eBay

dhslk · ‎08-18-2014

Hello. Against my better judgement, I am posting here (trolls, please stay away). Are any other Canadian sellers who ship a large percentage of their orders overseas via CanadaPost SURFACE mail having the same problem as me?

I have been selling internationally for over a decade, have been TRS since the program started and have 100% positive feedback. This year, I have a fair number of "DEFECTS' for international opened cases for INR, all but one of which were closed by the buyer when their order arrived shortly thereafter. Virtually all of these follow the same 'script" . Buyer opens case with comment something like "Hi. I know you said it would probably take about xxx weeks to arrive, but I'm opening the case just in case" (READ ebay keeps sending me emails that are making me paranoid). Buyer closes case when item arrives and leaves me positive feedback. They are VERY happy with their order and happy that I gave them the option to choose the less expensive surface mail (airmail is also offered). No problem should exist. However, ebay counts this as a DEFECT, despite the fact that I delivered exactly as promised and exactly as chosen by the buyer and the BUYER closed the case.

I also sell on other venues. ONLY on ebay does this occur because only ebay does their best to make their buyers nervous. And, only ebay would penalize you for a transaction that ends well.

In the 'olden days", the window to initiate a case was 8 weeks, which meant that major countries like UK/Germany/France were not a problem. Only the odd case from Australia, etc. was opened. And I don't think ebay used to send out 'paranoia-inducing' emails in the 'olden days'.

I am still projected to be TRS in the US (I have never had an INR there), but, even there I could be in trouble with a bit of bad luck. I just had a SNAD opened the other day by a buyer who stated in their reasons "Sorry. My mistake. I thought I was buying a sofa, not a slipcover. Please send me return instructions.)" Again, shouldn't be a problem. I have a no questions asked return policy and was happy to accept the return. BUT this 'DEFECT' will stay on my record for a year.

And, does anyone know what will happen to TRS status in Canada? It appears that GLOBAL status will affect ebay.ca ranking, even though I have NEVER had a case of any kind opened against me from a Canadian buyer.

Anyway, has anyone looked into possible legal ways of fighting this defect policy? It is INSANE that a seller should have to worry about being penalized for a no-fault situation that ends amicably. Has anyone had any success by contacting ebay's legal department and, if so, can you provide some advice?

pierrelebel · ‎08-18-2014

Have you read the Terms of Use (User Agreement) you have signed (electronically) with eBay?

Once you understand the User Agreement, you have two choices:

1) sell on eBay using their terms - whether you like them or not

2) forget eBay and use other venues to sell your products.

The third alternative of course is to waste your money on a lawyer. What do you think a lawyer can do ?

dhslk · ‎08-18-2014

With respect, user agreements are still subject to Canadian law, even if ebay wishes they weren't.

pierrelebel · ‎08-18-2014

You list on eBay.com (in the USA) with an American public company established in California USA and you pay your monthly fees to a subsidiary located in Switzerland.

You do not pay HST or GST on your listing fees because the Canadian government does not recognize these transactions as taking place in Canada.

What Canadian laws?

But, please, do not let my comments stop you. If you feel a lawyer can be beneficial to you against eBay, go ahead.

dhslk · ‎08-18-2014

THIS is why I don't bother posting here.

I list on ebay.ca .

I am hoping to hear from other Canadian sellers who are also affected by ebay's 'punishment' for the use of CanadaPost surface mail.

I am hoping to hear from anyone who is/has actually taken action or is considering taking action against ebay or who has found out anything of any usefulness in doing so.

cumos55 · ‎08-18-2014

The key to knowing what to do with international shipping is to do several things.

(1) I used to use Small Packet surface..... as time passed I found which countries were problem countries and blocked them.... First because of delivery time, ... well over 7 weeks....and second because of the temperament of the buyers, in a specific country, the country's customs... or just an historical sense of problems to come.

(2) Over time I found a few people... mainly in Europe that asked for a high cost shipping ... airmail... no surface mail... They bought they paid and everything worked out well

(3) Then came a major adjustment in January 2013... and international shipping for everything over 0.5 kg ... outside of Canada and the US became International Parcel surface. This was fully insured and with tracking....

Buyers never question parcel arrival as tracking shows he parcel in customs after 5 weeks....

(4) I sell books... and they can be heavy.... and my buyers appear to be patient people.. The temperament of the buyer is critical

(5) International sales today are only to a few select countries in Europe...

(6) International buyers have only one shipping option, and it is my choice..... and the least cost option is International Parcel Surface... unless the buyer asks for an airmail option... and everything with insurance and tracking.

and one last thing... communication...

Knowing what to say to International buyers immediately after a paid purchase is critical ... letting them know what to expect over the next 6 to 7 weeks.

Over the years small adjustments have been made... and right now , after a purchase by an international buyer I send the following email -----

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Thanks for purchasing this book.

Your purchase will be in the mail on Wednesday, August 20.

Delivery via surface mail should take about 6 to 7 weeks, and sometimes
longer if the parcel gets caught up in the postal system, or in customs.

A delivery time of 6 to 7 weeks is standard for countries such as Germany,
Ireland and the United Kingdom.

Once delivered to the post office in Canada, delivery becomes the
responsibility of Canada Post and then the local postal service in the
Norway.

The parcel will be fully insured, and with a tracking number, allowing one
to follow the path of the parcel as it travels through the postal systems.

If you have any questions at anytime, please do ask

cumos55

-----------------

This was send within the last hour to a buyer in Norway....

cumos55 · ‎08-18-2014

I have been selling on eBay since January 2003....

As the years passed I have made adjustments.... with each adjustment making it easier for me to sell on eBay... without major problems.

International sales became a major adjustment... in relation to eBay's rules... and the cost of postage as adjusted by Canada Post ... each January.

I sell based on my choices.... and things work well.

Know what NOT to do is critical.

(1) Which countries not to ship to.

(2) Which shipping options not to use....

(3) Which items not to sell internationally...... and example... The first listing found for you was an Ikea product... and many more... Ikea comes from Sweden, Does it not..... Why ship this outside of Canada and the US?

Does not Ikea cover the world with its product.?

and then... find complementary items to sell, items similar to what you already sell... increase your sales to Canadian and US buyers and limit sales outside of North America...

You sell Ikea product... with your major competitor being Ikea...

Build an exclusive market where you and not the buyers have exclusive control..

cumos55 · ‎08-18-2014

Dealing with eBay is based on what is presented in the User Agreement....

They are eBay's rules.... their statement with respect limited liability in a legal sense

One has to recognize that the User Agreement for Canada, eBay.ca is somewhat different... sort of....when compared to the US, eBay.com, User Agreement.... in a legal sense

Taking on eBay would be like driving a go-cart in the Daytona 500.... and eBay has the top driver at his best.... who would lap you 50 times before you do your first lap.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

In order to be successful on eBay one has to adjust... I did... others have, and many will continue to sell on eBay.

It has been my choice to sell on eBay... to sell what I choose to sell....use eBay effectively... make adjustments where appropriate... all in relation to my business.

It is my business... where I sell my inventory ... to my buyers.....

My most important understanding with respect to selling on eBay is knowing what NOT to do... and success follows.

And My "NOT DO DO" list has already been listed... and to be adjusted ... perhaps in the future.

and... My biggest finding.... Small adjustments gave big results...

cumos55 · ‎08-18-2014

Do a search on the internet for an answer.....

femmefan1946 · ‎08-18-2014

(6) International buyers have only one shipping option, and it is my choice..... ( emphasis added.)

That's the word.

MY choice.

Not eBay's.

Not the buyer's.

The seller chooses the shipping service, based on her knowledge of the availability of her product, the speed and reliability of the shipping service, and above all her demographic.

Certain demographics are populated by calm people who are willing to wait for delivery of items they have searched years to find.

Some are populated by 'instant satisfaction' types who get upset that ordering from overseas takes longer than buying from the ice cream truck that just drove down the street.

Shipping by surface is cheap. But the buyer pays for the shipping. If the item is important to them, they will either be willing to wait for cheap slow deliveryor to pay for expensive fast delivery.

And that is the customer's choice. Accept the seller terms or don't.

Selling on eBay means you are accepting that slow delivery will be penalized if the customer complains. That's the deal for reaching millions of potential customers daily.

mr.elmwood · ‎08-18-2014

@dhslk wrote:
THIS is why I don't bother posting here.

I list on ebay.ca .

I am hoping to hear from other Canadian sellers who are also affected by ebay's 'punishment' for the use of CanadaPost surface mail.

I am hoping to hear from anyone who is/has actually taken action or is considering taking action against ebay or who has found out anything of any usefulness in doing so.

To answer your narrow question, suits have taken place. The net effect for everyone? Nothing. There was a small suit in Quebec, last year, that a lower court ruled in favour of the plaintiff. No doubt that is being appealed and will go on forever.

There was a class action suit in the USA, oh, crackers, about five years ago. Some litigants got settlements in pennies. There have been other attempts, over the years, all have failed.

Keep in mind that eBay does not even recognize Canada as a market. At eBay Live in Chicago 08, I was introduced to the VP for Associated Markets. Under his management fell Canada and other countries.

eBay does NOT punish for the use of any shipping method. The only time that becomes an issue is when there is a claim by the buyer. I have had no legitimate claims in several thousand sales, so, why make it an issue? That is a red herring.

With 9600 FB in 13 years, you are not exactly new at this, so, why the angst?

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cumos55 · ‎08-18-2014

If a seller chooses to include something in their business ...

and .... That something creates a problem with buyers....

Should not that something be classified as a defect ... and be held against the seller as an unacceptable business practice...

That is the reality of how this business of selling should function on eBay...... Happy buyers create a successful business.

cumos55 · ‎08-18-2014

Let us go to court..

The complaint.... Defects, as defined by eBay are received when a case for non-receipt is opened... and then buyer acknowledges the purchased item has been received and closes the case.... The Plaintiff retains the defect, yet the Plaintiff has met all of the requirements to deliver the purchased item to the buyer.

OP is questioned and explains the situation.

---------------------------------------

Then eBay calls up a witness.... (perhaps someone like yours truly)

The first series of questions relate to the use of Small Packet Surface for international sales, the problems encountered, and the adjustments undertaken to correct the problem of non-receipt...

How did the progression of rule changes over the years on eBay affect the witness's ability to ship internationally and use Small Packet Surface.

What was the result when Small Packet Surface was used after the witness made adjustments for international sales

What is the current situation, as of 2014, as stated by the witness

All of the answers have been stated above.

------------------------------------------

The Arbitrator/Judge states that the plaintive must make adjustments to minimize the occurrence of future defects....

eBay's rules are there to be applied... and it is plaintiff's option to adjust, or find another sales venue.

-----------------------------------------

Final comment --- eBay is not responsible for what a seller does or does not do to maintain a business of selling on eBay.

In order to continue selling on eBay... each seller must meet certain criteria, established by eBay

ca_cunn · ‎08-18-2014

Anyone operating under the impression that Ebay cares even the smallest portion of the distal end of a rat's alimentary canal is delusional. It is their perception, right or wrong, that they are utterly and totally infallible and that their 'worlds brightest minds' are so superior intellectually to anyone else's thoughts that the peons are just to be ignored. Fair enough, Hear me well Ebay, keep on doing business in this manner and you will ultimately collapse under the weight of your own ego.

mr.elmwood · ‎08-18-2014

@ca_cunn wrote:
Anyone operating under the impression that Ebay cares even the smallest portion of the distal end of a rat's alimentary canal is delusional. It is their perception, right or wrong, that they are utterly and totally infallible and that their 'worlds brightest minds' are so superior intellectually to anyone else's thoughts that the peons are just to be ignored. Fair enough, Hear me well Ebay, keep on doing business in this manner and you will ultimately collapse under the weight of your own ego.

eBay did 203 BILLION in 2013. They are projecting $300 BILLION for 2015, globally.

Yer first sentence is right, yer last wrong.

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ca_cunn · ‎08-19-2014

Possibly but as I remember Rome felt the same way and so did the Third Reich. How did they fare long term? not so well as I recall. To distort the thoughts of, I believe, P.T. Barnum, "Ya can screw over all of the people some of the time and ya can screw over some of the people all of the time but ya can't screw over all the people all of the time!"

cumos55 · ‎08-19-2014

eBay sets the standard.

Some sellers have no trouble meeting that standard.

In turn taking eBay to court does not work in this situation, because it is the responsibility of a seller to meet that standard.....

and .....many sellers have no trouble meeting that standard.

----------------------

Sellers are graded in a manner similar to the grades in any course one would take at a college or university.

and that is A+, A, B+, B, C+, C, D, F, and on eBay it is in relation to how a seller meets the need of a buyer.

and... in that course not everyone gets an A+, while then ... not everyone fails....

Over the years eBay has worked to define a standard to grade a seller..... and it will continue to do so ... search for an ever more effective way to do so.

Sellers adjust or they leave., or they are "asked" to leave ....or they are prevented from selling on eBay ever again....

------------------------------

A lawyer will be of no benefit... costly, and then the final decision would be....Seller makes the adjustment, or seller leaves.

Many sellers do not know how to make the adjustment......

Many sellers on eBay.com have indicated what their defect is... and in many instances one is dumbfounded as to how many defects a seller can in fact accumulate... and how easily.that accumulation occurred

----------------------------------

OP has a problem that can very easily be remedied....... and OP has until March 2015 to make that adjustment...especially if the defects were created before the Spring Update was announced in March 2014....

OP has to look forward to March 2015 and prove over the next series of months that things will be better in relation to the Defect System of evaluation of sellers...

---------------------------------

eBay is not deliberately taking aim at a specific group of sellers.... eBay is looking for an effective and easily administered way to evaluate the competency of all sellers in relation to buyers..

Some adjustments have been made with the Fall 2014 Seller Update..... eBay must set a standard where it does not interfere with the Seller-Buyer relationship and create defects where none should occur....Take note of the Fall Seller Update..

Future adjustments will occur.....in this Defect system of evaluation system.

If OP wants to continue to sell on eBay... the appropriate adjustments will be made.....

No lawyer required....

mr.elmwood · ‎08-19-2014

Many sellers do not know how to make the adjustment......

Isn't that the truth. The more a seller cannot adapt, change, re-invent, re-invigorate, the more they attack: "I don't want to and you can't make me.

Um? Yeah they can "make you".

I was in court about 15 years ago, small issue, relatively. Judge that if this was about millions, it would be worth the court's time. As it was about thousands, he looked at the plaintiff's lawyer who said there are "issues", smacked his gavel and said "Dismissed". The judge also admonished that lawyer for wasting the court's time, his client's money and said "Your client should have issues with YOU!".

Relativity. One Cdn seller out of 125 million IDs? Localized beliefs about "issues"? Fight the good fight and let us know how it goes.

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rose-dee · ‎08-19-2014

As someone who spent many years in the legal field (as a researcher and paralegal for some large corporate/commercial law firms), I'd like to answer your question from the point of view of direct knowledge of the real world legal system -- at least in Canada.

Most people don't realize that a grievance in the commercial sense, as real and justified as it may be, can't form the basis of a realistic lawsuit without several factors being present:

1) There must be a provable loss associated with the claim (which usually, but not always, means money), and almost always involves a lot of source documentation.

2) The claim must have legal merit, in other words, it must be able to be shown that a contract was breached, there was intent to deceive or do harm to on the part of the defendant, or that another precept of Canadian commercial law was deliberately broken. This criteria is a lot harder for most plaintiffs to meet, certainly a lot harder than most lay people imagine.

3) There must be enough at stake, either monetarily or at law, to make the claim worth pursuing. Most good lawyers won't take on a case that has little or no possibility of winning, or that won't add to their "resumé". No lawyer wants to be chided publicly by a judge (as Mr. E. reported) for bringing a frivolous matter before a court.

4) You need to have money, and lots of it, to pay your legal fees. Long before you get anywhere near a trial date, you will be spending thousands, or even tens of thousands, on background research by lawyers/staff, disbursements of various kinds, registry fees, investigators, and hourly fees by the lawyer him/herself.

Good corporate lawyers usually demand an up-front retainer of anywhere from $1,000 to $5,000 or more, depending on the law firm and the case details -- the thinner the case and the bigger the firm, the larger the retainer. You would be expected to refresh the retainer from time to time as well. Corporate claims are not like personal injury claims -- very few lawyers will take them on a contingency basis (i.e. pay a percentage once you win) unless they think it has a good chance of setting a ground-breaking legal precedent for which they'll get the credit.

5) You will need to have the patience and steadfastness to work through a process that in all likelihood will take several years to resolve. Even if you were to get to court, there are still big risks. Dismissal of the case usually means you pay not only your own lawyer's fees and disbursements, but those of your opponent as well. Often a court will assign responsibility only partly, which can result in a situation where your partial "success" doesn't even cover your legal fees and expenses. Then there are appeals -- more money, more time, more risk.

So, given all of the above (which is just the barest outline), my short answer would be not to even consider it. Find a better venue if this isn't working for you, because you won't change this one by a legal suit. If you've accepted the eBay user agreement, as all of us must in order to use the site, you've accepted the terms set out by eBay. Unless eBay can be proven to deliberately have breached those terms, and you can meet the criteria I've noted above, there really is no rational purpose in trying to change eBay's rules through legal action.

Most corporate lawyers will be more than happy to discuss such a prospective case with you, probably for an initial fee of a few hundred dollars, and they will almost certainly tell you what I've told you here.

Now, this does beg the question: what about class action suits? Well, eBay has had its experience with those in the past, and if I recall, in the eBay.com user agreement the user must specifically forfeit his rights to any class action suits against eBay. I don't believe the eBay.ca agreement has these clauses, but for good reason -- the likelihood of a successful class action being brought by even several thousand Canadian sellers against a US-based corporation is almost nil. That is especially so if the users have previously agreed to the site owner's terms and conditions.

I do share your frustration and disgust with the defect system, and I don't like it, but it comes with the package, and some of the rest of the package is still workable for many sellers. I agree that many defects are being unfairly given out by eBay at the moment. However I also suspect the actual functioning of the defect system is going to be fine-tuned and hopefully improved from sellers' point of view over the next few months.

The rational solutions: (a) find ways to either absorb defects without undue stress, or avoid them as far as possible; or (b) spread your business activities around (as many do) to offset issues or losses here; and/or (c) keep an alternate ID alive in the event your usual selling ID becomes hopelessly corrupted with defects.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I thought I'd respond to your question in a serious way from my experience in the legal field.

mr.elmwood · ‎08-19-2014

Atta girl Rose. However, this still does answer what our OP wants. Our OP wants someone to agree with them and direct them to the court, where, they fill in some papers and get the desired action they want.

It does not matter that the suit is unwinnable. It does not matter that it would take a long time and a large amount of money.

Wasn't it about a year ago, we had a poster who was sending registered letters to JD and as soon as he accepted one "GOTCHA". That person had a guaranteed winnable agenda. Of course, JD's legal team would never let a letter get through. Minor point.

One has to have lost something in order to gain something in return. Defect is a hilarious term. They knew darn well it would ruffle feathers and cause much constipation. Would it be better if they were called "butterflies"? What would that change?

Perhaps the word defect could be amended to, say, oh, perhaps, "boobs". Sellers could sit and chat about each others boobs. It would make for some pretty interesting eavesdropping. "How many boobs do you have?" "I beg your pardon?" "Did you phone Peggy and complain about yer latest boob?". Best said in public is "Show me yer boobs". "Are yer boobs increasing or decreasing?" "Sorry about those boobs ya got, have you tried complaining?"

It is just a word.

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