What would you do?

[olgaolga-123]

What would you do in my place? I sold a sweater to a buyer from UK. It was in pristine condition. The buyer asked me to declare a lower value on the parcel, which I refused to do. He asked me several times about it. Today I got an e-mail from him. Here it is:

I had to pay and excess of $20 as the improper amount of postage was paid at your end.

It baffles me. Why US and Canada fail to understand, that when you post pre owned goods- not new, you don't pay the same charges or declare the same as a NEW item.

I expect a refund. And- the jumper is dirty- dog hairs- I suspect a spaniel

The postage declared is the same I quoted  him before he paid for the purchase. We do not have the dog and I inspected the sweater myself, it was in clean, no flaws condition. It seems he tries to get the refund for the duties he paid, claiming the sweater was dirty. What would you do?

[cumos55]

Always  communicate in a very quiet manner... without any hint of unhappiness... Be careful of what is said...

and be very specific to eBay's rules... and no more....

Also... Look at buyer's feedback... and more specifically feedback left by the buyer....  This may give a view of of the buyer's mental state... as it relates to buying on eBay

[mr.elmwood]

Follow the four rules of writing"

- think it
- write it
- read it
- send it

Everyone gets four chances to not make a mistake.

[cleopatras-needle]

Sorry, I thought I did give a definition for valuation for Customs in my previous post.  It has nothing at all to do with what an item is "worth" to the seller, what they paid for it, whether they got it for free, how many times and at what prices they have sold identical articles, whether they shipped it with insurance, or what liability the carrier may or may not have.  Have a look at websites that deal with the GATT, with customs valuation, international trade agreements, etc if you are looking for the definition.

Customs in every country of course retains the right to examine and re-assess the value of anything entering the country - nothing anyone else can do about that.  And an item sent with a falsely lowered valuation is more likely to be chosen for examination.  Our responsibility is to value the item at the selling price, and state the true selling price on the invoice, which can be verified by eBay and PayPal.

[cleopatras-needle]

Sorry again - different user ID.

[mr.elmwood]

I follow your reasoning, I just do not agree with it in the individual, low dollar case.

What you know is different from what I know. I have never seen declared value defined as selling price. I have only ever seen it as a declared carrier value.

.

[rose-dee]

I think we're getting side-tracked by focusing on how to define "valuation".  The legal issues of falsifying aside, the reality is that no matter what value you put on a sold article, Customs in the buyer's country can assess it at whatever they believe it should be assessed at.  The value shown on an item entering a foreign country, as 'maggie' properly pointed out, should always be the invoiced (paid) amount for the article, regardless of any other factors. 

So who then actually bears the risk if a seller doesn't indicate the transaction amount as the value?  The buyer -- because anything that may seem suspicious, unusual or unclear to a foreign Customs agent is subject to re-evaluation at a higher level (with higher duties and -- as the OP's buyer discovered -- probably also additional fees for collecting those extra amounts). 

For the same reason, it's always a good idea to put a packing slip into (or even better - onto) a parcel going out of Canada.  This may not only speed up or obviate Customs processing, but is the buyer's ready proof on paper of the value for Customs purposes.

All this was water under the bridge for the OP, since she had already quite properly advised her buyer that she would not falsify the value for Customs purposes.  The OP did absolutely nothing wrong.  The buyer is strong-arming the OP hoping to recover monies that he (the buyer) is responsible for.  I don't think he's entirely ignorant of his country's Customs charges -- why else would he have asked for the lower valuation?  I've run into this attitude with U.K. buyers in particular because their Customs/collection charges are so high. 

I agree with 'maggie' that offering to cancel a sale and refunding a buyer who asks for a false value is a logical solution, but that could backfire too -- if the buyer feels thwarted and upset at being turned away, he/she may decide to either refuse the cancellation or leave neutral/negative FB.  Either way, potential trouble.  I think I'd rather stand my ground every time, put the proper transactional value on the Customs form and let eBay apply its rules after the fact to remove any nasty FB (or remove the buyer).

What should the OP do?  Hmmm -- I see the buyer has already left his negative remarks, so in my opinion it's now a question of whether the OP can get this unfortunate defect removed. 

My view -- I wouldn't engage with him in providing detailed explanations and/or justifications about Customs valuations.  And honestly, at this point I wouldn't offer a refund either.  Chances are this entitled twit is going to expect the OP to pay for (or refund) return shipping and/or he will ship back something resembling a turd. 

I would immediately get on the phone to eBay and report the buyer's demands that the seller illegally falsify the Customs forms, asking eBay to remove the FB accordingly.  Hopefully in this situation, the buyer communicated only through eBay messages, so that eBay can see the record of the buyer's improper request.  Although his negative FB comment is unfortunately not exactly specific about his Customs complaints, I think that together with his eBay messages to the seller, it may be enough to have that FB removed. 

Since the transaction is now already defected, IMO the OP has little to lose by simply trying to get rid of the buyer and his FB. 

Oh yes, and once the dust has settled, block him.

[maximus7001]

Get on the phone with ebay about this right away and get that pathetic feedback removed. This buyer is obviously an idiot.

[mr.elmwood]

Do as Max and Rose say. Get on the phone and get that FB removed.  eBay knows and states that local taxes, etc, are the buyers responsibility.

eBay policy re FB removal: 

Feedback or DSR related defects related solely to:

• Customs delays or customs fees.

  http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/feedback-removal.html

[rose-dee]

Yes, I hope the OP follows through on this with eBay.  She shouldn't be stuck with this neg.

As an aside (and back to Customs issues again), it occurred to me that now that we are all required to enter an HS code on every item going out of Canada, it's rather pointless not to declare the transactional (invoiced) value of an item. 

Sure, you could fudge the code and the value, but to what end?  Potentially creating an angry buyer who not only has his parcel torn open by Customs in his country, but also gets dinged with additional duty/taxes and, to add insult to injury, the collection fee by his P.O. 

Many buyers will feel the seller is to blame for all of that -- and perhaps rightly so if the seller wasn't honest about providing Customs information in the first place.  Granted, a lot of items will slip through the Customs cracks, but probably fewer now that HS codes are required.  And what's the point of falsely entering the HS code if the parcel doesn't appear to contain what the code says it does? 

No, I think I'll just stick to being honest, and if I'm asked by buyers to reduce/falsify a value for Customs purposes I will just say that the HS code which is now mandatory will "tip off" Customs anyway, so sorry, no point.  And I'll continue to include a Paypal packing slip with every purchase, which is the buyer's insurance that he/she will not be charged for more than the price paid for the item. 

Incidentally, just to close this subject -- and I know that sellers don't like to think about this -- those Customs declarations have the legal effect of a statutory declaration -- which is why they want your John Henry on the form.  You never really know what else a buyer may be up to, and a truthful declaration protects the seller in a case for example of a fraud investigation by a foreign Customs authority.  These kinds of investigations are far easier nowadays, what with digital everything being available to everybody.   It wouldn't take much to track back to the Paypal or eBay transaction record.

[pjcdn2005]

There would be no need to 'fudge' the HS code as in most cases, they are not all that specific anyway. For example, a watch could be worth $5 or it could be $500+ depending on the brand.

I suppose anything is possible but I do think that it is unlikely that another country would 'go after' a seller for writing the wrong amount on the custom's form on behalf of the buyer. I'm not suggesting that anyone should do that but as far as being worried about it happening...I think it's way down there on the list of probabilities.

[mr.elmwood]

This has happened to me a couple of times. Roll up to Canada Customs from the USA. I am few bucks over. Guy looks at it, shakes his head, scratches out my numbers and puts in numbers so I can get through.

The paperwork is for expediency, not punishment.

[olgaolga-123]

Thank you everyone for the assistance. E-Bay has just removed it from my account.

[mr.elmwood]

Olga, that is a once in a lifetime weirdo. Please do not judge other foreign buyers by that numpty's behaviour.

Glad you got that removed, I have been watching all day.

[maximus7001]

I knew they would remove it with a phone call. In future listings you may want to add a disclaimer to your listings. Something like this:

Any taxes, duties or VAT charged by your government has nothing to due with us and are the buyer's responsibility.

We always list with #24 font because anything smaller looks like micro printing on a mobile device. Lots of people use a mobile for ebay nowadays.

[rose-dee]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

There would be no need to 'fudge' the HS code as in most cases, they are not all that specific anyway. For example, a watch could be worth $5 or it could be $500+ depending on the brand.

Yes, but who is going to use an HS code for a wristwatch if they're trying to devalue an item for Customs purposes?  I think a wristwatch declared at $5 is more likely to attract the curiosity of Customs if it's being shipped internationally, since the shipping cost is clearly higher than the value.  All that will do is create a potential for the buyer to be unhappy with the result, with possible backlash to the seller.  That was my point - the seller might as well call a spade a spade, i.e. use the proper code and declare the value honestly.

"I suppose anything is possible but I do think that it is unlikely that another country would 'go after' a seller for writing the wrong amount on the custom's form on behalf of the buyer. I'm not suggesting that anyone should do that but as far as being worried about it happening...I think it's way down there on the list of probabilities."

Actually, with the level of criminal money laundering going on in many places in the world these days, and the fact that most international police and other officials can easily collaborate with the RCMP, depending on what a seller is offering for sale and to what countries, I expect it's a little higher on the list of probabilities than many of us imagine.  It won't keep me awake at night, but then I don't falsify Customs information under any circumstances.

'olga' -- I'm very glad eBay removed that neg FB -- it was the right thing for them to do!

[rose-dee]

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@maximus7001 wrote:

I knew they would remove it with a phone call. In future listings you may want to add a disclaimer to your listings. Something like this:

Any taxes, duties or VAT charged by your government has nothing to due with us and are the buyer's responsibility.

We always list with #24 font because anything smaller looks like micro printing on a mobile device. Lots of people use a mobile for ebay nowadays.

---

I might drop the "nothing to do with us" and say instead: "We have no control over or knowledge of any taxes, duties or VAT charged by your government on personally imported goods; those charges are the buyer's responsibility.  Please contact your country's customs office to determine what those charges are before buying.  Thank you."

(The "Thank you" probably never hurts.)  And I'm not so sure about the 24 point font -- wow, that will look very shouting and angry on a PC or laptop.  Something in between maybe -- 14 or 16 point?  People can always zoom if they want to. 

[rose-dee]

I wanted to add that now eBay has clearly defined its rules and policies regarding international customs/taxes charges (including removing customs-related negative FB), and placed a notice concerning customs on listings, it's probably not necessary to have a disclaimer like the one above, especially not in big, bold letters. 

I would say that if you feel you need to include such a disclaimer in listings, it might be best to put it somewhere below the description section -- visible but not glaring.

[mr.elmwood]

I agree with Rose. I "think" that is a little aggressive. In 9000 sales I have never had any kind of remark about duty, taxes, fees, etc. Large print may be construed as yelling.

Sure you have a fallback to avoid a potential problem. To me, however, I "think" that for every problem you manage to avoid, you are missing several sales.

I prefer, as The Georgia Satellites sang: "I got a little change in my pocket going ching-a-ling-a-ling".

[pjcdn2005]

Yes, but who is going to use an HS code for a wristwatch if they're trying to devalue an item for Customs purposes?  I think a wristwatch declared at $5 is more likely to attract the curiosity of Customs if it's being shipped internationally, since the shipping cost is clearly higher than the value.

That was just an example rose.  My point was that the HS can be fairly nonspecific so the fact that it now has to be entered has nothing to do with whether someone may or may not change the value for customs.

Actually, with the level of criminal money laundering going on in many places in the world these days, and the fact that most international police and other officials can easily collaborate with the RCMP, depending on what a seller is offering for sale and to what countries, I expect it's a little higher on the list of probabilities than many of us imagine. 

Honestly...I think that it is a hundred times more likely that I would get in a car accident on my way to the post office than that a RCMP officer would come knocking at my door because I valued an item at $40 instead of $400.  Since few of us here sell items worth more than a few hundred dollars, I don't think that anyone is going to get the same response as they would if they were money laundering thousands of dollars.  Customs Canada rarely charges us duty when we receive an item by mail so do you really think that the RCMP are going to use resources here to investigate an ebay seller who incorrectly declared the value on an item that was exported to another country?

If another country does find that an item has been undervalued, the receiver generally has to pay duty/taxes on the correct amount and perhaps pay a fine.  It's unlikely that they are going to do anything to the buyer other than that so it's even more unlikely that they are going to 'go after' the seller who was declaring the amount on the buyer's behalf.  

Again...I'm not advocating that a seller declare a lower amount and I think that everyone should do what they are comfortable with and not feel pressured to do otherwise. But in the years that I have been selling I have never heard of a seller who has lowered the value for customs and has then had any sort of follow up from the police (or anyone) because of it. So unless someone does have an example, suggesting that this would happen is pure speculation.

[pjcdn2005]

I don't suggest that you use that statement but if you "DO" I suggest that you check your spelling first. 🙂

I don't use my cell to shop but I would think that large font like that would be more difficult to read because you would have to keep scrolling to see what it said. Also...I personally find super large font unprofessional and have never seen it used on any other retail site.