eBay

teenytrinkets · ‎06-05-2021

Yesterday a buyer opened a Payment Dispute in the amount of $12 for a $16.99 item, citing "Not As Described". 3 days after shipping. Without contacting me.

In the dispute, I'm given only two options: to challenge it or refund the buyer.

No option to have the buyer "return".

It appears if we don't refund the disputed amount by the deadline, we are charged a $20 fee! ZERO protection. Even if I'd had tracking!!! (Because, as we know, sellers never win a SNAD claim). This is extortion of the worst kind...

"If a buyer files a payment dispute, and you’re found responsible for the disputed amount, you’ll be charged a $20 dispute fee by eBay. If you accept the payment dispute and issue a refund, eBay will waive the dispute fee, and you’ll be responsible for the refund amount issued to your buyer."

Does anyone have more information about this new fee and how sellers can protect themselves against losing their item, their paid shipping and fees, and the $20 payment dispute fee?!

marnotom! · ‎06-06-2021

@arhirii2007 wrote:

So how many more reasons do you all need to stop selling on eBay? Obviously the whole thing has turned into a MASSIVE SCAM that will NEVER be fixed. Ultimately, eBay cannot stay in business if there are no sellers willing to sell anything for buyers to scam them. Let eBay know by voting with your non-existent listings.

I don't know of any online payment processors or eCommerce sites that will offer sellers protection against a credit card chargeback for a not-as-described item.

This discussion from the .com boards is a bit old, but still relevant:

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Archive-Selling/Seller-protection-against-SNAD-abuse-let-s-summarize-o...

reallynicestamps · ‎06-06-2021

Most sellers find that problems and Disputes make up less than the one percent of transactions that is the retail norm.

There are some categories (electronics, sportscards, horse tack,dolls) where the percentage is higher, but if your problem transactions are greater than two percent of your business, you have to start looking, not at the venue, but at how you can protect yourself from those bad buyers.

EBay is not your mommy.

There are protections in place.

There are others which you can choose to add to your listings, like automatic Blocks on bidders with Strikes, or Immediate Payment Required or advertising economy shipping but automatically upgrading to faster Expedited service.

teenytrinkets · ‎06-06-2021

I was under the impression that if the buyer paid with PayPal (which USED to be everyone's main method of payment) a return was required for a CC SNAD, as it is for PayPal. I think the reason most of us sellers haven't experienced the CC SNAD is because buyers typically dealt with PayPal (CCs take too long). And as you pointed out, they are now one and the same for those of us that have switched to MP.

Ebay isn't our "mommy" - this is true. But they tout "seller protection" when there really is none, and now they've gone and forced theft for SNAD claims with the introduction of MP.

The thing that bothers me the most about the loss of PayPal as my payment provider, is that I always felt like they had my back. I could call them, speak to a human, explain the situation, and they would ALWAYS do the fair thing. I know not everyone has had the same experiences, but this has been mine. Now it appears that whenever we have a payment dispute, we're SOL. Ebay says they can't do anything about it. It's out of their hands. And that's exactly how they like it.

marnotom! · ‎06-06-2021

While I'm not sure if PayPal's changed its policy on returning SNAD merchandise in the event of a credit card charge dispute/chargeback, I know that it hasn't "protected" buyers against these types of claims for some time if ever. Check the date on that PayPal information page to which I linked; I think it goes back to 2018.

Credit card charge disputes/chargebacks are quite a different ball of wax than claims made through eBay or PayPal. One of the reasons why eBay and PayPal have the buyer protection schemes they do is to head off chargebacks, which are time-consuming and expensive to process. I don't know if online sellers who take direct credit card payments are able to do more to "defend" themselves in the event of a SNAD charge dispute/chargeback but if they were, I suspect they wouldn't find all the work involved to be worth it for a $17 sale.

This is nothing to do with eBay's changeover to Managed Payments. This situation would have unfolded pretty much the same way under the old PayPal-supported payment process.

teenytrinkets · ‎06-06-2021

"This is nothing to do with eBay's changeover to Managed Payments. This situation would have unfolded pretty much the same way under the old PayPal-supported payment process."

Absolutely not. In my case, the buyer paid with PayPal and would've been forced to pay for a return in order to get a refund. She would've likely contacted me to discuss if she had to fork out any of her own money, rather than the option that ebay offered, which was just file the dispute - free and fast - a refund in 3 business days AND gets to keep the item!

And on my end, I could've fought a PayPal SNAD with photos, information, etc. I could call them, etc. But with this MP version of how a PayPal SNAD is handled, it would get dragged it out longer with little ability to fight it and then the buyer gets a refund anyway and I pay the $20 dispute fee.

As it turns out, I reached out to the buyer and we worked things out. Ebay made it too easy for her to have her unwarranted hissy fit. Cooler heads prevailed. She's planning to cancel the dispute, but I have no idea if that will even work because the ball is already rolling for the payment dispute on ebay's side. I'll follow-up to find out.

So from my perspective, this is VERY much a MP issue.

marnotom! · ‎06-07-2021

Buyers can still use PayPal to make payments through Managed Payments and they can still file PayPal claims and cases for items purchased through Managed Payments if PayPal was their choice of payment method.

Your buyer may have used a credit card to fund their PayPal payment but, knowing that PayPal requires them to return on their own dime a SNAD item to the seller, decided to pursue the claim through their credit card issuer instead, unaware that the eBay MBG would have required that you pay for the return instead.

Your buyer had at least one option to a credit card dispute/chargeback available to them, possibly two. For whatever reason they decided not to use an alternative to a credit card dispute/chargeback. This has nothing to do with Managed Payments.

To cancel the charge dispute/chargeback, your buyer will have to contact their credit card issuer who will in turn contact eBay. Here's hoping it works out for you.

tyler@ebay · ‎06-07-2021

Thanks for the tag @femmefan1946! I will get the suggestion to the payments team that in the case of third-party financial disputes we'd like to see an option to ask for the item to be returned.

To clarify - a payment dispute is a buyer taking action directly with their card issuer/financial isntitution. If a buyer had opened a return request or another request under the eBay Money Back Guarantee you would see the option to accept a return.

Because they are taking things completely outside of eBay's purview there will be limitations to what can be done on our side.

Thanks!

Tyler,

reallynicestamps · ‎06-07-2021

@teenytrinkets

If the buyer opens a Paypal dispute, that should still be the case.

Buyers can still pay with PP, we just don't accept it directly.

This is a case where the unhappy buyer went to her credit card, not Paypal. PP has always been the payment processor when the buyer paid directly with her card (we saw that first with guest buyers) . And of course many PP accounts are backed with credit cards and buyers may go there if they are more used to chargebacks than dealing with Paypal Disputes.

And then there are crooks.

reallynicestamps · ‎06-07-2021

I will get the suggestion to the payments team that in the case of third-party financial disputes we'd like to see an option to ask for the item to be returned.

I am shocked and appalled that no one on the Managed Payments team thought this might possibly be a problem occasionally.

Tyler dear, this is NOT a "suggestion".

teenytrinkets · ‎06-07-2021

Furthermore tyler@ebay

Why isn't there an option to release funds upon cancelation of the dispute?

I contacted my buyer and cleared things up, and she agreed to cancel the dispute. But, since the financial institution can take 90 days to investigate, I'll have to wait weeks/ months for ebay to release the hold on the disputed funds.

Is this going to be the new normal for SNAD payment disputes going forward, now that ebay has essentially forced sellers into accepting direct credit card payment with the introduction of MP???

teenytrinkets · ‎06-07-2021

@reallynicestamps

While it's possible, I've never had a buyer pay with PayPal and not facilitate the dispute directly with them... in 19 years of selling.

What's happening now is the EXACT reason I've never accepted credit card payment. But Ebay has now forced us to allow it. And they're the middle man, controlling the money, but putting up their hands and saying "not my fault", when it clearly IS their fault. This issue has been popping up all over the place in the past year with the introduction of MP... and it reeks.

intimewithmusic · ‎06-07-2021

Hi Tyler,

We have one .ca ebay 20 year Veteran Seller with his store allready shut down over this. I'm afraid to open "Community" anymore.

This is quickly becoming the "eBay Seller Victim Credit Card Dispute Pandemic" . Valued eBay Sellers are victims.

2, 3, then 4 and 5 Seller victims are all on different community threads saying the same thing. Add in Sellers threatening to leave eBay due to MP and Item Specifics.

Community has become toxic.

Community is for Sellers to help each other. It's not a place to "bury the dead" as in diseased eBay stores. Seller can't help Sellers with this in Community. Why?

eBay, through you as messenger keeps placing the burden of eBay's messed up relationship with Adyen on the shoulders of it's own valued Sellers. I mean no disrespect as you are just the messenger telling Sellers the problem is the Credit Card Company. eBay is not responsible to pay us.

Everyone here knows this is nonsense. Currently eBay is getting negative feedback on this globally. It's all over Community.ca, Community.com, YouTube and Facebook etc etc. People who read that kind of stuff do not want to sell on the platform. Many buyers will go to Amazon. I am fully sure eBay has spent a lot to get good Sellers onboard. I can't believe it would **bleep** that all away by not stopping this at the get go.

Let's not kid ourselves. Sellers who do their part right should not be on here saying you did not pay them. Ebay through you should not be on here saying that is because someone else [*.* VISA /MC blew off Adyen] who did not pay you.

In my 50 years in the pro music business I saw a lot of these types of excuses. I can tell you at the top of the music industry where the Junos and all of our treasured festivals and concerts occur exists a "family". Groups of professionals and amatuers that learned how to get along. Those who do their job properly get paid.

If this continues through the fourth quarter I think the outlook for a our big fall season is severley compromised. You're not just chasing away Sellers with the toxicity but Buyers and new Sellers as well.

Please reimburse those who this has happened to and fix the problem before it happens to me and I have to open up a new "Discussion". If eBay doesn't fix this now the only solution I can think of is to go back to sending cheques or cash in envelopes. Walmart told VISA to take a hike for stuff like this and dropped them for months.

Since the days when buyers sent cash in envelopes to ebay sellers things have evolved. With the implementation of various payment methods we subscribed to eBay to look after this stuff and your feedback rating is plummetting. We want to work with winners.

You told us the advantages when switching to Managed Payments were the added methods of payments available to buyers. The problem is eBay does not know that the word "Payments" means paying Sellers every single time they do their part.

InTimeWithMusic

intimewithmusic · ‎06-07-2021

"Theft By Chargeback" ....!!..perfect. You just coined something very "catchy".

Mine wouldn't be so catchy

"eBay Seller theft By VISA-MASTERCARD-ADYEN-EBAY Chargeback"

more accurate but i like yours better.

marnotom! · ‎06-08-2021

I’ve been going nuts trying to find out how PayPal handles SNAD chargebacks. All I can find is information such as that page I linked to earlier that states that this sort of chargeback is not covered by PayPal’s Seller Protection Policy. Anyone got any recent links?

tyler@ebay · ‎06-08-2021

@teenytrinkets wrote:
Furthermore tyler@ebay

Why isn't there an option to release funds upon cancelation of the dispute?

I contacted my buyer and cleared things up, and she agreed to cancel the dispute. But, since the financial institution can take 90 days to investigate, I'll have to wait weeks/ months for ebay to release the hold on the disputed funds.

Is this going to be the new normal for SNAD payment disputes going forward, now that ebay has essentially forced sellers into accepting direct credit card payment with the introduction of MP???

Hi @teenytrinkets - when it comes to timelines for holds on your funds for payment disputes (chargebacks) we hold the funds until the financial institution makes a decision. Different payment providers have different timeslines for how long disputes can remain opened.

If the dispute has been closed by the buyer, CS should be able to manually release the funds if they're able to confirm with the financial institution that the dispute has been closed. The best course of action is to request a call back from a payments-trained teammate so they can review.

As to a 'new normal' - essentially, yes, this is how disputes are going to be handled. Going directly to the financial institution bypasses our onsite resolution methods like opening a return or item not received request and isn't something we encourage (but also is not something we can prevent).

Tyler,

teenytrinkets · ‎06-08-2021

tyler@ebay

"If the dispute has been closed by the buyer, CS should be able to manually release the funds if they're able to confirm with the financial institution that the dispute has been closed. The best course of action is to request a call back from a payments-trained teammate so they can review. "

Incorrect. I already spoke to a payments trained rep at Ebay regarding my buyer closing the dispute. They said they cannot release the funds until the financial institution notifies Ebay of the cancelation. That can still take up to 90 days. The rep said they CANNOT release the funds manually. And they CANNOT confirm manually with the financial institution that the dispute was closed. These are all handled automatically by ebay's payment system. And can take up to 90 days.

Funny how the payment disputes and the holding of funds go through in 2.2 seconds - I have to respond in 3 days, but everything else takes up 90 days... sigh...

lotzofuniquegoodies · ‎06-08-2021

@teenytrinkets wrote:
tyler@ebay

"If the dispute has been closed by the buyer, CS should be able to manually release the funds if they're able to confirm with the financial institution that the dispute has been closed. The best course of action is to request a call back from a payments-trained teammate so they can review. "

Incorrect. I already spoke to a payments trained rep at Ebay regarding my buyer closing the dispute. They said they cannot release the funds until the financial institution notifies Ebay of the cancelation. That can still take up to 90 days. The rep said they CANNOT release the funds manually. And they CANNOT confirm manually with the financial institution that the dispute was closed. These are all handled automatically by ebay's payment system. And can take up to 90 days.

Funny how the payment disputes and the holding of funds go through in 2.2 seconds - I have to respond in 3 days, but everything else takes up 90 days... sigh...

The other major concernhappens with order cancellations(where payment has been made) are not handled like a reversal. The refund is processed from bank account (as a seperate transaction)because sellers in most cases do not have the funds in pending to cover the process. Very annoying when order has high shipping attached.

-Lotz

pjcdn2005 · ‎06-08-2021

I'm not in MP yet do I am not speaking from experience but .....According to a few other posters, if a cancellation is requested before the payment had been processed the funds to come from the same payment the buyer made. Basically the cancellation zeros out an unprocessed payment.

lotzofuniquegoodies · ‎06-08-2021

@pjcdn2005

Twice the answer to that is NO. It showed up in payouts as a separate transaction and it was cancelled in less than 1 hour. eBay specialists(5 + a disconnect at their end) are completely in the dark as to how it should or shouldn't work. Involved shipping on my first cancel was 95.00 Cad.

-Lotz

PS. Just checked. Unable to view timestamp on each transaction. The joys of "tape delay."

intimewithmusic · ‎06-08-2021

"Theft By Chargeback" is all over social media & very crippling to both eBay sellers & buyers. The $20 penalty on the thefts is fuelling anger on SM. Just one video by Prime time Treasure Hunter in February has received over 40,000 views. He has been talking about it ever since. He has 28,000 subscribers.

Two days ago "The Auction Professor" posted a video on "Theft By Chargeback". It has 10K views already. He (Don) has 50,000 subscibers. ALL sellers should watch these videos. Don offers good advice on how to properly avoid the chargebacks.

It doesn't matter if PayPal did it. PayPal is out of the picture.

It doesn't matter if other platforms do this. Ebay is supposed to be the best online market place (according to Ebay).

cal-ectibles store is still offline because of this.

Solutions:

1. No chargebacks unless the seller is at fault.

2. No fee unless the seller is at fault.

3. Puchases over a specific amount should require two step verification at check out with buyers. That way eBay -Adyen completely over rides this Theft By Chargeback problem. This has become the norm with most online companies including GoDaddy. Two step verification on larger sales would enhance both the buyer and seller experience through the security feature. buyers who've had their card stolen wouldn't end up disputing eBay charges.

I like it when I purchase on goDaddy or make a change to my web site hosting service when they ping my cell for two step verification. I feel protection. Someone is going to say"The delay could cause the buyer to change his mind."

That's not my experience. If that were to happen it would be on a larger purchase over the threshold. It would not affect smaller sales. As well "Make Offer" has a 2 day wait for acceptance. That doesn't seem to bother Ebay's sales.

I would be comfortable listing $5000 items should this be implemented. Currently I'm holding off.

IT