eBay

mdf_jersey · ‎06-04-2014

Hi all,

l had an item where the buyer instead of talking to me , decided to file a claim on a item he wanted to return. Long story short , the item was on its way back and as soon as it arrived in my city Victoria, Pay Pal refunded the money, say that the tracking number provided information that the item was delivered.

Guess what? The item could not be delivered because the address was incomplete , and now it is going back to the sender. He now has his money and my item its around $175.00

I have already appealed it and they responded that they were satisfied.

see for your self Canada post CP973053349US. I wonder if I should call Pay Pal personally?

pierrelebel · ‎06-04-2014

"I wonder if I should call Pay Pal personally?"

Of course. That is the only way PayPal will understand the reality of the problem.

mdf_jersey · ‎06-04-2014

You just have to wonder if is a waist of time, especially after hearing others with their horror stories with Pay Pal.

Any way I did call Pay Pal. They seemed very understanding. Treated me like a human being. Not bad. They filed an appeal on my behalf, so now its a wait and see.

pierrelebel · ‎06-04-2014

"others with their horror stories"

Over the years we have read all types of "horror stories".

Many were just that: stories.

Many were the result of users (buyers and/or sellers) not understanding the terms of their agreement or the protection policies and their requirements.

From time to time, when I read a "horror story" about a payment system, I am reminded of the posts about twelve years ago, of a seller who had received payment through BidPay (Western Union), deposited the instrument, and was surprised to hear from her bank that the amount had "bounced" and been debited from her bank account.

Reading her many posts at the time, one could be convinced that BidPay and Western Union were crooks and were going bankrupt.

The real story came up some time later when it was realized that her husband had cashed the BidPay WU money order, got the money from the bank and went to the beer store. What the seller had deposited was the non-negotiable stub (copy).

Someone was red faced.

Good Luck with your appeal with PayPal. I expect it will work out for you.

cumos55 · ‎06-05-2014

Buyer was returning the purchase in order to get the refund.

Parcel was not delivered to the original sender... the seller, because the address was incomplete...

So the parcel went back to sender... which in this case is the buyer..

Did the buyer do this on purpose? or was this done by accident?...

Once seller gets the parcel as a return ... the contents should be inspected... and seller makes the refund... Not paypal....

One gets the impression that there are many mistakes.... with respect to the interpretation of tracking... and that a refund is made too quickly... and not by the seller.

My view of what happened.......

mdf_jersey · ‎06-05-2014

I dont know if the seller did this on purpose. I will give the buyer the shadow of doubt that this was a mistake.

I did call Pay Pal and they did say that they always give the return address so that there will be no mistake. After speaking to Pay Pal I received a response. Even though the person agreed that there was a problem, the so called PROTECTION SERVICE replied as follows;

The seller has provided valid tracking information on the above case. As a
result, your appeal can not be granted at this time.

We encourage you to contact your seller for resolution.

We value your business and regret that you have had this experience.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
Azeema
Protection Services

NOW WHAT? Hey PAY PAL, it was your fault!!

melissasminis · ‎06-05-2014

This makes me sick. This is why I only sell invaluable items, can't trust ebay or paypal for sure!!!!!

mdf_jersey · ‎06-05-2014

Well I again called PAY PAL. This is what they said they would do. Yes they agreed something went wrong. UPS tracking said the item was delivered, where CANADA POST clearly shows the address was incomplete and the item was sent back to the buyer. So, what pay pal is willing to do for this long time customer is, they will send an Email to the buyer to please resend the item back to me.

Thats great except for the fact , the buyer now has his refund and the item. Pay Pal also goes on to say that since the buyer has already been refunded they can not do anything about the money. In a nut shell, the buyer can simply dis regard Pay Pal's request and keep both the item and money and that all she wrote. Im the big loser. $177.00 loss.

I said in my opening post " I wonder if I should call Pay Pal?

melissasminis · ‎06-06-2014

I would personally keep calling them until you get a person who really understands the situation, and knows it's not you the sellers fault in this situation. This is simply not right, that they refunded without proper notice of delivery from the people who actually deliver it (Canada Post). USPS just simply passes it across the border. Seems like that was enough for Paypal to refund the buyer, that it crossed the border. Good to know this happens, can't trust what Paypal tells us, that we are protected, and it's a safe way to do transactions. I have seen my fair share of craziness come from Ebay and Paypal in the past, you wouldn't even believe. Think of it this way though, if you're selling on Ebay, most of your transactions will be successful, as a small number you may have problems with, don't give up!

cumos55 · ‎06-07-2014

A refund was made prematurely...

Someone owes someone some money... and it is not the buyer in this situation.

Paypal has already indicated they made a mistake..... and it is Paypal that must correct that mistake.... directly and not by contacting the buyer...

Paypal owes the seller an amount for item plus postage....

cumos55 · ‎06-07-2014

Several problem situations have been noted on eBay.com where a refund was made by eBay or Paypal......

(1) Tracking shows delivery but buyer said it has not been received.... This becomes an insurance claim... not a quick refund...

(2) Tracking shows item in transit... but the predicted delivery date has been passed.... refund made and then parcel is delivered.

(3) Parcel is available for pickup at a postal outlet.... buyer says item not received.... refund made and then buyer picks up parcel.

All of these situations occur with tracking available... The presence of tracking should never be ignored...

Seller should be 100 % in control of when the refund is made.....and only if a "proper" amount of time has passed should eBay or Paypal step in and make the refund.... if that is what is required.....

For any business transaction on eBay... the relationship between seller and buyer is most important.....

and there should be no intervention unless absolutely necessary....

mdf_jersey · ‎06-07-2014

The last time I called them they said to me that USPS shows that the item was delivered . Based on that I was willing to let it go, thinking that well its not really PAY PAL's fault if USPS put down the wrong information.

I decided to look for my self. I looked up the tracking on USPS and it shows the same thing that CANADA POST's tracking says. That the item was returned to sender due to incomplete address. So is PAY PAL lying? Obviously some one dropped the ball over there and they are not taking responsibility. Far as I am concerned PAY PAL owes me $177.

Im going to call them again on Monday.

mdf_jersey · ‎06-10-2014

My final appeal did not go well again. Pay Pal regards confirmation of delivery when the carriers ( CP / USPS ) verifies the address. This is enough information for Pay Pal to refund the buyer. Ive never hear of something so stupid.Nice for the buyer. Has $177 + the item. Thats fair.

Pay Pal opened another appeal for the experts to look at, and I received another generic type of response. Only this time they told me not to call again. Were done with you.

Notice how the STATUS below says : STATUS - ATTEMPTED DELIVERY RETURNED TO SENDER. If that doesnt say something about how much this stinks, then I dont know what does.

Your buyer provided the following valid tracking information:

Tracking Number: CP973053349US
Shipping Company: Canada Post/USPS
Status: Attempted delivery returned to sender

Since the tracking information shows the merchandise was delivered to you,
we have issued a refund to the buyer on your behalf. If you have any
further questions, please feel free to either respond to this email or send
a message to complaint-response@paypal.com. The buyer provided valid proof
of shipment and proof of delivery attempt to the address provided. Please
work directly with the buyer to receive the item back, as it has been
returned.

We reviewed this appeal and found no additional information or evidence to
support your case. As a result, we have closed this case and cannot accept
or respond to any additional appeals.

We appreciate your patience and cooperation regarding this matter.

Sincerely,
Nathan
Protection Services

cumos55 · ‎06-10-2014

The big problem is the address....

Tracking on both Canada Post and USPS do not show that the parcel was delivered in Victoria

Paypal calls it delivery attempted.... but fail to recognize that the address on the parcel was incorrect.

and then Paypal calls it as delivered...

If the parcel went back to the US buyer... then it was not delivered.....

Conclusion... Paypal refunded the payment prematurely... without your permission

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tracking on USPS shows that the parcel was delivered back to the buyer....

Send an invoice to the buyer........

Confirm your address....

and then ask buyer to pay the invoice or return the purchase... and be very specific about your address...

Your sales record should show that payment has been refunded and has not been received

and if buyer does not pay.... file a payment not received..... this becomes an eBay problem.... and it also puts this onto the buyer....

Everything should work... perhaps.....

The Paypal situation may cause problems with what can be done on eBay..... ... maybe not...

mdf_jersey · ‎06-11-2014

I decided that enough is enough and filed a claim with the BBB in San Jose against Pay Pal. Its getting to be the principle of the whole thing. Why do they need to protect their $177 so much, where they have to lie. I have called them 3 times over this and each time their excuses change. I have numerous Ebay accounts and deal with Pay Pal almost on a daily level.

Where is Safe and Secure!

cumos55 · ‎06-11-2014

Many sellers that have had problems with eBay/Paypal have filed with the BBB.

This situation did make me go back to the eBay User Agreement.. and I did some reading.

The User Agreement is quite different for eBay.ca thatn eBay.com.

On eBay.ca we find the following.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

Disclaimer of Warranties; Limitation of Liability

>

We (eBay) are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Since Paypal is a part of eBay, and is a mandated method of payment on eBay.... Then.. What should Paypal have done?

Also...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

No Agency

>

No agency, partnership, joint venture, employee-employer, or franchiser-franchisee relationship is intended or created by this User Agreement

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As sellers on eBay.ca we sell independent of eBay of Paypal... and in this situation Paypal stepped in and made a refund....

I had a situation where a buyer said they did not receive the parcel.... no Tracking.

Paypal asked if a refund should be made...... and I said only the buyer would know if the parcel arrived.... Refund was made ... No Problem

Only the seller would know if the purchase was returned to the seller... Tracking shows there was a problem....with the address on the parcel... and the parcel was returned to the sender of the parcel... the buyer.

Now the buyer has the purchase as well as the payment... and Paypal says... All OK?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Based on my first reading of this discussion....

The biggest problem with this discussion is to sort out who the seller and the buyer.are... in relation to .... who is sending what to whom and why...

Could Paypal have been confused by this ... sending what to whom and why....

Could Paypal have been working with the view that the person sending the parcel was the seller?

mdf_jersey · ‎06-11-2014

Could Paypal have been confused by this ... sending what to whom and why....

Could Paypal have been working with the view that the person sending the parcel was the seller?

I contacted Pay Pal 3 separate times. Talked to 6 people. There was no confusion of who was who and why the item was being sent, as the was part of an escalated claim that Pay Pal was in control.

Disclaimer of Warranties; Limitation of Liability

>

We (eBay) are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers

I appreciate you looking some of that stuff up.

You found where is says that Pay Pal doesn't actually handle the transaction, but they can remove funds from your account and hold those funds , and then re lease those funds when they feel it is the right time. It does seem to me that they are very much involved in the handling the transaction and the money transaction. Maybe Im wrong. It seems like it to me.

cumos55 · ‎06-11-2014

There is more to the Agreement.. specifically on eBay.com that allows eBay to do certain things such as

Hold back funds.... and so forth.

By agreeing to the User Agreement we allow eBay to do so.

If you want to sell on eBay you must conform to eBay's rules ... and Paypal in relation to eBay rules ....as specified in the agreement..

The following ---

Disclaimer of Warranties; Limitation of Liability

>

We (eBay) are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers

is only indicated on the User Agreement on eBay.ca... not on eBay.com...

In many respects we on eBay.ca are treated differently....than on eBay.com.

However, because we sell on eBay.com we must then acknowledge that those rules are applicable when we make a sale on eBay.com.....

Remember that change in rule... we are guided by the rules on the site on which we have made a sale..... or where the buyer lives...

The legalese becomes complicated..... The User Agreements...eBay.ca versus eBay .com are most interesting.... the differences between the two is important in content, and in turn how they are applied to sellers... and then buyers.

A most interesting content is the statement that a buyer must read the description fully... and without question

pierrelebel · ‎06-12-2014

"and filed a claim with the BBB in San Jose against Pay Pal."

Unfortunately, that may prove to be a waste of time.

Over 6,000 complaints filed against PayPal in the last three years. All closed.

PayPal maintains a A+ rating with BBB - the highest possible.

http://www.bbb.org/sanjose/business-reviews/payment-processing-service/paypal-in-san-jose-ca-210387

kashka · ‎06-12-2014

BBB has helped me out.A six month back and forth appeals granted and denied by Ebay and PP was resolved in two weeks with BBB regarding a INR claim by a scammer buyer in Taiwan.Item was showed delivered and PP and Ebay backed up the buyer..I appealed and won..3 times..lol.I didn't give up.After being turned down for reimbursement (even after I won the appeal),I just kept appealing.PP finally after the 4th attempt PP admitted I was in the right and congratulated me but told me it was my responsibility to collect from the buyer..They couldn't do anything..if I remember correctly their excuse was along the lines that "their hands were tied"..Thats when I went to the BBB in San Jose and just like that,my money was back in my PP account.

After another seller came on the boards awhile back with a similar experience and mentioned he jumped thru the hoops just as I did..His amount was over $500 and had attempted every avenue to get his money back and was at his wits end.I shared my BBB story..he filed..and was also reimbursed.

So,yes..BBB had been helpful...unless they are in PP/Ebays pockets now...