Does the item description protect the seller?

[dyat]

Wow, I didn't realize eBay had its own community forum.

Found it through another post after searching Google about high risk countries.

Hi everyone 🙂

I was wondering if anyone can clarify something for me.
My understanding has always been that a seller can state terms in their item descriptions and that bidding/buying is an implicit agreement to those terms (ie, bidders should be reading the full description) and that ultimately protects the seller should a buyer not comply with those terms.

For example...

I do not block specific countries from bidding.

I am aware that there are some high risk countries, but I am having trouble finding a definitive list, and being a Canadian who sometimes can't buy things from the US, I know I hate being limited by my geographical location and would prefer to keep options open for people rather than blocking countries entirely. At the same time, I want to protect myself and would like to reserve the right to insist on tracked shipping should I feel like a country in question is high risk.

To that end, when listing the item I check the checkboxes corresponding to the countries I ship to, and in the shipping section of my item descriptions I list those countries. I also state that I may be willing to ship to other countries, provided the potential buyer messages me first for approval. This way I can try to determine if there are any risks associated with that country, and if it appears so, I can let them know how expensive tracked shipping will be. It also means (I think) that I have right of refusal should a person from a high-risk country win an auction without messaging me first.

But on the post I came here from, the poster suggested that if a seller does not block the countries and then refuses to ship an item, the buyer could file an "item not received" claim. Because the post is in response to an entirely different question, I decided I'd prefer to start a new thread. (But the post I am referring to is here.)

So... is a seller protected by the terms they lay out in their item description?

Or in the case of shipping, is the seller only protected if they block countries explicitly?

(and while we're at it.... if anyone knows of any list of high risk countries I could refer to, I'd super appreciate it... I've been trying on Google but can't seem to find anything.)

Thanks 🙂

[theundercutter]

Here are some countries

ALSO, the description does not protect you

Guatemala, Fiji, Vatican City State, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Guadeloupe, Sierra Leone, Marshall Islands, Nauru, Wallis and Futuna, French Guiana, Gambia, El Salvador, Micronesia, Dominican Republic, Mayotte, Cameroon, Guyana, Taiwan, Macau, Suriname, Tonga, Kenya, Argentina, New Caledonia, San Marino, Guinea-Bissau, Togo, Senegal, Eritrea, Armenia, Bhutan, Saint Kitts-Nevis, Morocco, Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas), Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Burundi, Iraq, Equatorial Guinea, Mauritania, Belize, Aruba, Congo, Democratic Republic of the, Western Sahara, Congo, Republic of the, American Samoa, Cook Islands, Comoros, United States, Liechtenstein, Kuwait, Bermuda, Benin, Algeria, Montserrat, Korea, South, Zambia, Somalia, Antigua and Barbuda, Vanuatu, Swaziland, Italy, Ethiopia, Guernsey, Monaco, Laos, Pakistan, Tanzania, Niger, Panama, Burkina Faso, Jersey, Ghana, Reunion, Djibouti, Cape Verde Islands, China, Martinique, Mali, Moldova, Botswana, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Madagascar, Tajikistan, Cayman Islands, Saint Helena, Rwanda, Liberia, Seychelles, Austria, Gibraltar, Sri Lanka, Libya, Nigeria, Lesotho, Central African Republic, Gabon Republic, Zimbabwe, Saint Lucia, Guinea, Jordan, Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), British Virgin Islands, Turks and Caicos Islands, Kiribati, Chad, Turkmenistan, Andorra, Grenada, Haiti, India, Afghanistan, Mongolia, Netherlands Antilles, Nepal, Svalbard and Jan Mayen, Dominica, Palau, Malawi, Nicaragua, Angola, Tunisia, Uganda, Western Samoa, Barbados, Tuvalu, Jamaica, Egypt, Mozambique, Namibia, Niue, Honduras

[reallynicestamps]

I am aware that there are some high risk countries, but I am having trouble finding a definitive list,

There probably isn't a definitive list, but some posters use the 'will not insure' list posted by the company shipinsurance (I'm never sure that is the correct name, because I use a different company for insurance.)

Even there, I'm happy to ship to Russia and the former Soviet republics, because I mostly sell used copies of "Robert's Rules of Order " there. Those buyers strike me as a pretty good risk.

And sometimes the problem is the national postal or customs system while the customers are fine, and sometimes it's the customers but not the nation. (I've had  problems with French and Israeli customers from time to time.)

If you want to block countries, it would be best to use the specific list that is an option on the Sell Your Item form. and in Seller Preferences.

Most of the Terms of Sale in a description can be overridden by Paypal or eBay standards and policies.

[mr.elmwood]

I sent three parcels off in December where I figured I was just waving bye-bye to money: Israel, Russia, Poland. No problems. Mexico I am 0 for 2. Chile wasn't working well either.

I do not use tracking or insurance.

Description is just words on a page with variable interpretations: "Well, what I meant was ...."

[mr.elmwood]

FYI. That pink on purple is very hard to read.

[reallynicestamps · Accepted solution]

I work full time and live a long walk from the post office so I generally ship items out once a week on Tuesday or Wednesday (giving the winning bidder time to pay since my auctions end on Sunday). If you win an item with Buy It Now on a different day and you need it sooner just contact me, I'm happy to work something out.

I will ship to Canada, USA, UK, France, Australia and Japan. For those in other countries please contact me first to discuss shipping rates - they can be expensive. Apologies if shipping costs seem high - Canada Post is not cheap, and as an individual I have to pay retail prices for packing supplies.

Please keep in mind that I am not a business, just a former student trying to make some extra cash to help with my loans 🙂 As such, I cannot take responsibility for items once they are mailed. Please choose a tracked option if you have any concerns - untracked shipping is at your own risk.

Your customer doesn't care.

If you print your shipping labels through Paypal, you can drop your sold items into the nearest post box. For a while, I was dropping my parcels at my Department's mail room. The clerks found the destinations fascinating.

As such, I cannot take responsibility for items once they are mailed. Please choose a tracked option if you have any concerns - untracked shipping is at your own risk.

Nope.

You are responsible for the items you sell until your customer recieves them. At your risk. The customer paid and the customer must recieve.

When you ship, you are subcontracting your responsibility to the post office. They are responsible to you, but you remain responsible to your customer.

I would suggest that you change this to... actually I would drop the whole thing.

On the Sell Your Item form enter One or Two Day shipping. This refers to business days so it is exactly what you are saying about your auctions. And my suggestion about PP labels and corner mailboxes deals with the rest.

You should not apologize for postal rates. If they are too high, the customer will not bid. If you sound nervous, you will attract bullies.

For shipping supplies, check out both ULine and Cheswick as well as eBay sellers. I buy all my poly envelopes here. They also leave me feedback.

You can Block countries you do not want to ship to.  You can Report bidders from countries you do not want to ship to as Unwanted Bidders. You can Block annoying members from bidding. (Check Seller Preferences.)

If you are worried about false claims of non-delivery, do not allow buyers to choose an untracked service.

You can add a tiny amount to every asking price as a self-insurance premium against fraudulent claims.

And honey, let an old lady tell you something. Don't apologize. Don't be a 'nice girl'. Be honest and upright and treat others as adults and expect to be treated as an adult yourself. We women are taught to be nice and helpful. But the first ones we have to help are ourselves.

Mal: If anyone gets nosy, just, you know... shoot 'em.
Zoë: Shoot 'em?
Mal: Politely.

[mr.elmwood]

let an old lady tell you something.

Old ladies have always scared me. They know stuff and do not care. They are dangerous. I would tick-off a gang member before ticking-off an old lady.

My former MIL once said "It is not that we are older and smarter, we just know more stuff". 

Ship once or twice a week? Blame the carrier? Not gonna fly. eBay does not want you selling. They are doing their best to eradicate part time, I will make my own rules, I don't care, you can't make me, sellers.

eBay wants businesses carrying on as businesses.

I read that walk to the PO bit. I about died. You would put that in there? eBay states there are five mailing days a week and expects you to use them.

[femmefan1946]

Remember Monty Python's grannies?

My heros.

Along with the Raging Grannies.

And Malvina Reynolds.

We've been there, done that, got the teeshirt and turned it into a ragrug for the church bazaar.

RAWR! dear.

[rose-dee]

---

@mr.elmwood wrote:

Old ladies have always scared me. They know stuff and do not care. They are dangerous. I would tick-off a gang member before ticking-off an old lady.

---

OK, Mr. E., you got my LOL award for the day.  Doubtless the reason you'd probably risk ticking off a gang member instead of an old lady is that you wouldn't dream of punching out an old lady if push came to shove - right??

However, to respond on a more serious note to the original poster here: 

I agree with 'femmefan's' advice all around, although it may be a bit too succinct and précis-like for a new seller -- like reading an analysis of MacBeth via Coles' Notes if you haven't been thoroughly introduced to the original.  

Three comments I would make are: 

(1) Don't put explanations (especially not regarding your personal situation) in your listings - they're unnecessary and open you up to buyers making assumptions about your experience, and/or misconstruing your policies.  State what your terms are by using eBay's options in the Sell Your Item form, or if the SYI form doesn't have an exact checkbox for what you need, state the information in a factual, simple way in your description.  There is no need to discuss reasons for shipping options, etc. -- set up what you want as shipping on your items. 

(2) This is related to the above point.  Many new sellers seem to regard tracking as something they can insist on buyers paying for, while the truth is that tracking is only for the seller's benefit (some may argue there is no benefit at all).  Be aware that the high price of tracked shipping may offer some comfort, but not always full protection (without Delivery Confirmation), to a seller shipping overseas.  That same high price may turn away a lot of overseas buyers.  So there is a decision to be made on this issue. 

Personally, I limit my shipping to the more stable Western countries and list full price flat rate tracked shipping for anything over about $80 for international destinations (i.e. outside Canada and the U.S.).  My thinking is that if an international buyer sees the cost of shipping and really wants the item, they'll pay for the shipping; otherwise the percentage of international buyers I have really doesn't warrant the risk of non-tracked shipping. 

The downside of course is that you'll have fewer international buyers if shipping is too high.  However, keep in mind that many European countries have a ridiculously low tariff limit on personal imports -- something like $20 -- so buying from Canada or the U.S. is expensive to begin with.  I know some sellers will disagree with this approach, but I can choose to avoid international hassles because the vast majority of my buyers are in the U.S.

(3)  I think you'll find that most of your buyers will be in the U.S. or Canada anyway, so until you've got more experience, my best advice would be to limit your "ship to" list to Canada and the U.S. for now.  Later on you can expand if you're comfortable with the risk and with eBay policies.  It's pretty hard to come up with a definitive list of problem countries, because that concept shifts as political and economic realities shift.  For example, some sellers are currently reporting issues with Germany, which you would think would be a safe bet. 

Best of luck to you, and come back to these boards whenever you need further input!

[pocomocomputing]

Minor note: The European Union member countries generally have a 22 Euro import limit which is about $34 Can or $30 US. The $20 is the Can limit.

[pjcdn2005]

Just to give more info...The UK has a different minimum than other EU countries - 15GBP which is about $27 Cdn.

[dyat]

Well, wow. Quite the range of responses. Thank you, everyone, for taking the time not only to respond but to read through my listings and give me some constructive criticism.

I feel like I come from a time where all eBay selling was more like Craigslist - you actually communicated with your seller/buyer who was another person in a similar situation as yourself - eBay was a hobby, a way to sell some used items and buy things that were hard to find otherwise, everything was an auction, you had to go to the post office to get shipping rates, or send a money order or cheque (or even cash, sometimes!) in the mail and the seller would wait for it to clear before mailing the item, and sellers included friendly little notes in the package. Nobody was running a business off it, or if they were it was small-time and still quite personal.

Back then, you used the item description to lay out terms, because that was the first line of communication with your buyer. They weren't your customer, they were your buyer. it was just way more personal than the faceless megabusiness it is now.

I sold some things back then, and bought some things back then, and then didn't sell anything for a long time. And when I started selling again, suddenly all these things I had been taught to be distrustful of, coming of age in the era where people still used nicknames for email addresses, nobody put their address or contact information online, https wasn't standard practice and using a credit card online was intimidating - suddenly Paypal, automated shipping calculators, etc were the norm, and damned if anyone was going to walk to the post office to buy a money order and then send it and wait for it to arrive before the seller would ship the item. (And now that I am familiar with them, I can't fathom how we all ever did eBay without them.)

But while that is the case for the buyer, I as the seller *am* still walking to the post office to drop off the items (because I don't have a printer, and the post office does), items I package with more care than most of the items I buy are given, items which for some I've hunted around at multiple stores to try to find a box that fits so as to minimize the shipping cost for the buyer. I don't have the benefit of a pick up happening, and I don't have a car. So I guess I just feel like I want to offer people some context as to why the item may not ship out 5 hours after its been paid for, like it might be with a company who has staff and a warehouse.

And I guess I'd like to think that the people I am transacting with are reading the descriptions, and are as willing to be courteous and flexible as I try to be (for the most part, people don't actually have to wait more than 3 days for me to get the item in the mail, and if they do, I apologize and let them know there's a delay and often will do something as a token of appreciation for their understanding, like include some sort of extra or pay the additional cost to expedite the shipping). And maybe I'm lucky, but the people I deal with are usually totally chill. I like adding a personal touch to things; I think given the nature of the items I'm selling (collector's toys from my own past collection), that personal touch is appreciated. People appreciate a backstory when they've been searching forever for a certain doll or whatever, and I appreciate the backstory as to why it's so important to them because these things meant a lot to me, once.

tl;dr - Nonetheless, I will heed all of your advice as best I can, because everything you've all said indicates clearly that my feelings about the purpose of item description no longer accurately reflect eBays feelings about it 🙂

@reallynicestamps, thank you for your encouragement to not be apologetic for things that are beyond my control. Young lady to old, you are right - we do try to please everybody, and I am slowly learning how to turn that boat around. Thank you for your kindness, and also for your no-nonsense truthiness 🙂

And thanks to everyone else for your suggestions. In order to keep this brief I will just say I did read everybody's responses and will think about how to incorporate them while still trying to maintain some semblance of the personal context that I appreciate. Thank you 🙂

[maggiebvintage2010]

Hi dyat, one more piece of advice.  Please get a printer.  You are shipping by Expedited and Tracked services, so by printing PayPal labels you will receive a discount of up to 18% on Expedited and 14% on Tracked.  This will more than pay for your printer in a short time - my recently purchased printer cost me $30.00 and it prints, copies, faxes and scans with very good quality and has a two year warranty.  This also lets you print invoices/packing slips to include in your packages (using Selling Manager), make your own business cards to include, or print out a "personal note" for your buyer.

The types of collectibles you are selling are most likely to sell in Canada, USA, western European countries, Japan and South Korea.  I would suggest you limit your "ship to" countries to these.  Most of your sales will be to the US, and most other countries would only account for a tiny percentage of possible sales - not worth the trouble.  Many potential buyers from countries with questionable mail service use addresses in North America or Europe, have their purchases sent there, and then forwarded to them by companies they know are reliable.

Familiarize yourself with the Canada Post website, and the differences between minimum and maximum dimensions for various services, and well as USPS requirements - they are not the same.  You will find that a wide variety of box sizes fall within the same price parameters.  It is the packing material that makes the most difference to shipping cost.  Find some stores near you that will give you the bubble wrap and air-filled bags they get in their orders.

[mr.elmwood]

My printer paid for itself with postage discounts. i am actual money ahead.

Not having a printer is false economy.

[dyat]

Oh, I do print my labels via Paypal, I just have to physically print them at the post office.

Thanks for the advice. May I ask what brand of printer you got?

Ahh yes, the remailers. They kind of sketch me out because I don't know at which point the item is considered delivered - when it arrives at the remailer or when it arrives at the buyer's address? My intuition would be that if the item arrives at the address you ship it to, your task as seller is complete, but it appears my instinct and eBays actual policies are not entirely in agreement 😕