Another Insurance question..I am still confused..lol

[kashka]

I have been searching all the posts in SC and am still confused..lol..I have decided to use a 3rd party insurance company for items over a certain amount now that Canada Post has removed the $100 insurance from the Small Packet shipping methods (USA & International).My confusion is some of the insuring companies..in the case of a claim.. ask for proof that the post office accepted the item.Now does this mean I cannot use PayPal label shipping method now and that I will have write up my own labels..pay for the shipping at the PO and get them to stamp my receipt(like in the old days before I used online PP shipping)? As that would be proof that the PO accepted the packages? Can anyone shed some light on this?..Thanks!

[inuk_the_polar_bear]

Moreover, if it was actually required in the past, then none of our shipments were ever actually insured and the TPI providers were taking our money for nothing for all those years.

Doesn't that matter to anyone?

Very astute.

Does not matter to me because insurnce is a scam. Pure and simple.

I not buy insurance, do not buy extended warranties, do not buy service plans. Never have, never will. I am tens of thousands ahead and I have peace of mind.

[i*m-still-here]

Moreover, if it was actually required in the past, then none of our shipments were ever actually insured and the TPI providers were taking our money for nothing for all those years.

Doesn't that matter to anyone?

Very astute.

Does not matter to me because insurnce is a scam. Pure and simple.

Exactly!  Either it's been a requirement for the past few weeks as they told me (which they had every reason to lie about), or it's been a requirement all along........

In either case, those buying the insurance have been blind to this condition until now.

Could that be a more blatant scam????  ................

And yet no one really cares very much about it.

In fact, what seems to happening is that posters are defending the TPI providers by pointing out that we didn't read the small print closely enough and if we missed it it's our fault.

Really?

[kashka]

Well..just got off the phone with InsurePost and they said that getting the bottom half of my PapPal sheet (the part u detach from the label for your records) is where I would get the post office stamp.I also inquired if I use a method ( small packets) that have no tracking and then ask CP to do a "trace" in the case of a claim if that would hinder the claim process,he replied "no".He was quite aware of the recent changes in CP with the removal of the insurance and mentioned all I would need is the stamp and the agreement with the buyer that the package was never delivered or arrived damaged.(and if that doesn't work out with the buyer I am only out an extra $1.50)

 Earlier this morning I also went to the local post office and asked about getting the stamp on the bottom half of the paper that my shipping label was on and they had no problem with stamping it for me.

So in conclusion I think I will prob do this..my volume of parcels has decreased over what I used to sell and if I have to spend $10-$15 more a month on bigger ticket sales then I will.This might not work for everyone and some may feel it's a scam but to me it's a very small price to pay.Everyone just has to decide for themselves if it's worth it for them..we all have different "businesses'.

Thanks again,Poco for all the great advice and info..muchly appreciated..:)

[pocomocomputing]

Insurepost has added a note specifically for Canada Post Small packets in the past week or so. They must have revised it because of all of the discussions here in eBay.ca forums and the numerous emails and calls.

http://www.insurepost.com/questions.asp#GEN22

What type of proof of mailing do I need?

In order to insure a package with InsurePost.com, we need to be sure the package actually was mailed! Placing a stamp on a package or using a meter machine is NOT ACCEPTABLE proof of mailing. We need to see that the insured package was physically placed in the mail flow. This can be a receipt from the post office with an acceptance stamp, a tracking number with an acceptance scan, a customs number with an acceptance scan, or a stamped document from the post office indicating acceptance.

Canada Post shippers: We are aware that Small Packets may not contain a tracking or customs number. In order to cover your packages with InsurePost.com, make sure that your shipments have some form of indication of acceptance from Canada Post. You can have your Postal Representative or Post Master provide an acceptance stamp on your shipping receipt that indicates their acceptance into the mail flow.

[pocomocomputing]

shipsurance.com has added the same statement to their terms.

http://www.shipsurance.com/questions.asp#GEN22

[pocomocomputing]

Regarding the question on when was proof of mailing required by InsurePost. It does appear that PayPal label or printout was sufficient before last December and that proof of mailing was added sometime between July and Dec 2012.

So all shipping using PayPal was most likely covered based on the old terms. However, the old terms does not mean that InsurePost did not use the lack of proof of shipping as an excuse. There must have been enough issues to have forced Insurepost to add the line explicitly saying proof of mailing was required.

Current (today Feb 25, 2013) terms say

In the event of a loss claim, we will require proof of shipping. Acceptable proof includes:
- USPS receipt
- PayPal screen shot of the shipping label or printout
- Endicia Dazzle postage log
- Stamps.com log
- Customs Declaration page with date stamp
- USPS Click N Ship Online Label Record
- Tracking Number (MUST scan as Accepted or Arrival by the shipping carrier for proof of mailing).

Placing a stamp on a package or using a meter machine is NOT ACCEPTABLE proof of shipping.

In order for a package to be covered, the shipping carrier must have verified acceptance of your package for mailing.

The same terms on the same site in the same place from July 10, 2012 (courtesy of my time machine)

Please note: In the event of a loss claim, we will require proof of mailing. Acceptable proof includes:
- USPS receipt
- PayPal screen shot of the shipping label or printout
- Endicia Dazzle postage log
- Stamps.com log
- Customs Declaration page with date stamp
- USPS Click N Ship Online Label Record
- Tracking Number (but MUST state Accepted or Arrival).

Placing a stamp on a package or using a meter machine is NOT ACCEPTABLE proof of mailing.

The same site same page from Dec 14, 2012 (courtesy of my time machine).

Please note: In the event of a loss claim, we will require proof of mailing. Acceptable proof includes:
- USPS receipt
- PayPal screen shot of the shipping label or printout
- Endicia Dazzle postage log
- Stamps.com log
- Customs Declaration page with date stamp
- USPS Click N Ship Online Label Record
- Tracking Number (but MUST state Accepted or Arrival).

Additionally, you must provide proof that the shipping carrier received your package for mailing.

Placing a stamp on a package or using a meter machine is NOT ACCEPTABLE proof of mailing.

[pocomocomputing]

Forgot my links for the quotes

Current Feb 25, 2013 terms link

http://www.insurepost.com/terms.asp

Link to the time machine on July 10, 2012

http://web.archive.org/web/20120710105507/http://www.insurepost.com/terms.asp

Link to the time machine on December 14, 2012

http://web.archive.org/web/20121210202225/http://www.insurepost.com/terms.asp

[cumos55]

It has become clear  that a receipt from Canada Post or a Paypal receipt stamped by Canada Post is required.

It is important to get a receipt... for all companies.

You never know the future will bring for a company that does does not appear to require a receipt today

When filling out a claim form the first statement for U-pic is

File a tracer with the carrier without delay when a package is lost or notify the carrier immediately if the package is damaged.

In response to this  request.. Canada Post will say... you have a receipt indicating that the parcel was delivered to the post office.  Nothing can be tracked beyond this first action  with the parcel.

I have to conclude that the receipt is the first part of the claim for all companies....  having Canada Post receive the parcel, and with no tracking beyond that one step.

[mr.elmwood]

And, with no possible tracking after receipt of the parcel, ..... claim denied.

Delivery to the PO, or RPO, proves you sent it. It proves nothing else.

Why pay for TPI when, claim denied?

[i*m-still-here]

Mr. Elmwood.......... how true!

I have spoken with shipsurance many time over the years.

Every time I get off the phone I''m left feeling slightly or very uneasy and uncertain about the information I was just given. 

Trying to get a straight answer is like a game of cat and mouse and trying to get it in writing (email) is even more challenging.

(U-pic has been much more forthcoming so far.)

To me it seems that they like those loopholes that I hate so much.

If they are monitoring this thread then it would be nice if they'd pipe in right around now????

When I called a few days ago it was my intention to invite them here but the conversation had a certain tension to it and I can only conclude that it was because I was asking uncomfortable questions. 

I find the whole idea that the requirement of this "stamp" wasn't out in the open before being exposed here unsettling.

I find it very hard to place any trust in a company like that now.

shipsurance??????

[kashka]

Well all I know what InsurePost  told me..as long as it is a stamp on either the PayPal label sheet or a stamp on the back of the CN22 label(customer copy) is an indication the parcel got in the mail.And as for shipping if it was sent using an untraceable method such as Small Packet and Canada Post obviously cannot trace it was ok also.Basically all it seemed they wanted was to verify it got accepted at the PO.If I recall while researching all this some of the TPIs( just for the US) mentioned that untraceable shipping methods were covered.

[cumos55]

Canadian sellers are working hard to understand what form of documentation  is required for an insurance claim  with TPI>

In turn  the TPI are on the spot... because  now they have a totally new market available to them.

It is understandable that eventually they will have rules specific to the options with Canada Post.  Removal of the insurance component with Small Packet has created a void that TPI must fill.

Sellers ask the questions, and TPI give the answers  and make an adjustment.

There are two important parts to a claim where a document is require . 

(1)  A document date-stamped by Canada Post indicating the parcel has been mailed.

(2) A letter signed by the buyer indicating the parcel was not received.

One should also read the other specifics with respect to the process with respect to filing a claim.  The claim process must be orderly...  always keep copies of everything sent to a TPI when making an insurance calim

Perhaps  the most important part of learning what to do is the assumption that we  provide the maximum in documentation for all TPI.

Never assume otherwise.... because  it makes sense that eventually all TPI  will have the same or very similar rules... and always follow  the most strict of claim processes for all companies...

It should be noted that companies such as Shipsurance and U-pic are US based companies...  and are learning fast  that Canada is something more than snow, igloos and polar bears.

[cumos55]

I find the whole idea that the requirement of this "stamp" wasn't out in the open before being exposed here unsettling.

Before January  all TPI provided was supplementary insurance.... with respect to Small Packet  with minimal exposure to an insurance claim.

Now  TPI must provide basic insurance...for Small Packet.  Financial liability on the part of TPI has changed dramatically...  TPI need time to adjust.

TPI have no data  that would predict how many insurance claims might occur....  They need data... and then adjustments will be made.

The next 12 months  will be a time of adjustment for Canadian sellers,  as well as for TPI companies....

Keep asking the questions.....  use Small Packet  with insurance when deemed to be appropriate....

--------------------------------------------------------

Personally I find that lettermail, without insurance  is appropriate for mailing many books of appropriate size and  price (less than $25)....  Only one claim, less than 1 % of parcels mailed,  in 2012.  This claim was the first and only claim using lettermail opver the years.

107 parcels were shipped using oversize lettermail... with 45 parcels to the US.

It should be noted that the percentage of claims may differ among categories of inventory..  I sell  books....

[pjcdn2005]

And, with no possible tracking after receipt of the parcel, ..... claim denied.

Delivery to the PO, or RPO, proves you sent it. It proves nothing else.

Why pay for TPI when, claim denied?

 Sorry, but where do you see that tracking is required by any of the insurance agencies that are being mentioned in this thread?

According to the information that I've read here and on the different sites, proof of delivery is not needed just as it was not needed with Canada Post in order to collect insurance.

[i*m-still-here]

I understood that to be suggesting that........

Since this stamp seemed to come out of nowhere, then why should we now trust the TPIPs not to make other demands out of the blue before they will honour a claim?

While it seems far-fetched at first.

It's suggesting that they would be selling TPI for small and light packets which have no tracking, and then after the fact saying that the claim is denied because the packet had no tracking...............

Very Circular...............

BUT how is that different from selling TPI for items using on line shipping, and then saying after the fact that shipments sent with online shipping labels were not covered after all because they weren't processed at the PO.

That's also very circular.

The two scenarios are not that far removed from each other.

I don't know if you remember, but it was only after paypal shipping really took off that shipsurance (and I do think that shipsurance and insurepost are one and the same) changed their forms to accommodate those online shipping labels and seemed to be inviting us to use the two services in tandem.

It's still not clear if that changed a few weeks ago or if it was always a requirement as poco said it was.