eBay

teenytrinkets · ‎06-05-2021

Yesterday a buyer opened a Payment Dispute in the amount of $12 for a $16.99 item, citing "Not As Described". 3 days after shipping. Without contacting me.

In the dispute, I'm given only two options: to challenge it or refund the buyer.

No option to have the buyer "return".

It appears if we don't refund the disputed amount by the deadline, we are charged a $20 fee! ZERO protection. Even if I'd had tracking!!! (Because, as we know, sellers never win a SNAD claim). This is extortion of the worst kind...

"If a buyer files a payment dispute, and you’re found responsible for the disputed amount, you’ll be charged a $20 dispute fee by eBay. If you accept the payment dispute and issue a refund, eBay will waive the dispute fee, and you’ll be responsible for the refund amount issued to your buyer."

Does anyone have more information about this new fee and how sellers can protect themselves against losing their item, their paid shipping and fees, and the $20 payment dispute fee?!

marnotom! · ‎06-08-2021

Chargebacks/credit card charge disputes are rare on eBay and are mostly beatable as long as sellers follow eBay (or PayPal’s) seller protection guidelines.

SNAD chargebacks, such as the one @teenytrinkets was hit by, are the exception and a two-step verification process will do nothing to prevent them.

intimewithmusic · ‎06-09-2021

@marnotom! wrote:
Chargebacks/credit card charge disputes are rare on eBay and are mostly beatable as long as sellers follow eBay (or PayPal’s) seller protection guidelines.

SNAD chargebacks, such as the one @teenytrinkets was hit by, are the exception and a two-step verification process will do nothing to prevent them.

Hi @marnotom! Please go back and read what I said. I suggested a two step verification process at checkout for items over a threshold of higher value would allow eBay to bypass the credit card chargebacks. Obviously if there was a veri code sent to the purchaser's phone unless the phone was also stolen or lost together with the card, and the phone wasn't pass protected then the credit card holder could not file for chargeback. the problem would stop before it even got to the credit card company. I did not suggest that for tinytrinkets $12 claim. I said items over a threshold of higher value

I'm putting out ideas to help solve things.

When you say "Chargebacks/credit card charge disputes are rare on eBay" where is that coming from? I can't seem to find a single item you have for sale.

This is an post MP growing problem. Are you an active seller on Managed Payments? Are you familiar with how Adyen operates ? Do you know that hundreds of sellers are reporting not just unfair chargebacks? Do you know that since last month some buyers figured out they can file claims for refunds AND , after the fact, instigate a chargeback with the credit card company to attempt a double refund that the seller has to dispute on two fronts?

If you're advice comes from first hand MP sales experience in the last 6 months I look forward to your opinon. Please send me to a link to your store so I can see what you sell and where you're market is.

If you're selling high value items to the USA and Internationally you already know it's much easier to instigate a chargeback in other countries. You know that items of value over $750 require signatures on delivery. You know that proof of delivery is required in a dispute. You know Sellers must move fast when a buyer files a dispute. Given all of that anyone can fake a signature and Sellers aren't just being charged for the full value of the iten and the shipping but also dinged $20 by eBay for eBay's trouble.

So to be clear this is what I said in response to teenytrinkets:

Purchases over a specific amount should require two step verification at check out with buyers. That way eBay -Adyen completely over rides this Theft By Chargeback problem. This has become the norm with most online companies including GoDaddy. Two step verification on larger sales would enhance both the buyer and seller experience through the security feature. Buyers who've had their card stolen wouldn't {couldn't}end up disputing eBay charges.

What is it you sell?

Thank you.

IT

intimewithmusic · ‎06-09-2021

What you are saying is fake news.

"This is nothing to do with eBay's changeover to Managed Payments. This situation would have unfolded pretty much the same way under the old PayPal-supported payment process."

No this is misleading. Adyen (the processor) has a unique business relationship (contracts) with the payment methods (card companies and digital payment services) Adyen also has a unique business relationship (contract) with eBay. How chargebacks are handled is a component of those contracts.

PayPal is simply an alternative payment method now. It is no longer a processor. PayPal's contracts with payment method services were unique to PayPal and as a service provider were defined with eBay. That is finished (or about to finish).

For those sellers who have dealt with PayPal by email or on the telephone as I have I ask, How many of you have talked to Adyen on the phone? I'd like to hear how that went. Actually I think I know...

You're comparing apples with oranges. As a long time retailer I had switchovers with point of sale terminals and their attached payment processors. IE: Global Payments. Processing can go from fantastic to the sewer with a change.

The difference here is that Sellers define eBay. They will force Adyen to change the deal made with payment services or eBay will have to absorb the loss or change things at the Checkout.

reallynicestamps · ‎06-09-2021

Marnotom! prefers to use a Posting ID rather than have his selling or buying accounts in play.

This is not uncommon with Boardies, more so in the USA where posters have had their accounts destroyed by vengeful or mischievous members who disliked their advice.

That his account has been around since 2004 should give you some idea of his background.

intimewithmusic · ‎06-09-2021

Hi reallynicestamps

I'm not sure why you posted this without attaching it to my post . No matter I got it.

"Boardies" ? I mean no disrespect to any posters. I don't know what a"Boardie" is.

Seller Central is (or should be) where Sellers (both new and experienced) depend on brand new shiny current advice (not fake news, not "what was once was" ideologies) suggested by respected inactive sellers.

This is not a coffee shop. It's where people learn how to generate income. No one here is playing Monopoly. They want to get their teeth fixed. These are businesses managed by folks depending on extra income to supplement their pensions.

I personally never came to Seller Central to become a "Boardie". Seller Central to me is a place to seek current and competent advice from "SELLERS" which is the key word in Seller Central. That kind of advice can only come from sellers who are active and successful on eBay as of TODAY.

Canada Cafe is a great place for "The Good Old Days" but Seller Central is no place for it. New Sellers who arrive need up to date current advice to sell so they may be able to pay for new teeth.

Seller Central is not "Boardies Central".

ITWM

marnotom! · ‎06-09-2021

I still can't see how a two-step verification process would help with SNAD chargebacks.

I did a search for "SNAD chargebacks" on the eBay.com discussion boards and didn't come up with many recent results, and those discussions that did come up weren't very lengthy ones. That doesn't mean that chargebacks don't occur, but I don't think they occur with any degree of regularity for most sellers unless they're selling high-risk items. A good business plan with "cookie jar insurance" that factors in some shrinkage, just like what a brick and mortar retailer would have, should take the sting out of the rare undefendable chargeback.

I do agree that eBay should be requiring returns of items that are the subject of an SNAD chargeback as VISA and MasterCard do require that for those sorts of chargebacks (at least in the US), although that process is also open to buyer abuse and additional support may be required that eBay is unwilling or unable to provide unless sellers are willing to pay for it in the form of higher fees.

reallynicestamps · ‎06-09-2021

@intimewithmusic

Boardies are just us ~~busybodies~~ members who both socialize on the boards and try to give a nuanced explanation of rules and situations to upset and often panicked members who need a one off explanation of what has happened to them.

There are about a dozen I would class as Boardies, me being two of them. There are about 30 constant posters on the dotCOM Boards.

No all Boardies like eBay very much . Even those of us who generally try to put a positive or at least dispassionate spin on eBay's rules, changes, stubborness, erratic customer service, and more bloody changes, can get miffed with the company.

On the whole, I believe we try to be calm voices giving support and advice-- and sometimes Tough Love.

tyler@ebay · ‎06-09-2021

@teenytrinkets wrote:

tyler@ebay

"If the dispute has been closed by the buyer, CS should be able to manually release the funds if they're able to confirm with the financial institution that the dispute has been closed. The best course of action is to request a call back from a payments-trained teammate so they can review. "

Incorrect. I already spoke to a payments trained rep at Ebay regarding my buyer closing the dispute. They said they cannot release the funds until the financial institution notifies Ebay of the cancelation. That can still take up to 90 days. The rep said they CANNOT release the funds manually. And they CANNOT confirm manually with the financial institution that the dispute was closed. These are all handled automatically by ebay's payment system. And can take up to 90 days.

Funny how the payment disputes and the holding of funds go through in 2.2 seconds - I have to respond in 3 days, but everything else takes up 90 days... sigh...

Hi @teenytrinkets - I'm glad you were able to get in touch with a payments trained teammate. It sounds like they've confirmed they could release funds once the financial institution confirms the dispute is cancelled. And while that can take up to 90 days, I'll keep my fingers crossed that it's sooner than that.

Thanks!

Tyler,

pjcdn2005 · ‎06-09-2021

As far as I know marnatom used to sell here with his wife years ago but does not sell now. And although I do disagree with him at times, he has kept up with a lot of the Manage Payment info but like myself, doesn't have first hand knowledge of it because he isn't using it.

Although my eye sight is not as good as it used to be, I have a really hard time reading your posts with the huge print...it's partly a psychological thing because it makes me feel like I'm being shouted at but it's also just really difficult for me to read. I'm mentioning that because if I missed something that you wrote, that may be why.

Anyway....I'm not familiar with the two step verification process but the impression I get is that would only affect unauthorized use charges or didn't recognize the charge claims. The majority of payment dispute claims that I've read about in MP are 'didn't recognize the charge' and in those cases, ebay covers the seller as long as they show delivery confirmation to the payment zip/postal code. Paypal used the term unauthorized charge for those types of charges and handled them in a similar way. But I've read that ebay handles an unauthorized charge...when a buyer says the card was used without their permission..in a different way so that sellers aren't covered in that case. I can't confirm that but if it is true, then sellers would benefit with a two step verification system if that mean that buyers couldn't say the use of their card was unauthorized.

Are you saying that you've heard that unauthorized use claims is what is causing the majority of the problems in MP chargebacks? I think that a bigger problem is with snad charges as in the op's case and I don't see how a 2 step verification system would help a seller with a snad. Just because the credit card can confirm that a card wasn't used fraudently doesnt mean that they are going to disallow a snad claim? Am I missing something there?

teenytrinkets · ‎06-09-2021

@marnotom!

"I did a search for "SNAD chargebacks" on the eBay.com discussion boards and didn't come up with many recent results, and those discussions that did come up weren't very lengthy ones. That doesn't mean that chargebacks don't occur, but I don't think they occur with any degree of regularity for most sellers unless they're selling high-risk items."

Take my word for it - there are a TON of posts about Payment Disputes for SNAD, and a boatload of other reasons. There's been a lot of YouTube videos posted by the popular resellers, as well.

Most notably one that invloved a Payment Dispute (Chargeback) with the reason "Other" - and the seller LOST! HTF does THAT happen?

The "Double Dispute" that Intimewithmusic mentioned has seemingly become quite popular with the scammers.

And here's the latest scam: the buyer uses a credit card belonging to someone at a different address. Then the credit card holder files a dispute (charge not recognized) and since the item wasn't sent to the card holder's address, they win the case and the buyer gets the item for free. As I recall, PayPal offered seller protection for us, but Ebay takes the "hands off" approach when it comes to the credit card dispute decision.

While I agree that chargebacks aren't new to MP, they're popping up more now and harder to win because of the disassociation between Ebay and Adyen, and no longer having that extra layer of protection that PayPal provided. The scammer buyers catch wind of these new weaknesses, and then the problem becomes exponential.

Seems like sellers now using MP may end up with an empty cookie jar...

intimewithmusic · ‎06-09-2021

Thanks for the clarity "Nice". I hope you don't mind me calling you Nice. It's much easier to type than reallynicestamps and then of course the monomer fits. You are nice.

I figured out what you meant by "Boardies". In my time in Community I trusted everyone to be active Sellers. It is dissapointing to find out that some of the advisors are talking out of their hats.

We've been talking about internet crime. IT crime and payment processing isn't a subject anyone who isn't in the trenches has knowledge of. The issue includes the transfer of responsibilty onto Sellers by some of the world's largest financial organizations.

Inviting Boardies, who aren't in the trenches to offer advice about internet crime and payment processing would be pretty much be the same as inviting me to advise you how to play chess. Boy would you lose.

I mean no disrespect to retired Sellers wanting to help. As I said "Seller Central" should not be a coffee shop. It should be a place where Sellers out in the trenches who are navigating technology and the horrific amount of change being hurled by eBay are willing to help other Sellers. I know you do that Nice. You have helped me. Thank you.

Now go to the top of this very page. Click "Discussions". You will find a long list of Sellers in trouble and desperation because of what I just said. They depend on eBay to pay their bills. They're having difficulty navigating the storm eBay lashed out. They came to Seller Central seeking knowledge and up to date, experienced advice. When I find out veterans who aren't able to help but are dishing out fake news on serious topics like internet crime it ruffles my feathers. If you do not know chess stay out of the game.

Community Toxicity Has The Potential To Kill Christmas

I sent Tyler a letter about the intense toxicity ebay labels, managed payments, chargebacks and item specifics are causing in Community. Sellers need to be positive and creative. I've been part of many successful sales teams my entire life. Nothing kills Christmas like a negative sales force. If I was running a team I'd keep them of eBay Community.

With respect to "Theft By Chargeback".

As I said Adyen has contracts will payment services and contracts with eBay. All eBay has to do is add a Shipping Rule in settings or include a feature in the listing form much like "Make Offer" that has a facility to automatically decline an offer below a certain amount. . The Seller sets the threshold amount.

After doing that in the listing, the buyer is advised at checkout he/she will encounter two step verification. Before the sale is done the Buyer needs to return the veri code when eBay pings his phone.

eBay could decide a minimum $100 if they want. The Seller could decide what items (if any) they would like a veri code sent for. I for one am not going to risk losing an irreplaceable $500 ancient antique cymbal, shipping, FV fees and sucking up a $20 "tip" to for their "good service" because of a credit card chargeback.

As eBay Sellers we all have come up with numerous "workarounds". this is my workaround for eBay. If they don't do something like this then Sellers will put them in a postion to pay the "ransom" to crooked buyers for theft by chargeback. If that happens eBay will raise Final Value Fees.

I want to thank you Really Nice. (That fit's you better than simply Nice) I'm going off Community. For me personally it's too toxic. My aged friends in the music industry have been put out of work and cripled by Covid. They are asking me to help them liquidate so I'm out of here.

I would like to thank all Sellers on Seller Central who are actively in the trenchs selling for the help. Finally I'd like to point out folks who come here for advice really do need quality help. I'm in that boat being a musician with a blind diabetic dog. eBay can be fun but it's not a game.

Have a great summer! Let's hope after the toxicity clears we all have a great 4the quarter.

Wayne

InTimeWithMusic

intimewithmusic · ‎06-09-2021

Very Well Said!

lotzofuniquegoodies · ‎06-10-2021

@teenytrinkets wrote:
@marnotom!

"I did a search for "SNAD chargebacks" on the eBay.com discussion boards and didn't come up with many recent results, and those discussions that did come up weren't very lengthy ones. That doesn't mean that chargebacks don't occur, but I don't think they occur with any degree of regularity for most sellers unless they're selling high-risk items."

Take my word for it - there are a TON of posts about Payment Disputes for SNAD, and a boatload of other reasons. There's been a lot of YouTube videos posted by the popular resellers, as well.

Most notably one that invloved a Payment Dispute (Chargeback) with the reason "Other" - and the seller LOST! HTF does THAT happen?

The "Double Dispute" that Intimewithmusic mentioned has seemingly become quite popular with the scammers.

And here's the latest scam: the buyer uses a credit card belonging to someone at a different address. Then the credit card holder files a dispute (charge not recognized) and since the item wasn't sent to the card holder's address, they win the case and the buyer gets the item for free. As I recall, PayPal offered seller protection for us, but Ebay takes the "hands off" approach when it comes to the credit card dispute decision.

While I agree that chargebacks aren't new to MP, they're popping up more now and harder to win because of the disassociation between Ebay and Adyen, and no longer having that extra layer of protection that PayPal provided. The scammer buyers catch wind of these new weaknesses, and then the problem becomes exponential.

Seems like sellers now using MP may end up with an empty cookie jar...

Very true. Atleast with PayPal you could talk to a PayPal person. With Ayden that does not seem to be a possibility. Hearing "talk to your bank or CC" is not really all that, how shall we say....ummmm...Comforting!!!

-Lotz

marnotom! · ‎06-10-2021

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

The majority of payment dispute claims that I've read about in MP are 'didn't recognize the charge' and in those cases, ebay covers the seller as long as they show delivery confirmation to the payment zip/postal code. Paypal used the term unauthorized charge for those types of charges and handled them in a similar way. But I've read that ebay handles an unauthorized charge...when a buyer says the card was used without their permission..in a different way so that sellers aren't covered in that case. I can't confirm that but if it is true, then sellers would benefit with a two step verification system if that mean that buyers couldn't say the use of their card was unauthorized.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, PJ. The only difference I can see with how Managed Payments handles an unauthorized charge dispute versus how PayPal handles it is that Managed Payments requires proof of delivery to the address on the order plus the date of delivery, whereas PayPal gives sellers the option of proof of shipping to that address in addition to proof of delivery. See under "When a buyer reports that they don't recognize the transaction":

https://www.ebay.ca/help/selling/getting-paid/handling-payment-disputes?id=4799

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I think that a bigger problem is with snad charges as in the op's case and I don't see how a 2 step verification system would help a seller with a snad. Just because the credit card can confirm that a card wasn't used fraudently doesnt mean that they are going to disallow a snad claim? Am I missing something there?

And let's not forget that in the OP's case, while the buyer really ought to have taken this up with the OP first, the buyer did have a legitimate SNAD item on their hands, if I'm understanding the OP correctly.

I don't know how SNAD charge disputes or claims could be prevented in a way that could filter out illegitimate ones on the spot. I see it as the nature of the beast when it comes to purchasing items sight unseen.

marnotom! · ‎06-10-2021

@teenytrinkets wrote:

@marnotom!

Take my word for it - there are a TON of posts about Payment Disputes for SNAD, and a boatload of other reasons. There's been a lot of YouTube videos posted by the popular resellers, as well.

I don't need to take your word for it. I did a search for "SNAD Chargebacks" on the .com boards and did a sort by date. There's nothing that comes up for this month so far, two threads for May, a couple for April, nothing for March, a couple for February. . .you get the idea. The threads generally aren't all that long, either. When you consider how much larger the .com marketplace is compared to the .ca marketplace and how much busier the discussion boards are, I don't consider a couple of posts a month on the subject to be "tons".

Double disputes? I seem to recall this happening in PayPal's early days. Pain in the butt to defend the same claim twice, but I would imagine in time Adyen will come up with an automated process to deal with them as PayPal seems to have done.

@teenytrinkets wrote:

And here's the latest scam: the buyer uses a credit card belonging to someone at a different address. Then the credit card holder files a dispute (charge not recognized) and since the item wasn't sent to the card holder's address, they win the case and the buyer gets the item for free. As I recall, PayPal offered seller protection for us, but Ebay takes the "hands off" approach when it comes to the credit card dispute decision.

This doesn't jive with what eBay claims on its Managed Payments help page (see my earlier post) so somebody may be dropping the ball here. PayPal can't do much about the credit card issuer's decision, either, by the way, but they can use their chargeback insurance or whatever scheme they have going to make sure the seller isn't out the funds if and when the credit card issuer decides to reimburse the "buyer". I guess we need some clarification about what eBay means when the seller needs to ship to "the address on the order" which is a requirement for this sort of chargeback protection.

@teenytrinkets wrote:

While I agree that chargebacks aren't new to MP, they're popping up more now and harder to win because of the disassociation between Ebay and Adyen, and no longer having that extra layer of protection that PayPal provided. The scammer buyers catch wind of these new weaknesses, and then the problem becomes exponential.

Seems like sellers now using MP may end up with an empty cookie jar...

This is the kind of thinking that led to the Global Shipping Program being unleashed on us. Sellers would see loads of posts on the eBay.com International Trading Discussion Board from sellers who sent an untracked item out of the country and were later hit with an INR claim which they felt was bogus. These outraged, supposedly victimized sellers would swear off selling internationally despite the dozens or even hundreds of successful international sales they had under their belt. And the sellers reading these posts would conclude that international selling was a ticket to getting undefendable INR claims for everything they sold to a location out of the United States.

Don't confuse dozens or hundreds of posts on SNAD chargebacks from hundreds or thousands of sellers with the possibility a single seller getting dozens or thousands of SNAD chargebacks.

teenytrinkets · ‎06-10-2021

@marnotom!

I'm not confusing anything. You mentioned not being able to find many examples of SNAD chargebacks in your searches. I'm telling you there are a LOT of them, and they're recent, and they appear to be related to the switch to MP. Try also searching Reddit, YouTube, Facebook and other social media, not just "the boards". It's much discussed. And everyone's pointing the finger at MP. Again, it could be a coincidence... it could be people freaking out over MP and pointing the finger there. I mean, that would seem the case if these types of chargebacks have always been possible. I guess the question is why do they appear to be happening more now, after sellers have switched to MP? Is it because buyers that don't use PayPal, and only buy and deal directly with their credit card, are now able to buy from sellers that historically only accepted PayPal? Or is it because buyer scammers are catching wind of the loopholes because sellers are incessantly complaining about the flaws and scams they feel are associated with MP?

It will be interesting to see if we get more examples of these Payment Disputes in this board once MP becomes mandatory by the end of the year. Stay tuned!

marnotom! · ‎06-10-2021

The problem with using discussion boards and forums as a gauge of an event's occurence is that we don't know how representative these posts are. For everybody who posts about a specific thing happening to them, there are many more who don't, but we don't know how many. Also, if one feels they're reading "a lot" of these posts--however many "a lot" is--it tends to magnify the event in one's mind.

In the early 2000s, when PayPal was a new thing, there was a lot of vitriol spewed by sellers (and some buyers) who felt they had been wronged by the service and those who clearly didn't have a good grasp of its limitiations and how to mitigate them. There was even a much-used "PayPal Sucks!" website on which people could post their negative experiences with the service. There are still those who do complain about PayPal, of course, but these posts aren't nearly as common as they were in, say, 2002. And yet people still signed up for PayPal, eBay bought it out and then lost it, and now more people are posting about how wonderful PayPal is and how much they will miss it as an eBay seller. While PayPal has become a slicker, less ragtag operation than it was a couple of decades ago, I don't think too much has changed when it comes to signing up for it or for seller or buyer protections. Education and the "hundredth monkey effect" has helped a lot, I think.

Why might (can't say for certain that they are) online reports of SNAD chargebacks be increasing? Here are some interwoven ideas. Internet sales are increasing thanks to the pandemic. More sales means the possibility of more SNAD chargebacks, particularly from buyers new to eBay or are trying to buy without PayPal for the first time and who don't know or understand that eBay has a Money Back Guarantee policy. eBay may have to revamp how it markets the MBG in light of Managed Payments.