PayPal issues. When is a REFUND NOT a REFUND?

[lina-mallows]

Recently we purchased an item form a seller- and immediately PAID with PayPal.

On March 26th we PAID US$157.57/C$165.90 to the SELLER

The SELLER claims that they damaged the item while attempting to pack it.
So, on March 27th the SELLER PAID US though PayPal (NOT by way of a REFUND) C$157.57 NET C$152.70

THEREFORE- we sustained a real loss of C$13.20 in FEES + currency EXCHANGE because SELLER DOES NOT understand REFUND FUNCTION!

HERE's the FUN part- the seller was notified immediately that I was unconcerned about any perceived damage- and that I wanted the item!
I wrote THREE times telling them this.
NO REPLY FROM THE SELLER ARRIVED.

So- I filed a COMPLAINT with PayPal for NON-DELIVERY- as I had only received a PARTIAL REFUND (by way of a payment)- and had not received the item.

NOW- the SELLER is disputing the PAYMENT SENT (NOT A FULL REFUND)- sent without an address- and allegedly- if the copy is to believed "Payments without a shipping address are not covered by PayPal's seller protection policies and programs. Learn More"

HOWEVER- the transaction is now flagged with this note:
"A claim has been filed against this transaction. Respond to PayPal's request for information. "

As the access, after many attempts to provide information, has failed.
I have written to CONTACT PAYPAL, and filed a FRAUD COMPLAINT with eBay.

I say FRAUD- as what seller wouldn't want to sell a 'damaged' item to a willing buyer AT FULL PRICE! I WON, I PAID, AND I STILL WANT THE ITEM!
The SELLER- if they still has- will not comment on this fact.

Has any seller, when buying an item ever have to deal with this type of issue?

[dipmicro]

It looks more like ignorance than fraud. Why would they go into the whole trouble to rip you off by $13 which don't even stay in their pockets? I think they sold an item and then they got all sentimental about it and made up their mind.

Btw. PayPal is one of few merchant solutions that refund fees during refund. When I was shopping around for a merchant solution, many of them do not credit back the transaction fees on refund ...

[momoftwingles2]

A suggestion would be to refund THE REFUND to the sellers and then ask them to REFUND your money from the ORIGINAL PAYMENT so that no fees are charged to you. As I don't know who the sellers are, they may be inexperienced with PayPal and not realize that if they click the REFUND button that fees are not involved. It's in little type and all the way at the bottom which I am sure that many don't purposely look for unless they know about it!

Susan
momoftwingles2

[momoftwingles2]

Another suggestion...pick up the phone and call them! Sometimes words do not come across as well when e-mailed. A personal phone call may help resolve this situation AND if they truly do not know how to properly refund your money...you would have the opportunity to explain it to them.

I realize that this does not get the product in YOUR hands, but since the seller made the effort to give you your money back...I doubt very seriously that fraud is involved.

Susan

[lina-mallows]

THANK YOU to all who have written.
dipmicro- I also think that FRAUD may be too strong- though I find it very suspicious that the seller, having informed us of the damage- AND THAT THEY found that repair (in BC) would be too expensive- wouldn't be happy to offload an "AS IS" item at FULL price.
(The damage as described is of no concern to me- and I can easily handle the repair.)


THIS POT, with LID, often sells in excess of US$500.
I PAID about 1/3 the open market value- at auction's end.
I think one of my staunch competitors (there are three of us who actively buy these high end pieces- so we all know who we are when bidding) convinced them to make an off-eBay side deal- AT A HIGHER PRICE!
That could be one reason why the seller was so unconcerned about "eating" their LISTING- END VALUE- AND PAYPAL FEES.
Which for them were likely around $15.oo.

I also understand that it is not like they are putting the eBay/PayPal fees I PAID in their pocket. They certainly are not. Nor, on the flip side, they also PAID to receive MY MONEY- and the eBay listing fee.

The seller could have asked for mutual cancellation of the transaction- they didn't. Doesn't this look suspicious?

This is not a NEW seller- so I think ignorance of THE REFUND mechanism is a bit of a stretch.

They could have used the REFUND BUTTON- I pointed this out!!!!
and this would have saved them the PayPal fees.
They ignored this information. Isn't this strange?

I'd be happy to REFUND the PAYMENT in order to accept a REFUND.
However, after the lack of communication with this seller over this issue- and their lack of response to an OFFICIAL PayPal complaint makes me a bit squeamish. i.e. NO JENSEN POT- AND NO $160+

[dipmicro]

Well, if you feel strong about this, file a non-received item claim, get the money back, hold their 2nd payment for 30-60 days and neg them after May 1st. That will teach them to hit the refund button quite fast.

[lina-mallows]

dipmicro-I did file a NON-RECEIVED item complaint (having not received a full refund- a seller is permitted a partial refund, and delivery of the item if the buyer is agreeable)- and the seller has not responded. PayPal is having problems with the dispute area- and have written to us twice about our inability to access this area, and post further information.

I have already left the following NEGATIVE feedback for the seller:

3/26 PAID US$157.57/C$165.90 3/27 SELLER PAID (NOT REFUND) C$157.57 NET C$152.70

followed up by:
C$13.20 LOSS in FEES+EXCHANGE because SELLER DOES NOT understand REFUND FUNCTION

This was the sellers reply:
I SEE I AM NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO THINKS YOU ARE A MENTAL CASE SELLERS BE AWARE!!


Unlike some (most?) other buyers, and sellers on eBay- I am not playing games with eBay's NEW rules. If feedback is to be honest, it doesn't matter when it is left. Negative feedback hurts a seller far more than a buyer. And, unlike some- I could care less about the negative I receive as a buyer- though these will come to an end under the NEW eBay rules. A SELLER who reneges deserves a NEGATIVE.
Retaliatory feedback is just that- I WON- I PAID- and I still want the item. Any seller can, when reviewing the feedback understand that the problem was not with me as the buyer. I tried- the seller failed.
I can rack up a dozen+ NEGATIVE feedbacks- and still have NO STRIKES for an eBay buyer violation- as all the items were paid for! The overall feedback is positive- we are PAYPAL VERIFIED- with a CONFIRMED address- and a PayPal BUYER reputation in excess of 800.
So- even with all the NEGATIVE FEEDBACK- unless you are trying to pull a fast one as a SELLER- our bids, and money are as good as anyone else's!

[lina-mallows]

momoftwingles2- just as an aside- with your stellar feedback of over 11,987 received; do you think the rejigging of the numbers under the NEW rules will get you a shooting star?

Just a thought- your repeat business is remarkable.
Ours is just over 50%. But mostly single item sales (3789 total).
We figure ours will move to 3000+ under the NEW model.

[dipmicro]

Has any seller, when buying an item ever have to deal with this type of issue?

I had different issue a year or so ago with a seller who delivered 1,300pcs instead of 2,400pcs of an item. Of course that is not negligibe as almost half the shipment is missing, my cost per item not doubled, but tripled considering the shipping.

I filed the dispute. Seller asked me to return (at my cost) the product for refund. But the cost of return shipping was almost same as the product itself so after getting this "refund" I would be in the same expense but with nothing in my hand.

Convinced I did not do anything wrong I requested the buyer protection from PayPal. PayPal rep asked me if I received the shipment. - Yes. - Then we cannot do anything. - She said I can either keep the product as is or ship it back and get the refund. After some talking to her, she admited they are allowed to pay off up to $25. It wasn't as much as I needed to cover my loss, but it was close enough and I took it. Btw. the seller did not get negged because I was just building up my ID and did not want to screw my hard work for measly few $$.

[dipmicro]

my cost per item not doubled, but tripled considering the shipping

Yes recped, I got that too after re-reading my own post. My cost doubled.

[lina-mallows]

dipmicro- Just a friendly suggestion-
Get another eBay ID for buying.

Use one eBay ID, or more for buying- and another ID for selling.
This way there are few issues about feedback, or other account affecting things.

I say this- as for ONE BIG reason- I do not want to leave a visible trail that may be followed by OUR buyers, to our suppliers! That is- if I buy from another eBay seller, for resale- why reveal this information? Feedback is there for all to see when you are a seller. Whereas, as a buyer- you can keep it private.

[dipmicro]

Lina, eventually I did take another eBay ID for buying. But my wife uses it for selling her cross-stitch stuff 🙂 I even registered a matching .com domain for her. I got the third ID, grown it to 100 feedback and then converted it to selling ID for UK market. I am out of buying IDs .... yet again 😞

[dipmicro]

I am out of buying IDs .... yet again

Well, I am not completely right. There is a 4th one with FB 4 - all positive, naturally 🙂

[lina-mallows]

dipmicro- being creative- there is a never ending supply.
IF- you are willing to get MORE e-mail accounts, more bank accounts- and possibly other credit cards.
I acknowledge that it is not as easy as some would make it seem.
However- different ID's do make life easier in the long run.

We have a 300+ STAR 100% perfect account that may be converted to selling at some point. So far it has only been used for buying.

For this other eBay ID- I have already REGISTERED the matching DOT COM domain. So, when rolled out- we will be very easy to find by using WWW

Another eBay ID used for buying is tied to a .NET which is up and running. Unfortunately- the nature of the FOOD items sold there- DOES not permit these to be easily sold on eBay. So, though advantageously tied- we do not market these products on eBay. BASIC chocolate- for delivery ONLY IN CANADA is easy. Shipping to the US, with PRIOR NOTICE legislation in place, makes this an onerous, and expensive, task. So we don't ship there. We have a US affiliate who ship from the US side, so we don';t have to deal with cross border issues.

JUST AS A NOTE- "chocolate"- as a FOOD product- for fountains, and baking IS NOT subject to GST (zero rated supply)- or any provincial taxes.
(eBay's tax calculators often have issues with these nuances.)

[coxengines]

Don't understand?

Why does one need multiple bank and CC accounts for multiple ID'S?

Xena

[momoftwingles2]

Hi Lina,

I hadn't even given any thought to how my feedback numbers will change when eBay finishes playing around with all the numbers. A shooting star would be most appreciated!

I do have many repeat customers that have frequented my store over the past several years. They've actually *watched* our girls grow up as they remember when I took holidays to travel to China twice. Some buy every week, some start their new buying at the beginning of the month and hold their totals open till right near the end of the month and then I have some that buy every few days.

With my buyers coming back so often I am constantly bringing in new things and expanding my store. And, then of course new buyers drop in all of the time.

If you have 50% for repeat business I think that deserves a pat on the back for a job well done! Be it single items or multiple items...I think it just depends on the items one sells. The fact that your buyers are coming back is what counts!

Thanks ever so much for the compliment.....it is very much appreciated!

Susan
momoftwingles2

[lina-mallows]

xenalook - Each eBay account must be linked to a UNIQUE e-mail account.
If also linked to a UNIQUE PayPal account-0 that too must have a separate AND UNIQUE bank account.

In order to have more than one PayPal account- each must have a UNIQUE credit card to become verified.

eBay does not allow TWO ID'S to be linked to the SAME e-mail account.

Have I missed anything?

[recped]

Have I missed anything?

You don't have to "link" an eBay user id to a PayPal account and you don't need a credit card or bank account to have an eBay user id unless it's a selling account.

The ONLY thing you need is a unique email address and all the various email addresses can be linked to a single PayPal account (there is a limit of 5 or 8(?) email addresses). You are only allowed to have two PayPal accounts.

[coxengines]

That was the gist of my question as I have several eBay ID's, all linked to the same CC, bank account and PP ID.

The only unique item is the email address. Since we run our email server, piece of cake.

Xena

[lina-mallows]

Hi- sorry if I overlooked this- all our accounts were established as SELLER accounts- even if they weren't/aren't being used to sell.

I guess at the time SELLER ACCOUNTS just made sense. So everything was set up this way.