
05-09-2013 11:07 AM
O.K. here's the situation, lets say an item was on auction for 5 days . but i decided to wait the five days and place a bid with say... 4 seconds left in the auction. a pop up screen should say "I'm sorry but you are not invested in this product like the other ten people who have been bidding for five days straight. please place a bid somewhere else" do i get that? noooooo. At a "real auction" who ever dosen't have they money, don't get it.( there is no time limit; its who ever bid last, and who can afford it wins) so yeah i suggest you do something about that. because i hate losing product that i might not ever see again. not fair to the people who actually like coming on this site thinking its fair and just. please fix this.
05-13-2013 01:21 AM
On that topic... it`s simple: Like an old saying which goes as said: "Whoever ended with the most toys win"
With bidding on items at the very last seconds or minutes... Whoever has more money in pockets ended as the winner! For me, that's how I keep my temptations in control when I want a certain item off eBay. I would check the actual value in my guide to determite if that item is worth my time in planning to "snipe" my max bid I'm willing to pay.
I do like that method as it save my time and all I do is place ONE max bid - that's all. If someone out-bid me and its value is higher than my guide listed... so be it, I let it go. Let the winner waste their money in there, they won't get any profit anyway.
I prefer myself to be more smart in my bids, there WILL be another same item to come up later - usually in many cases in better condition! More fun for me as a buyer.
05-13-2013 10:16 AM
The sniping program is much more simple than that. To explain in it's simplest terms, it's a macro or set of instructions that says 'automatically place bid of X amount with Y time remaining, where X is the amount the buyer indicates is their maximum price, and Y is generally the programmed bid time by the snipe program.
By the way, I would love to have an explanation from someone who is techno-savvy on exactly how sniping apps/programmes work. For example, are they somehow able to "read" the reserve bids placed by earlier bidders? Does the human bidder behind the programme have to set a maximum bid beforehand? Or does the sniping programme just throw out an impossibly high bid at the very last nano-second, knowing it's unlikely to be challenged by anything on the table?
The OP's experience is also the reason, incidentally, that as a seller I rarely offer items at auction anymore. I find BIN with "Best Offer" is a much happier solution for both buyer and seller.
There is no impossibly high bid. It's buyers/bidders just like everyone else, but the bid is placed automatically.
Sniping tends to be better for buyers because it eliminates open competition, thus keeping the bids lower, IMHO. Snipe bidders tend to win more, again IMHO, because the action of an auction usually picks up at the end. A little experience can show a sniper where to bid with a few hours left in the auction. If they bid like everyone else with more time left, that sends a signal both literally and figuratively to other bidders that the object is more desired by someone else and will push up the price. Snipe bidders also tend to be more aware of overall pricing and have researched the price before the snipe bid taking into consideration both the value of the item, the strength of the seller, and current bids on the item.
I agree that sniping lowers the overall sell price, but the disappointment from buyers is not that they were outbid, but that they thought they were going to get a better deal.
I would suggest that newbie / timid / buyers have lowered the overall sell price even more because they are willing to get a deal on the sellers back, yet upset when they lose to an honest, yet higher bid.
I buy the bulk of my items through auction because the auction final price tends to be significantly lower than the buy it now price, especially where it's a seller with low ebay feedback number or percentage.
I certainly agree, the idea of sniping doesn't fit with a newbies impression of what the bidding process should be like, but it's still fair.
As a seller, I have given up on auctions because 'regular bidders' would bid $10 for a $30 item. When I did have an auction, I actually hoped for a snipe bid because the regular bidders were bidding so low. Instead now I sell the item for $30 with a BIN.
Ultimately, if you want the item, bid your max for it, either physically, or though a sniping program. If it's a great deal, there are other people thinking the same thing and will outbid you if they can.
05-13-2013 03:21 PM
The true 'investment in the item' is the amount you are willing to invest - and nothing else. There are no emotions in auctions only WIN OR LOSE. If you wish to invest more in the items then perhaps you should just 'buy it now' and loose the anxiety and disappointment. Just a suggestion!
05-13-2013 04:33 PM
to "froogal" -- Well, to continue this discussion, I want to add a few points:
1) The sniping experience I described happened to me not as a newbie, but as an experienced eBay buyer with over 200 purchases, and it occurred over a fairly long period. It seemed to me the sniping was getting more sophisticated (and faster) as time passed. So I don't think it's strictly an issue for new eBay buyers.
2) - from your post -
"Sniping tends to be better for buyers because it eliminates open competition, thus keeping the bids lower, IMHO. Snipe bidders tend to win more, again IMHO, because the action of an auction usually picks up at the end. A little experience can show a sniper where to bid with a few hours left in the auction. If they bid like everyone else with more time left, that sends a signal both literally and figuratively to other bidders that the object is more desired by someone else and will push up the price. Snipe bidders also tend to be more aware of overall pricing and have researched the price before the snipe bid taking into consideration both the value of the item, the strength of the seller, and current bids on the item."
The text I've put in bold type explains exactly what the problem is with computer sniping, why it is unfair to other bidders IMHO, and why I object to it. I thought the whole point of eBay bidding was open competition. The sniper is, in effect, a "hidden" bidder, whose existence and bid is only revealed once he/she has won. He/she doesn't want to participate in the bidding process with others in the "room", so to speak, but to circumvent it.
Now this may also be true of a "human" last-second sniper with his finger on the button, but I doubt he would be able to place several bids in the last millisecond in the event one of the existing bidders has an earlier reserve bid in place. And, honestly, if a bidder knows his stuff and has done his research, regardless of time zone, etc., he can decide on a price, make his best and highest bid early and count on his reserve bid to win the item.
Your experience may be somewhat different from mine because of the category of item involved. I completely disagree with your statement that sniping keeps bids low. That certainly hasn't been my experience; if anything it's been exactly the opposite.
In one series of auctions I can recall that took place over about a 2-week period, a computerized sniper who grabbed the first item more or less at market value set off a frenzy of bidding for the rest. Even though the bids had gone far beyond a reasonable value for the remaining items, more than twice normal (I was well aware of the market value of these particular items), the sniper won them all, every single one of them. The seller must have been pleased at the windfall, but there was nothing honest or fun about it for any of the other bidders.
This wasn't the result of diligence and research, just greed and secretiveness. There was, I'm certain, more to that particular sniping than simply plugging a maximum bid into the computer programme. You may disagree, but I am convinced there are sophisticated programmes out there that can hack into eBay's auction data. Toward the end of the series mentioned, I bid on one item as a "test" -- I placed a bid early that was quite high, then increased that bid within the last 3 or 4 seconds of the auction to roughly 3 times the other bids. The sniper won, at about the 0.5 second mark. How could that sniper possibly have known in advance what my last-second bid was going to be, at least in enough time to have set a maximum bid, and not only match my bid, but beat it by exactly the auction "step" amount? To me, that smacks of cheating.
The other side of the coin is that sniping programmes are not available to every bidder -- imagine what a mess eBay would be if they were!! Unfortunately it seems to me that the people most apt to defend computerized sniping are those who have access to it (not everyone is so technically competent). I'm not exactly techno-illiterate, but I wouldn't know how or where to find a sniping programme. And I wouldn't use it if I did -- it's not illegal on eBay, but it confers an unfair advantage.
Your suggestion about "popcorn" bidding being a possible solution says to me that you recognize the inherent unfairness of computerized sniping. This would in fact probably be a good way to level the playing field and allow other bidders at least a last chance to outbid a sniping computer.
As I said, computerized sniping, especially of the more sophisticated variety, left a sour taste in my mouth. It was exactly because snipers were driving up prices, particularly of serial auction listings in sought-after categories (like antiques and collectibles) that I gave up bidding on them -- what was the point of continuing if no matter what bid was placed, that bid would be outdone by a machine?
EBay's auction mechanism is (again IMHO), a broken machine, likely in part because there are many disgusted buyers such as the OP who are put off and will go elsewhere or look for BIN items at reasonable market prices. EBay is doubtless well aware of this, as they've been encouraging and supporting more of an eCommerce BIN/store paradigm for sellers in recent policy changes.
05-13-2013 04:56 PM
How could that sniper possibly have known in advance what my last-second bid was going to be, at least in enough time to have set a maximum bid, and not only match my bid, but beat it by exactly the auction "step" amount? To me, that smacks of cheating.
The sniping program does not know what your bid is but ebay does know so they put the bid up to the next increment..just like they would have done with your bid. The maximum bid was likely set by the bidder long before the auction was over. It is basically the same as if you had set a maximum bid earlier in the auction..the only difference is that the sniping bid would not show up until the end..
I don't bid in a lot of auctions but I have used a sniping program a few times simply because I do like to bid near the end but I would usually forget that the auction was ending.I've won some auctions that way and lost some auctions that way. It all depends on the maximum bid...if I was willing to pay more than other person, I would win.
The other side of the coin is that sniping programmes are not available to every bidder -- imagine what a mess eBay would be if they were!! Unfortunately it seems to me that the people most apt to defend computerized sniping are those who have access to it (not everyone is so technically competent). I'm not exactly techno-illiterate, but I wouldn't know how or where to find a sniping programme.
05-13-2013 04:57 PM
shoot. ...I somehow hit post and I wasn't finished
The other side of the coin is that sniping programmes are not available to every bidder -- imagine what a mess eBay would be if they were!! Unfortunately it seems to me that the people most apt to defend computerized sniping are those who have access to it (not everyone is so technically competent). I'm not exactly techno-illiterate, but I wouldn't know how or where to find a sniping programme.
Seriously if you know how to bid on ebay and how to search on google, you can figure out how to use a sniping program so it is available to everyone. Some choose to use it, some don't.
05-13-2013 07:17 PM
One of the main actual purposes of a snipping service.
You can "place" your max bid at any time without actually committing. If before the auction ends and before your snip is placed you can change your mind about your max bid or if you even want the item and cancel your snipe.
I you place an eBay proxy bid you can't retract it if there is less than 12 hours remaining.
This is where some NBP's happen, buyer places a bid on day 4 of a 7 day listing, 6 hours before the Auction ends they find the same item much cheaper, they buy that one but can't retract their bid on the first one.
The result, they have now committed to two of the same item, they will probably pay for the cheaper one and let the more expensive (or lesser quality etc.) end up as unpaid.
05-13-2013 11:17 PM
Obviously I'm in the minority on this topic then. Maybe it's because I've always been on the (sometimes rather sad) receiving end of computerized sniping, not on the using end.
Quite frankly, I've never searched for sniping programmes, wouldn't know which ones to trust if I found one even if I were prepared to make use of it. If the programmes are so ubiquitous and easy to use, why does anyone make an open bid anymore? As a thought experiment: assuming for the moment everyone used computerized sniping, presumably there would be no actual human bidders showing on eBay auctions - how would that work?
For me, there's something about computerized sniping that "just doesn't seem quite cricket". Sorry. 😐
05-14-2013 08:42 AM
Obviously I'm in the minority on this topic then. Maybe it's because I've always been on the (sometimes rather sad) receiving end of computerized sniping, not on the using end.
Quite frankly, I've never searched for sniping programmes, wouldn't know which ones to trust if I found one even if I were prepared to make use of it. If the programmes are so ubiquitous and easy to use, why does anyone make an open bid anymore? As a thought experiment: assuming for the moment everyone used computerized sniping, presumably there would be no actual human bidders showing on eBay auctions - how would that work?
For me, there's something about computerized sniping that "just doesn't seem quite cricket". Sorry. 😐
I had a long response before but then deleted it. This one is more brief, or it was, but I ramble.
Don't think or worry you are in the minority. It's just that most posters here have been around and have an opinion. There are many who won't voice what you say but are 'on your side'
I use justsnipe. It's available at www.justsnipe.com. You can use their free version or pay for unlimited snipes. It is available to all ebayers.
The reason why everyone doesn't use them is because they don't know about them. They are available, but not everyone knows they can use them.
It always is disappointing when you don't win an auction snipe or no. I get just as disappointed when my snipe bid doesn't win and I realize I should have put in a higher bid.
Again, it's the perception and expectation of having a bid and thinking you will win, when in reality you never were going to. The bids were placed and you had a lower bid. That's it. It appears you lost in the last second, but you actually lost the moment when either you put in your lower bid or the higher bidder put in theirs.
It's true that you may have been led to believe you were going to win because the other bid didn't show, but this can be achieved by a 'person' as well.
This is the same way 'scratch and win' work, by having the appearance of winning or almost winning with 2 out of 3 items or 4 out of 5, etc. but the truth is you win.... or you don't. There is no almost.
I bring that up not to equate the 2 but point out that we all have a personal bias that tricks us into believing or thinking something that is not true. It seems logical to think that you almost won, or was going to win, but in reality you weren't .
I do concede that sniping (or waiting until the last second) conceals the bidders highest bid and by placing a bid early you provide information to the other bidder that they can capitalize on, but that is not a function or advantage of the snipe bid, but a function of the timing of the bid which can be put in automatically or 'in person'
I keep putting 'human' or 'in person' in quotes because there actually are no human bidders, or in person bids. Again, it's imagined structure that puts a line between your human bid and snipe bid. No human actually bids. You place a bid physically on you keyboard which is transmitted electronically to ebay and then recorded. With a snipe bid, you place a bid physically on your keyboard and then the sniping program transmits it electronically to ebay and is then recorded. The only difference is the time of when it's implemented. You could say that the program is something extra, but you have to have a computer, operating system, browser, internet connection, etc. All of which will confer an advantage or disadvantage, which is often very small, but can be significant. For me the connection was a huge disadvantage which caused me to seek out a snipe program as my internet connection was so slow, I couldn't place an accurate bid within 30 seconds of the auction ending, let alone 5 seconds.
There are definitely some advantages to sniping programs, or else people wouldn't use them. You can argue that there is a timing advantage (conceded) but there are advantages to 'human' bidding, such as 'nibbling' or placing numerous small bids to find out where other bidders are at, then waiting to an appropriate time and putting your final bid with a premium (if you want the item). This can often outbid sniping programs because many buyers, like me, place a low bid and walk away.
Ultimately though, to summarize, the highest bid wins.
03-20-2014 09:38 PM
I think lately some of the bidders are very very aggressive when it comes to bidding. I think E Bay should really look into cases when someone who increase the amount of their bids by purpose so they can get the item. When I bid from some seller's website. I do notice certain individuals have a pattern of snipping. Even if you max out your bid there are no guarantees. E Bay should start looking into this because I think some of those bidders are not legimate and the may be fraud involved with these people. Sometimes, the buyer get another person like their friend or family member to jack up the bid to increase their value of the item too.
03-20-2014 09:43 PM
I agree that E Bay should find a way to get rid of snipping once in for all. In fact, I will go as far as banning them.
03-20-2014 11:25 PM
I don't know how sniping programmes work because I don't use them and so can't speak to the issues raised by rose-dee.
However, I stand by my comment that I don't think it's unfair to place a bid in the dying seconds of an auction and, until this thread began, I had no idea that this was such a controversial subject. I view it as an approach that requires a little bit of skill and experience, thus making it challenging. And I am very much invested in the item since I do watch it for a few days but, in many cases, make my final decison as to whether I want it or not when the auction is closing. Maybe something more interesting will have come along in the meantime.
This is exactly the way I feel about auctions and sniping and I have never used a sniping programme.
I found that if I bid on an auction early and placed my maximum bid I was usually outbid by a few cents. That irked me much more than being sniped by someone at the last minute. I learned to research how much the items usually sold for and how that compared with the BIN price. If I was willing to pay the full amount I would put my highest bid near the BIN price, but usually in the last few seconds of an auction. There might be the same number of bidders but I would get it for a lower price. If not I would wait until it was relisted and bid again. If I wanted it badly enough I would use the BIN. I also watched items for a few days, at least, before bidding.
That wouldn't work for rare or OOAK items like collectibles, but it works well for items that are usually relisted.
When all is said and done, everyone has equal opportunity to bid at any time during the duration of the auction. What would be the alternative to allowing sniping?....cutting off bidding at an earlier point?....which would end up being the same thing.
03-20-2014 11:43 PM
I am a regular at a local auction house.... and people do ask questions.
My recommendation to someone new to a live auction is get atleast one bid in early.... That way the auctioneer will keep looking back at you to see if you want to bid again.
Even a live auctioneer can miss a last minute bid if it is not very vocally and very directly at the auctioneer.
03-21-2014 01:37 AM - edited 03-21-2014 01:38 AM
@westernstargifts wrote:
When all is said and done, everyone has equal opportunity to bid at any time during the duration of the auction. What would be the alternative to allowing sniping?....cutting off bidding at an earlier point?....which would end up being the same thing.
I'm thinking in re-reading this thread that some posters may have misunderstood my reference to "sniping". I wasn't referring to last-minute bids, or even last-second bids placed by people through sniping services, but the sort of bizarre bids zapped in at the last possible millisecond that somehow manage to know the bids of others -- including extremely high proxy bids.
As I understand it, sniping services are essentially proxy bids without the hassles involved in eBay proxy bids, as 'recped' pointed out. That's just as legitimate as someone with a fast connection and a finger on the button at the last second, or someone who places a proxy bid in the usual way and wins. No, the experiences I mentioned were quite different. And you make a good point -- all of them occurred on OOAK collectibles.
I did a lot of bidding on eBay for several years before I began selling, and often got excellent items by swooping in at the last moment, after watching the bidding for a few days. Often I knew the likely end value well enough to place proxy bids and win. I have nothing against strategic bidding!
Yet, every so often a weird phantom appears on particularly desirable items. It seems as if whatever programme is behind these last-millisecond bids is able to read the changing values as auctions progress and adjust automatically.
As I mentioned earlier, this happened during one series of auctions of similar articles over the course of several hours that I recall, in which the "sniping programme" won every item, even on a few on which I'd placed a very aggressive last-moment bid.
I finally took the risk of conducting a "test" on one of the last items in the series by placing a bid during the final few seconds that was several times higher than what the previous items had sold for, and frankly was 3 or 4 times higher than anyone in their right mind would pay for such an item. The sniping programme appeared, as usual, in the last fraction of a second, and it won.
To my mind, it would have been impossible for anyone placing a proxy bid through a sniping service to have known that I was going to up the ante by many times. That is, unless it was a person with unlimited funds who had set ridiculously high proxy bids and didn't care what they paid (as long as they got all the items), or a programme that was able to hack into eBay's bidding system and read the data -- I don't know why this isn't possible, since so many other sites are hacked into these days.
In other words, the programme behind that final bid was able to recognize my own bizarre last-second bid, and adjust its bidding by many times accordingly, all within less than 3 seconds. My only consolation was that whoever was behind all that bidding overpaid on every item in the series, including paying an outrageously, laughably high price for the second last item that constituted my "test".
So I make a distinction between ordinary sniping (or sniping services) - which may be annoying to some, but can be useful -- and "dirty sniping" of the kind I've described, which was different in character from any of the usual sniping I'd run into. The trouble is, there wasn't (and will never be) any way of proving it or reporting it to eBay.
At any rate, the point I was making originally was that those "all-knowing phantoms" finally soured me on auctions in the categories I was interested in, and I'm sure put off many other buyers, whether new or not. It's no wonder eBay says the majority of items are now listed as BIN -- that's what buyers prefer. Auctions still have their place, but I think it's dwindling.
Let's face it, wherever there are systems, there are going to be people who think up ways of circumventing and cheating. It's going to be hard to convince me that there aren't people capable of breaking into eBay's auction technology and making money by selling such services to others.