Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-brothers-suing-ebay-over-cancelled-sneaker-sale-1.2421...

 

The case hasn't progressed to the point of arguing the specific merits.

 

In dispute at present is the right of Quebec residents to sue eBay in Quebec, essentially in contravention of the eBay user agreement, which would have suits tried in California.

 

So far two Quebec rulings have confirmed that eBay sellers are considered "consumers" and therefore are covered by the consumer protection provided in the Quebec Civil code.

 

interesting.

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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

 

@pierrelebel wrote:

"leur ordinateur ici à Montréal"

I think "leur" (their in English) refers to the bother's computer, not eBay's.


Actually, this poses an interesting question: if "imposed jurisdiction" was not an issue in an internet service provider's contract, what is the jurisdiction legally-speaking?  Is it the place where the user accesses the provider's services, or the place from where the provider sends out its services over the internet and where its files reside? 

 

I wish someone with lots of funds to spare in a province other than Quebec would bring a case on this point.  On second thought, maybe someone has -- one day when I'm not too busy, I'll do a case law search on that subject. 

Message 41 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

"On second thought, maybe someone has "

 

The Canadian federal government, through CRA, studied eBay's business over ten years ago and determined through a ruling that the service was provided in the USA.

 

Good Luck to anyone going against their opinion.

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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers


@pierrelebel wrote:

"On second thought, maybe someone has "

 

The Canadian federal government, through CRA, studied eBay's business over ten years ago and determined through a ruling that the service was provided in the USA.

Good Luck to anyone going against their opinion.


That would be a tax ruling, for purposes of determining taxable services (GST, etc.), correct?  

 

That opinion would have little bearing on a civil court action brought by a user against a service provider for, as in the Quebec case, unilateral cessation of services for example (or any other contractual claim).  The issues would be quite distinct from tax questions, and the problem would still remain of judicially considering whether legal jurisdiction to try a civil case arises out of the place where the user accesses the internet services, or the place where the service provider has their computers and files.  There are probably compelling arguments on both sides, that really need to be determined by the courts and set into law, hopefully outside of Quebec.  

 

A legal test in the civil courts would be much more significant than a CRA ruling in any event because it would focus on the respective rights of parties to a contract.  The key issue which the Quebec court made clear is whether there was equality and fairness between signatories of a commercial contract, i.e. whether a contract can be considered valid if one party is effectively shut out of negotiating the terms.  

 

This is a very significant area of concern for consumers of internet services by companies who use the "no check/no service" method of binding their customers to legal agreements.  It's also an important issue of contract law that as far as I'm aware, hasn't been specifically tested in the courts with respect to internet service providers like eBay.  As I say, I'll have to do some digging on this - I may find that someone has already decided to bring it to the test! 

Message 43 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

You are very wrong on this one, ebay is required by law to have a physical address in Canada*(toronto) and they do have a GST/HST #

We have been through this before. Lets keep the facts truthful.
Message 44 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

There is also this statement in the User Agreement.

 

Some jurisdictions do not allow the disclaimer of warranties or exclusion of damages, so such disclaimers and exclusions may not apply to you.

Message 45 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

i'm very happy to see the little guys won this battle. hopefully this is the start and there will be more protecting against large corporations

Message 46 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

As a seller I am resident  in Canada,  registered as a business in the province of Manitoba.

 

I do all of my business from within Canada...

 

I use eBay... effectively paying rent for use of their computers which are located outside of Canada.

 

 

If there is a legal problem, eBay  says I must go to Ontario... Toronto.

 

Yet  my business is not registered in Ontario...  So why should I go to Toronto to have a legal problem heard.

 

If anything this court case would define where a court case should be heard.....

 

 

 

The fact that this is being dealt with in Quebec and not elsewhere,  could help define where such cases should be heard, whether in Canada,  the US or perhaps, elsewhere

Message 47 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

quebec and ontario law do not mix, just like apple and oranges.

 

you could file in manitoba and see if they would stay or they would motion to transfer it.

 

i currently have a court order against a BC resident, i have the choice to have a writ against his property in my province or go to BC and enforce via BC court.

 

I think you get the idea, some provinces will cross others wont.

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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers


@angus_coin_shop wrote:

quebec and ontario law do not mix, just like apple and oranges.

 you could file in manitoba and see if they would stay or they would motion to transfer it.

i currently have a court order against a BC resident, i have the choice to have a writ against his property in my province or go to BC and enforce via BC court.

I think you get the idea, some provinces will cross others wont.


You are probably right about Quebec legal decisions having little effect in the rest of Canada (unless those cases are elevated to the Supreme Court of Canada), but I'm afraid you misunderstand the legal system in English Canada.  Civil disputes or legal claims between two litigants over property issues or personal injury, at least in English Canada, can be brought either in the province where the Plaintiff resides (you, in this case), or where the event occurred (BC in your case).  

 

This is completely different from jurisdictional competence in contract cases, where a court must decide jurisdiction based on the wording of the contract itself between the two parties.  Usually in commercial contracts, both parties understand and agree to which jurisdiction will apply to the contract.  In the Quebec case the court takes the position that eBay's unilateral imposition of Santa Barbara, California as the sole jurisdiction for suits under the user agreement is effectively illegal under Quebec law, and so the Quebec court should be able to set the jurisdiction, in this case, Quebec (Montreal).  

 

Now this will likely not help the rest of us in Canada unless the case is elevated to the Supreme Court of Canada, or unless, as I said, someone comes along who has the money (and the reason) to fight the issue of jurisdiction in eBay's contract in a province other than Quebec.  If that sort of case were to be won in a court outside Quebec, eBay would have a real problem with its user agreement as it pertained to all Canadian users, since, as I mentioned, the Canadian case would apply everywhere in Canada (outside Quebec, unless Mr. Moko wins there too), and would also set a worrisome precedent for U.S. lawsuits under eBay's contract (user agreement).  

 

'cumos' -- Do you have deep enough pockets to challenge the jurisdiction issue in the the eBay contract?  You would have to find a breach of contract issue under the user agreement to bring forward in the Manitoba courts, and a good lawyer to argue that the matter should be heard in Manitoba, not Ontario.  But with enough money and time, I imagine it could be done.  Maybe one of the "Dragons" would like to use their excess money in this consumer-friendly fight!  Smiley Happy

Message 49 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

i'm sure the day it happens we will know about it. there's some cat out there that is the ticking time bomb.

 

that will be a great day for all consumers.

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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

"and they do have a GST/HST #"

 

What does that have to do with anything?  It is irrelevant to the discussion.  Many businesses in Canada are GST/HST registered with a GST/HST number yet do NOT charge GST/HST on non-taxable goods and services. 

Your own business works that way according to your eBay listings.  Many items you sell are not taxable, even though you have a GST/HST number.  The same applies to a lot of businesses dealing on both taxable and non-taxable goods and/or services.  It has nothing to do with this discussion.

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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

One of my favourite comment is...... Deep pockets... short arms... very difficult to reach my money

 

I am very careful about where I spend my hard earned money.

 

 

 

I find discussions like this a challenge....  It is a thought process for me..

 

I will continue studying a situation  until it is fully understood...  or until it will not have an effect on me....

 

It is my approach to understanding something... set up a scenario and work through the options.

 

 

To me it is "systems modelling" ... this approach has helped me to understand many complex situations, scenarios.

 

 

This is a legal situation very much outside my area of expertise....  and very much of a challenge.

 

The complexities are big... and depending on the final decision... we shall see

 

 

We in Canada know that Quebec is different....  I now know how different  in relation to civil law....  

 

One can only guess what will happen.... Wait and see

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Message 52 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

I'm not sure what makes this case so fascinating.

 

Unless we know why the listing was pulled by eBay, then there is really  nothing to discuss.

 

They must have had some reason for doing so and IMO it had nothing to do with the fact that the brothers did not have the shoes in hand when they listed.

That type of selling is sanctioned and very common.

 

If they pulled it for a legitimate reason the brothers have no case.

If eBay pulled the listing for a reason which was not justified and it gets to the point where it looks like they might lose, then they simply shoot the brothers a little cash with a gag order and make it go away.

 

No big deal either way.

 

Message 53 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

Unless we know why the listing was pulled by eBay, then there is really nothing to discuss.

 

They must have had some reason for doing so and IMO it had nothing to do with the fact that the brothers did not have the shoes in hand when they listed.

 

I would think so. I don't think it is as " Neat " as posted by the CBC.

 

Free Publicity for Nike & eBay.

 

Can you imagine how many people now will be searching for Limited Edition Nike Basketball Shoes & the ability to sell the item on eBay for, hopefully, Big Bucks.

Message 54 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

Where is that piece of toast that looks like the Shroud of Turin?

Message 55 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

stay on the topic in hand "quebec"

 

your are showing your age

Message 56 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

per-sale is very common on this site. i don't think the reason(s) is relevant. ebay can fight as much as they want but at the end the law of the land will prevail over there little rule book.

Message 57 of 71
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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers

I still don't see where "California" came into this, when it is ON on the user agreement.

 

Perhaps either they have changed this since (or in response to) this case (now that Rose-dee has explained that it isn't really a "case" I'm just calling it a "case" cause I already forgot what it actually is 🙂 ) - or because the brothers listed on dot com?

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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers


@i*m-still-here wrote:

I'm not sure what makes this case so fascinating.

Unless we know why the listing was pulled by eBay, then there is really  nothing to discuss.

 


What makes this case so fascinating from a legal point of view has nothing to do with Moko's claims of loss or why eBay pulled the listing.  Those may be important factors for the Plaintiffs themselves, but the truly critical issue for all consumers of such services is the question of jurisdiction for suits brought by consumers under a "check the box" type user agreement.  If, as I said, this case had been brought outside Quebec, it may have had serious implications for eBay throughout Canada, and probably even in the U.S. because of our similar civil legal systems.  The fact that the decision regarding jurisdiction occurred in a Quebec court will unfortunately have little impact for consumers elsewhere .  

 

Think of it this way:  If Moko et al  had brought their case in the jurisdiction stipulated unilaterally by eBay in the user agreement (i.e. Santa Barbara, CA), this claim of loss of profit (or whatever Moko et al) are after, would have been just another blip on the radar, with little meaning for most users -- after all, who is realistically likely to find themselves in a similar situation with a listing for a $50,000 US pair of shoes that gets removed by eBay?  Not too many, I would think. 

 

Yet how many users of eBay and other internet provider services have more or less unwittingly clicked on that little box that says "Yes I agree" when presented with the user agreement, not having read it, let alone understood it?  Now you're talking about potentially millions.  

 

If a court outside Quebec were to decide that a suit brought against eBay did not have to be heard in Santa Barbara, CA, and perhaps even went as far as the Quebec court did in calling such "check the box" agreements which impose a jurisdiction illegal, or at best abusive, then you suddenly have a massive legal shift that has to be confronted by such companies as eBay, Amazon, and many other internet service providers.  Consumers might actually find that jurisdictions stated in user agreements would become, at worst, country-specific, or at best, regionally specific to, for example, the nearest civil court registry.  There might be some other consumer-friendly compromise (such as leaving the choice of jurisdiction to the consumer of the services -- that would be a radical development in favour of the users). 

 

Please read my post above about why setting a "familiar" local jurisdiction is so favourable for these big companies and why this is such an important issue legally.  

 

Having that particular advantage ripped away from big companies might at least remove some of the handicap that the ordinary person has in trying to get redress for losses or breaches by a big company under a user agreement (with any internet service provider).  It wouldn't entirely level the playing field, because these companies still have massive amounts of money to throw at lawsuits that could set "dangerous" precedents for them, but it would at least mean a better chance of a fair hearing.  

 

So, from a legal perspective, nobody will care much whether Moko et al win their case and get their losses paid by eBay or not, because it's such an odd situation and unlikely to occur again.  What matters, and what signals the possibility of a precedent elsewhere, is that the Moko case was allowed to be heard in a jurisdiction other than that imposed by the eBay user agreement. I expect that's the reason CBC decided to run it as news, not just because of the rather ludicrous facts of the case.  

 

In a very real sense, the drama ended once the Quebec court made the finding on jurisdiction.  The rest is rather meaningless fluff (unless Moko loses and the case is taken to the Supreme Court of Canada by an intervenor interested primarily in the jurisdictional question).  

 

I think many consumer organizations and corporate lawyers will be paying attention to see if anything further happens now on the question of jurisdiction in cases under user agreements, i.e. if this issue is taken up in some court other than in Quebec.  Anybody well-heeled enough and interested in trying?  Woman Very Happy

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Quebec Court of Appeal rules against eBay in favour of sellers


@art-in-the-making wrote:

I still don't see where "California" came into this, when it is ON on the user agreement.

 

Perhaps either they have changed this since (or in response to) this case (now that Rose-dee has explained that it isn't really a "case" I'm just calling it a "case" cause I already forgot what it actually is 🙂 ) - or because the brothers listed on dot com?


You might be right about the listing on .com triggering the California venue for legal suits.  The Quebec court was clear that California (Santa Barbara) was stipulated, and was the issue.  

 

In fact, the court asked why the jurisdiction wouldn't have been Ontario, since EBay has a place of business there.  So the user agreement in this particular case must have stipulated California for there to have even been an issue over jurisdiction.  

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