Payment Disputes and the New $20 Fee

[teenytrinkets]

Yesterday a buyer opened a Payment Dispute in the amount of $12 for a $16.99 item, citing "Not As Described". 3 days after shipping. Without contacting me.

In the dispute, I'm given only two options: to challenge it or refund the buyer.

No option to have the buyer "return".

It appears if we don't refund the disputed amount by the deadline, we are charged a $20 fee! ZERO protection. Even if I'd had tracking!!! (Because, as we know, sellers never win a SNAD claim). This is extortion of the worst kind...

"If a buyer files a payment dispute, and you’re found responsible for the disputed amount, you’ll be charged a $20 dispute fee by eBay. If you accept the payment dispute and issue a refund, eBay will waive the dispute fee, and you’ll be responsible for the refund amount issued to your buyer."

Does anyone have more information about this new fee and how sellers can protect themselves against losing their item, their paid shipping and fees, and the $20 payment dispute fee?!

[ricarmic]

As I recall this is a PAYPAL dispute right?

Have you called PAYPAL directly? That is what I would do.

The fact that it is an "instant" claim, certainly tickles the spider senses. 

It is also very odd that it is not the full amount, it makes one wonder if the person has the item confused with something else from someone else (this has happened to me before).

If you call PAYPAL and let them know the situation, they can see if this person is a "regular" for this kind of thing, especially because of the instant claim, and they may respond because of the other circumstances assuming there are some.

Your circumstance, in terms of protection, is the same as a "false INR" it's something to be covered by our cookie jar insurance (as is the @#$@#%@# $20 dispute/chargeback fee - which isn't new).

Extremely frustrating both in terms of time and $$$ perspectives.

[teenytrinkets]

Because I was forced to switch to Managed Payments, I have no idea if the Payment Dispute is with the buyer's Credit Card, PayPal, Google Pay, Apple Pay or bank account.

My understanding is the $20 fee was introduced last summer. Or maybe no one noticed before the introduction of managed payments because almost everyone used PayPal exclusively?
And since SNAD Chargebacks with Paypal forced the buyers to return the items for a refund at their own expense, the scammy buyers always opted for the eBay SNAD claims. 

So, in other words, ebay has forced sellers into a new realm of scamming, to which they were previously protected by only accepting PayPal as a form of payment.

I think we'll be seeing a lot more Payment Disputes for SNADs....

[ricarmic]

Hmm I'm not yet MP'd but tomorrow I'm taking the plunge and registering, I had to wait 2 days becaues they had to convert my id from a US registration to a Canadian one.

Anyway I thought from the other thread that it was a PAYPAL chargeback.

I think I'd contact eBay with the same information and see if they see if there has been a pattern, they may also act on that. They'll also mabye be able to tell you how the buyer paid and if following up through PAYPAL makes sense? I doubt that the each blames the other has gone away......

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

@ricarmic 

@teenytrinkets 

Curious to know if and when any of these fees showed up on a sellers bank account/CC if they are actually itemized/detailed or just as a straight charge? And if there is any sort of appeal process? Can you call the Bank of Ayden to inquire?

-Lotz

[femmefan1946]

My response to the PP dispute would be a demand that the unwanted item be returned for a full refund.

No partial refunds.

Since it is unlikely that the item has arrived, he cannot return it.

If it actually has arrived, PP makes him pay for the return shipping. With expensive tracking.

So for all the global concerns about how this should be handled, in this specific case, you should be fine.

"I regret you are unhappy with your purchase. Please return it for a full refund."

Or maybe no one noticed before the introduction of managed payments because almost everyone used PayPal exclusively?

No.

It was a Paypal fee for recalcitrant sellers.

If you don't refund voluntarily, and PP has to, they will go after the seller for the refund and charge the $20 fee.

[pjcdn2005]

In MP a payment dispute can be from a credit card or PayPal.  When a cc dispute was filed through PP they also charged a $20 fee if the seller did not refund before the deadline and the seller lost the claim.  A not as described dispute made through a cc did not require a return then either.  But the difference now is that a dispute made through PP is treated the same way so instead of asking the buyer to return when they open a snad through PP, there is no way for the seller to ask for a return,

[teenytrinkets]

From what I've read online, SNAD payment disputes are impossible for sellers to win (and without a return option). I've even seen a story where an eBay SNAD was accepted as a return, the buyer ignored the paid label provided by the seller, then opened a Payment Dispute with their CC, kept the item, and got a refund. The seller lost the item, shipping fees, and was charged the $20 payment dispute fee because they fought it and inevitably lost.

Thankfully my dispute is only for $12, but it's sad to think that ebay can't protect us when the claim is outside ebay. What's the sense of ebay having seller protection at all if the buyer can go outside that protection to scam the seller? THAT is the protection our fees should be paying for...

[teenytrinkets]

I've read that the $20 Payment Dispute fee is charged THROUGH eBay (so MP or PayPal) but not BY Ebay. There's no way to reverse it because eBay tells sellers it's out of their hands, and sellers can't approach the financial institution.

It appears it would never be wise to try to fight a payment dispute for lower value sales...

[ricarmic]

Make sure to report the buyer, I was pleasantly surprised the last time I reported one (for an overseas INR even though it was not tracked) they were immediately unregistered.

I noticed they had some positive negative feedbacks asking if the feedback left meant the item arrived so it appeared to be a repeat offender.

When I reported them I had to pick the option that they reported it as not delivered when tracking showed it was delivered as there were no other closer options, but when I called the CSRs to verify they said yep that's the one to pick if it is not tracked.

Clearly I wasn't the first to report them, but at least the buyer was at least temporarily stopped....

[marnotom!]

I'm taking note of @ricarmic 's observation that it seems strange that the dispute is for about $5 less than the amount for which the item sold.  I'm also noting that usually credit card chargebacks or charge disputes take quite a while to get off the ground and this one appears at first glance to have developed very quickly.

I recall reading on one of these boards a while ago a case where someone got hit with a chargeback--likely of the "unauthorized use" variety but could have been an INR chargeback--that turned out to be part of a series of legitimate chargebacks.  Some process with the credit card issuer had taken hold and created a "net" to catch recent online purchases and this legimate eBay purchase had got caught up in it.

I'm wondering if this purchase from you is the result of the credit card issuer going a little overboard in the customer service department or else some glitch caught this purchase.

I would suggest mustering your courage and giving the buyer a call to see if you can sort things out.  You really don't have anything to lose at this point.  Keep in mind that when it comes to "seller protection" offered by eBay, that "protection" is only against proveable fraud.  There's no way for a credit card processor or eBay to know that an SNAD for an untracked item is legitimate or questionable (tracking showing that the item hadn't been received by the buyer would put this chargeback into "questionable" territory), so they err on the side of customer service.

[femmefan1946 · Accepted solution]

so instead of asking the buyer to return when they open a snad through PP, there is no way for the seller to ask for a return,

Which is an invitation to theft by chargeback.

tyler@ebay 

This is an injustice that Managed Payments has to look into as soon as possible.

Before YouTube is flooded with more videos about how to get free stuff from eBay.

[marnotom!]

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@femmefan1946 wrote:

This is an injustice that Managed Payments has to look into as soon as possible.

---

Wouldn't this have been a possibility under the PayPal system, though?  It would be up to the credit card issuer to decide if an SNAD chargeback warranted a return or not.  Perhaps this credit card issuer wouldn't require a return for an item valued at less than C$20, but would require a return for an item valued at ten times that amount.

[arhirii2007]

So how many more reasons do you all need to stop selling on eBay? Obviously the whole thing has turned into a MASSIVE SCAM that will NEVER be fixed. Ultimately, eBay cannot stay in business if there are no sellers willing to sell anything for buyers to scam them. Let eBay know by voting with your non-existent listings.

[teenytrinkets]

I did end up contacting the buyer. They did indeed get the item (in 3 days!!!) were first upset they didn't get a box. I erroneously selected "with box" instead of "without box" for a mascara (even though it was pictured without a box). They then accused me of not selling it New because it wasn't sealed (which was never claimed in the listing). Most mascara comes unsealed. They then questioned It's authenticity. Then suggested I could easily use it and then refill with "cheaper" liquid. It's a $16 mascara. Sigh... I sell dozens of mascaras every year. Anyway, I provided proof of purchase (which included multiples, without the box), which is the only way I have to prove condition and authenticity. No answer as to why the dispute is for $4.99 less. I'm doubting anything will come of this communication, as suspected, only to frustrate me further. I'll just wait the 5 days and then refund.

[teenytrinkets]

I have seen multiple accounts online of VERY high valued items (over $1000) being handled in the same way as my $16.99 item was handled in a Payment Dispute. No option to return. Only provide proof, with one file attachment and no other means of defense. 

It's true that a credit card dispute could have been filed THROUGH PayPal before MP, but we were always protected BY PayPal. Ebay takes a hands-off approach, which is exactly what was intended by MP all along...

[teenytrinkets]

"so instead of asking the buyer to return when they open a snad through PP, there is no way for the seller to ask for a return,
Which is an invitation to theft by chargeback.
tyler@ebay 
This is an injustice that Managed Payments has to look into as soon as possible.

Before YouTube is flooded with more videos about how to get free stuff from eBay."

@femmefan1946
You've hit the nail on the head with this assessment of the situation.

In my case, the buyer wasn't even given the option to return their purchase. Because of the timing of the dispute, it had to through as a payment dispute. But with no PayPal to back us up and facilitate a return, there is no hope of winning or getting the item back. And Ebay led my buyer down this exact path...

[loc2blue]

Yes the word is forced ,''not asked, not recommended, not suggested , not pribed,    ''FORCED'' I called Ebay about this ''They told me they were also ''forced'' to make us managed payers --------CANADA WECOME TO COMMUNISIM as THOSE PEOPLE ALSO did not asked or pleed --they forced you to do everything they wanted you to do , and for those of you who might be saying I dont know what I am talking about I lived through COMMUNISIM those people do not ask you to do things they ''force'' you to ,,So EBAY if you were forced to leave Pay Pal WHY NOT GIVE US BACK OUR OPTION TO EXCEPT ---CASH , MONEY ORDER  ETC ...''OH you want to handle our cash flow????? understand CAPITANOS, so now the rest of you who are not use to this , do not complain just bend over and take it ,,THAT IS ALL WE CAN DO ,,,,BEST REGARDS TO EVERY BODY WELCOME TO THE  NEW INVASION

[pjcdn2005]

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@teenytrinkets wrote:

 

It's true that a credit card dispute could have been filed THROUGH PayPal before MP, but we were always protected BY PayPal. Ebay takes a hands-off approach, which is exactly what was intended by MP all along...

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 There is no such thing as a credit card dispute  being filed through Paypal.  Credit card disputes are filed with the credit card company, not Paypal. If a buyer filed a snad through their cc, Paypal would handle that type of claim because they were the payment provider but they could not require a return for a cc snad claim and there was no way for them to protect the seller if the card company ruled in favour of the buyer. 

The only time we were protected with a credit card dispute by Paypal is if the claim was for unauthorized use and in that situation, we were protected if we could claim proof of shipping or delivery.

MP protects us for credit card disputes for 'charge not recognized' if we can show proof of shipping.

The difference now is if the claim is filed through Paypal..MP treats it  the same way that Paypal treated credit card claims.

[marnotom!]

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@teenytrinkets wrote:

I have seen multiple accounts online of VERY high valued items (over $1000) being handled in the same way as my $16.99 item was handled in a Payment Dispute. No option to return. Only provide proof, with one file attachment and no other means of defense. 

It's true that a credit card dispute could have been filed THROUGH PayPal before MP, but we were always protected BY PayPal. Ebay takes a hands-off approach, which is exactly what was intended by MP all along...

---

Hate to break it to you, but to add to @pjcdn2005's clarification about credit card disputes "through PayPal" there's this little thing about PayPal not offering seller protection against SNAD chargebacks (charge disputes), which is what you're looking at:

https://www.paypal.com/us/brc/article/seller-protection

Your buyer does sound like a flake, though, and probably best belongs on your BBL.  I'm wondering if she filed a chargeback/charge dispute with her card issuer rather than go through eBay (or PayPal) because she's resorted to the MBG a few too many times for questionable reasons.