her. When the lawsuit came to court, the judge found she couldn't prove she even tried to register. Basically, maybe she tried to set up a seller's account, found she would have to use the phone to get the password and simply said "Uh, no. I'm gonna sue", though eBay offered her alternatives. From the way I read it, the lady was just looking for an excuse to sue instead of trying to work WITH the company and get her account set up.


 


To me, court is a last resort.  As myself and collector52 prove, we didn't need a lawsuit to set ourselves up for sellers account. We adapted, found a way and got our accounts set up. If WE can do it, there's absolutely no reason why she couldn't.


 


THAT is why I said I didn't agree with the lady's decision to sue.


 


What made me laugh was what she said.."You know what's funny -- eBay loved me as a buyer," she said. "Oh, sure ... because they made money off of me."  UUhh, no. eBay makes it's money off the sellers and ads, not the buyers. Whether a product sells or not, the seller still has to pay fees. the buyer pays nothing. In fact, eBay pays the buyer, in e-bucks, lol.

Message 9 of 16
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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

I can understand both points of view (bilge & collector) but I believe everyone has the right to preserve their dignity.  Perhaps the lady could have been more willing to find a workaround rather than sue but, since we don't know what solutions eBay offered her, it is hard to make a judgment call.


 


I would object strongly if I had to have someone else take the call for me.  My sister has been severely hearing impaired for many years and I have seen her struggle to be treated as normal, and not "stupid" because she can't hear.  I know that, for her, being asked to get someone else to take the call would be just another insult to her intelligence.  eBay is a big company and should already have something in place to take care of that issue.  If they don't, then shame on them.


 


Unfortunately it oftens takes a fight or a court case to get things done.  Maybe that was why the lady decided to sue.

Message 10 of 16
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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

I wonder if the first word US Parents teach their kids is Sue ...

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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

Anonymous
Not applicable

I set up another new account as a non-store (2nd non-store so I can get 50 free monthly listings on eBay.ca and another 50 free on eBay.com after being pissed off for not offering me the free listing promos with another non-store, so I can list 200 free listings monthly with 2 non-store accounts) recently and was unable to list any item because of the verifying process.


 


Although I read that eBay claimed that they did "offer alternative ways of verifying her identity".  I am sorry to say it is a hogwash.


 


I did go through all the process and stopped and call eBay through IP Relay Service (Internet Phone Relay Service).  The main problem is that they expect us to give BOTH bank account and credit card.


 


When I go through this process, I clicked Bank account and typed all information and then clicked "continue" and the next page came up asking for a credit card number which I don't have a credit card and I am NOT going to get one for that purpose.


 


So I went back to calling eBay once again through IP Relay Service and they said they need a debit card or credit card and I choose the bank account but it still doesn't work and she suggested I checked my eBay account to set up the one-time payment process and I did, the problem remain the same, they want BOTH, bank account and credit card.


 


Again, both process required me to click "call me"!   I was trying to remember how did I go through with my 2nd account with no problems about 3 years ago unless eBay has changed that process?   And why should I have someone else to answer the phone "for" me as I have no way of getting hold of them in a few minutes, they can be away or eBay would get the answering machine, that is not ideal and not acceptable and it shouldn't be mandatory for the verfying purposes.


 


I am totally disappointed with eBay and would think eBay would maybe change something to make it more accommodate to the Deaf and hard of hearing sellers, after those courts??  But no!!


 


I think I am going to check with the Canadian Human Rights Commission to see if I have a good case against eBay for discriminating???  I have to try something to make eBay to be more accommodate to us, not making pure hell for us to go through this process where we cannot get anywhere to register ourselves as sellers. 


 


I knew some of you would oppose but please think yourself in our shoes and see how it feels for us to be so frustrating with the hearing world's being so osbessed with "phone" when in fact they can offer us the other options or make it more accommodations with other ways like when I talked to them through IP Relay Service, so why can't they verifyed it that way????  Think about that.


 


For those who have a phone or more than phone, see yourself how often you are carrying your phone with you all the time and how much you spend your time on phone.  I think you would be amazed to learn how much that is becoming as I call as "osbessed".  I have see so many people "glue" their phones to their ears even in the shopping stores, walking, even in the car while drinving (that is unsafe!!), etc.


 


Thanks for letting me vent.

Message 12 of 16
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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

A related problem but not as serious as with those who cannot hear at all.............


 


I am hard of hearing and I cannot understand accents on the phone.


in real life I read lips and and I get by just fine.  People who don't know me well don't know it's as much of a problem for me as it is.


 


When I call ebay the majority of people manning the phones have heavy accents.


Often I cannot understand anything they say.  In many cases they are reading a script and I could scream because they are talking very fast about things which have nothing to do with my ?s.


 


I almost alway have a HUGE headache when I'm done. 


 


While I understand that it might not be possible to hire only people whose English is understandable to everyone................ 


The fact is that I may as well have no hearing at all when I call ebay most of the time.


 


 


 

Message 13 of 16
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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

Many people find call center   Chinglish   very diffficult to understand.

Message 14 of 16
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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

ADA Sec. 12132 and perhaps Sec. 225. Arguments are that ebay is private company and not a common carrier.


 


 


"not discriminate" = possible for disabled person to use service but ADA does not discuss level of convenience. So if plaintiff has to engage help for one-time registration but can use site afterwards, I would not consider that a discrimination, only less convenient.


 


Btw. she failed to provide any valid legal complaint and yet she appealed. Appealed what exactly if there is no complaint in the first place? Looks like publicity stunt.


 


How about vision impaired vs Ebay? Perhaps another lawsuit.


 


Recently Pierre posted this, very good for the situation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer


 

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Re: Deaf woman's eBay complaint highlights dispute over Web access for disabled

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