Are we going to have another federal election??:|

[sunset_sports_cards]

So what is the feeling of the posters we have left here. Are we taking the track to another Federal election? Will the tories crumble an already unstable Liberal government? Post your feelings here!

[audioshack]

To Martin's credit, he has stepped up to the plate and taken responsibility as the PM. What needs to be accomplished now is the legal prosecutuion of those actually responsible and the ministers that directed them. I would like to see if Martin has the b*lls to follow through on his promise to do so. If the government is disolved he won't get that opportunity and we will never know. The next party in power would use it as fodder for months but, in the end, nothing would happen.

By the way marcopoloca, who posted a suggestion that is was OK to steal any taxpayers dollars? I have read back over the posts in this thread and can find nothing that even remotely resembles that line of thought.

If you are referring to post #15 I would urge you to read again what was written. You may have taken it the wrong way.

[marcopoloca]

Hey, let's not point any fingers here. So next time we can tell our kid it's ok to give us a fake receipt, just don't steal it.

[audioshack]

Well now the finger has to be pointed - get it right!

Nowhere has it been written that it is acceptable to steal or forge invoices. I can only assume you have trouble reading the post.

What you decide to tell your kids is your problem. Personally, if you do decide to tell them that it is OK to "give us a fake receipt, just don't steal it", I would like to go on record now as saying I don't want my tax dollars to pay for their incarceration down the road.

[shoplineca]

Rob
I think you will agree that my position of late with respect to this topic has not been as much pro Liberal as pro best government.

I agree that money plays a big part of running an election, of winning an election and of staying in power. So why would you want an election called when the Liberals purportedly have all this extra money from the ad scam to run a bigger campaign?

What is the rush to an election before the Gomery commission comes out with their findings? Are you frightened that Martin may be exhonerated and all of the current Liberals found to have not been involved or aware of the scandals?

If that is the case, then what is the purpose of running an election at all?

I would never lump the current Conservatives in bed with Mulroney as there have been clear changes all the way down to Clark within the party. The same may very well hold true for Martin who is far more liked and trusted by Canadians than Harper.

Clearly at this stage, the best Government is a minority government and all a Spring election will do is either re-elect a Liberal minority or elect a Conservative minority with some more seats falling to the Bloc and likely resulting in a fall referendum, also held before the Gomery report is tabled.

Whether there is a Liberal minority government obeying the demands of the Conservatives or a Conservative minority government obeying the demands of the Liberals, we do not need another election at this time.

I would have thought you would prefer to have a full report tabled and time to organize to go for a majority Conservative government rather than have a 46/36 chance to win a minority.

If the long-time Conservatives continue to only listen to themselves they will never hear and understand those other Canadians who could vote either Liberal or Conservative. The Conservatives dont understand the Cdn electorate and the Cdn people and what they want. Until they do, there will be the ocassional flip flop of parties but mostly Liberal run governments.

With 77% of Canadians not wanting a Spring election, well, as the saying goes, be careful of what you ask for. It may just backfire and you find yourself facing a Liberal majority.

Bad timing and the Conservatives are not even close to being ready for an election.

You dont win elections by saying we will do it differently. You win by saying what you will do and I dont hear that out of Harper's mouth, at least not with any conviction.

I honestly wish the Conservatives had a decent person running their party to provide some alternatives but I would shudder at the likes of Harper being our domestic leader speaking to the world on behalf of Canada.

Malcolm

[recped]

Malcolm

You probably have surmised that I don't always agree with your comments but here in this thread I think you've got a very clear grasp on the situation....

The 100 million is chump change
Harper has no chance
Another election at this time is pointless

With regard to your last line in #23, would Joe fit the bill? I've always been a casual Liberal supporter but I'd be satisfied with the (old) New Conservatives if Joe could wrest control of the party from the clutches of the Reform. I'm not well enough informed on Peter Mackay but from I have seen he might make a viable option.

Ben
"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915

[audioshack]

Sorry, but Mackay shot himself in the foot when he promised his party "No deal with the Reform" at their convention and within days was making a deal with Harper.

There are few alternatives on the horizon. Joe "Who" could no longer generate enough support or excitement to lead the Conservatives and has made it clear that he has no interest in working with Reformers. Preston has no interest in working with Conservatives. Tobin would not be welcomed back and New Brunswicks Lord has said he isn't interested (although it is speculated that he just needs more time in provincial politics before stepping onto the national stage). Most provincial premiers would not be welcomed in Ottawa anyway.

Backbenchers are not allowed to develop like they once were. If anyone of them starts to develop a persona the party whip and the PMO slaps them back into line. There are not a lot of viable choices out there. Is Ken Dryden our next PM???:-)

[marcopoloca]

I don't know how anyone could of misinterpret what was said in post #19, it merely pointed out the issues of relativity and accountability. I have not said anything that anyone here who had posted a suggestion that it was OK to steal any taxpayers dollars. We are all hard working honest people on ebay trying to make a few dollars. So just be cool with your pro-martin movement here.
i am neither pro or against Martin, he has not been on the job long enough for any judgement; he's afterall the one who called for the enquiry.
This issue alone could not have toppled the government, it's the system that allows the opposition to do it.
The liberal did just that to the PC's Kim Campbell for something far less serious. (i am not PC nor do i like Harper)

[shoplineca]

The Conservatives probably would be in a position to run and do so with Peter whether he lied or not. The biggest problem with the COnservative party is it is not a single party. There are 2 very distinct factions that just dont get along together very well and Canadians see through that.

Harper is unable to please both sides of his own party, so how the heck could he satisfy Canada holding the position of Prime Minister?

An election is not needed at this time. No one, no single party and no Canadian needs an election at this time. We need to get through legislation and budgets passed and run this country for a couple of years before greed convinces someone that they could win a majority government.

I would be willing to bet that a Spring election will result in the single worst electoral turnout in the country's history. Proably between 21 and 27%.

... and so who cares who wins, it wouldnt be the majority of Canadians that elected the government and who would want to run a government who ran against the wishes of the majority of the people?

I am actually disappointed in Martin stating that he would call an election within 30 days of the Gomery report being tabled.

PS I am not a Martin fan, I was never a Chretien fan and I could never be a Harper fan. The other parties (Bloc, NDP and Green, dont mean anything to me).

Ben,
Joe was a great side kick, never a leader. Recently I saw him, I saw someone that was a shadow of the man he was years before. He was caught up in the old school way of politics and unable to change, to adapt. (I'd definately vote for his daughter though).

The rush to join the Reform and the Conservatives together reminded me of the rush to close the NAFTA agreement with the US. Getting it done became more important that what the end result was.

As I said before, the current party is nothing more than 2 distinct factions operating under a single banner, disgruntled and disorganized and with a leader that isnt.

Mike Harris is the only guy I could see heading up the party, cleaniong house and possibly forming a government, but as was stated, seldom are Provincial leaders accepted across Canada.

There are several in the wings gunning for Martin's job including John Manley. His problem is that he was a major part of the Chretien government and while his nose was clean (I know that for a fact) presumption of guilt through association will not allow him to win an election.

Sometimes a party has to walk a potential leader through the ranks getting them publicity for 10-15 years before they move that person into the total limelight as a candidate to run the party.

Its not so much, who can come out of the woodwork today to win the next election that is important, is who is being groomed by a [arty to win an election 10 years from now that is really important.

Malcolm

[audioshack]

Don't suggest that I have support for Martin - if the scandal leads to him I will be only to happy to bring the rope.

My suggestion was that we wait until the inquiry has run it's course and the report is filed. Hopefully the guilty parties will all be charged by the RCMP and Canadian taxpapers can get some justice.

I did not misinterpret post 19 - your comparison was out of line with what had been writen in earlier posts. I have yet to see where anyone in this thread has even come close to writing that this scandal is acceptable. All Canadians are outraged but the real dilemma is how to deal with it. We are all concerned about political accountability - how does that equate to suggesting that "you tell your kid it's ok to steal $1 even though you might have 100,000 in your bank?"? I invite you to point to any post where that suggestion was made.

Opposition parties obviously want the government toppled but Canadaians, generally, are not yet ready for another election - especially since we don't have a budget yet. Another election now will likely result in another minority government so how much furhtre ahead will we be.

My contention is that we need to wait for Justice Gomery to arrive at conclusions before rounding up a lynch party. If we (Canadians) are going to prosecute the scum that have stolen taxpayers dollars then I beleive it makes sense to get the whole bunch that are involved. I am also concerned that another government would not follow through with the process. I want to see if Martin is going to do what he says he is going to do.

For those interested, Martin is on Cross Country Checkup this afternoon on CBC radio. If should be a lively call in show.

By the way, the Liberals did nothing to Kim Campbell. I would argue that her predecessor and the Canadian voter did it to her and the PC party. She also was her own worst enemy - on the campaign trail she made the fatal error or suggesting that an election campaign was no time to talk about issues.... duh.

[marcopoloca]

So why is it $100 million is small potato in a multi-billion budget? If everyone is in line there'd be no Gomery enquirey. I merely stated the facts but if someone is upset because it doesn't fall into the "bigger" picture, too bad. Who was ready for a new election back then when Campbell's government was only in the office for a few days!

[audioshack]

Kim Campbell never was elected as Prime Minister. She was handed the throne when Brian flew the coup. Her first campaign as the Tory leader was the one she lost. And to answer your question and according to the election results that year, Canadians were very ready for an election. A majority government was reduced to two seats in Parliament. If that doesn't tell you that Canadians wanted a change, nothing will.

As to the first part of your post #29, it appears that you have totally missed what shoplineca wrote in post #15 and you don't seem to be getting back to what was truly said. All that was said was that perspective was needed - certainly no excuses were made and no forgiveness forthcoming. No one suggested that stealing was OK in any amount nor was a suggestion made that forging invoices was acceptable. No one is trying to sugar-coat anything. The people involved have done a great injustice to the Canadian taxpayer and they should suffer the consequences to the fullest extent of the law.

[recped]

Who was ready for a new election back then when Campbell's government was only in the office for a few days!


I think everyone in Canada was ready except for perhaps....


"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915

[shoplineca]

Poiticians do not run our government, they are not the trustees. Politicians are simply the Board of Directors who oversee the people who run our government.

The highest ranking beaurocrats are not Liberal, nor COnservative nor NDP nor Green. They do not take their marching orders from the Cabinet Ministers, even though the Cabinet Ministers like to think they do.

It is the same with Municpal politics. Your elected local politicians do not run your City nor do they have power over CIty employees. They have their own staff and those are the only few people they manage and have any direct control over.

In order to end corruption within the Government, we have to stop thinking under whose watch was the biggest scandal.

So far no evidence in this or any other fiasco (including AIrbus, HRDC or the Gun Registry) has or likely ever will point a finger at any elected politician.

With the exception of a BC Federal NDP (Sven R) who steals from pharmacies and jewellers, the rest of them do not have their hands directly in the pot.

We have to take a look at the guys that are actually controlling each of the departments that are employees in the most senior non-elected positions and shut them down.

Keep looking for Chreitein and Mulroney and Martin as having their hands in the countries coffers and all that is happening is we are wasting our time and diverting attention away from the true guilty ones, the ones who created the systems and made those systems work for them.

Why would a senior elected Cabinet Minister pocket an envelope of cash and risk the rich rewards that await him after he leaves Parliament? Played right and holding some senior portfolios, a senior Cabinet Minister resigned from politics could easily earn $2 million per year sitting on the boards of several companies and lobbying the government on behalh of highly financed special interest groups.

Lets wipe out government corruption but lets start looking in the right place and that place is not with the elected individuals.

Right now they are trying to hang Martin on whether he actualy met the President of that Quebec ad company or not. Who the hell cares? He meets millions of people every year and has his picture taken with thousands.

The only thing I care about is whether he personally took money (which I doubt beyond anything else given his personal wealth) or whether he knew about federal monies going into the Liberal party and I honestly dont know how he would have any idea about something like that.

Just like Clinton, you cant find the guy guilty of a major crime but lets get him in a lie after all a lie is a lie.

Clean out the dirty beaurocrats, downsize the government and lets get on with the show.

Malcolm

[audioshack]

... and she still has that "deer caught in the headlights" look. lol

[rd1000]

"So far no evidence in this or any other fiasco (including AIrbus, HRDC or the Gun Registry) has or likely ever will point a finger at any elected politician"

Then there is no reason to wait for Gomery report. We hear the last evidence at the end of May, and then voters (the jury) can make up their mind if they want this government to continue.

I agree with you Malcolm. But those beaurocrats take their cue from their leaders. And the leadership has been a disaster. And I repeat...maybe Martins hands are clean, but surely he must be able to provide SOME information as to where the problem lies. And he has offered NONE. Yet he claims to want to get to the bottom of this.

Politicians are held to a higher standard than just criminal activity. And so they should be. They are our leaders...and they should act like it. I hope there is an election in June. If the Liberals win again, then obviously the country is prepared to accept this activity as normal, and the Gomery report probably would not make a difference anyway. If they don't, we have a better chance of finding out if any other funds are missing, such as Gun Registry money, or maybe the 9 billion squirrelled away in trust funds that can't be audited. Scary to think of where that money is going.

Rob

[marcopoloca]

You have your perspective, and we have ours. We should just stated our opinion here and not force other to accept yours. You might believe that 100 million is small change relative to the budget, etc. and should not lead to an election. Some people think otherwise.
While a big percentage of Canadian don't want another election so soon, does that make the rest of the other Canadian wrong? According to the latest Ipsos-Reid / Global poll, Conversative would have 134 seats compare to 75 for liberal if an election is held today.

[shoplineca]

Rob
Harper said he will put an end to all the corruption but as yet has not offered any method of he is going to proceed.

I am sick and tired of all these useless politicians and their double talk.

The fact remains that an outside investigation is what is needed right now, department to department. That has to be performed and any incident of theft or wrong doing or manipulation of power for personal gain means immediate loss of job, possible loss of pension, possible jail time and mandatory retrobution.

I think that is what the people should be demanding and what should be happening. It is so deeply entrenched that it requires someone from outside to come in and start making big waves.

Where is the money going? I keep saying take a drive around Ottawa. Even the new Barhaven developments have subdivisions with each home costing over $1 million, in Barrhaven of all places (BBQHaven as it was once called).

Ottawa probably has over 2,000 homes costing over $1 million each and many have civil servants living in them.
I would like to know how they manage that. Cripes I couldnt even afford the Ottawa taxes on a $million home. Has to be over $15,000 per year at least.

Heck I just moved in November, I have absolutely no property, the houses look like starter homes from when I bought my first yet my place is worth over $450,000.

These civil servants are getting kickbacks from several key carpet companies when they get new caprets put into the govt offices every year, as well as from furniture companies putting in the new stuff and the 2nd hand furniture companies getting the 1-year old stuff.

I learned of alot of things even amongst the RCMP where senior guys had an RCMP vehicle for themselves and were leasing 2nd and 3rd vehicles under their expense accounts for family members.

The theft is so wide spread and the total annual dollars 'being stolen' in these manners makes the sponsorship's $100 million scandal look like chicken feed.

You cant have an elected person oversee this type of clean up. They dont have the background nor do they have the clout with the staff.

Court appointed forensic officers with the authority to charge people for obstruction is what is required.

How to go about it? I dont know, Ill get back to you on that one. But at least I am offering something more than the words Haper is utering.

Promsies are fine but there has to be a plan.

Malcolm

[audioshack]

marcopoloca

... and according to the latest polls, 72% of Canadians don't want another election so quickly. And if those poll numbers that you cite are correct, Canada would still have a minority government so just what would be the benefit? The costs to the taxpayer for a general election are staggering. The cost to our economy could be even more so.

Your suggestion is to spend hundreds of millions on a general election so that the current government may or may not be punished by their removal. Even before Justice Gomery completes his inquiry. Even before fingers can be pointed. Even before we know who the actual criminals are.

Yes, lets spend hundreds of millions on an election that (right now) 72% of Canadians say they don't want. Lets roll the dice with our economy and strengthen the Bloc's grip in Parliament. You would very likely wind up with the Bloc as official opposition again. An opposition that promotes a single province's perspective with the ultimate goal of leaving Canada. Yes, I can see know how we are all going to benefit from an election right now.

An election right now would only serve to satisfy an opposition too long out of power and with little hope of governing the nation with it's current leadership. An election right now would damage our economy. An election right now would increase the regional fractioning of our country.

An election right now, IMHO, is not in our nation's best interests.

[shoplineca]

If you took this thread and reviewed the comments, I am willing to bet that (a) the majority of Posters dont want a spring election (or even a fall one) and (b) the majority of people posting would not vote for Harper.

So if the people posting here, from all across Canada, present a fairly accurate concensus of the mood of this country, a government downed by the Conservatives would likely not mean a Conservative government, neither a minority nor a majority.

So who would be punished by this wasted exercise and wasted money spent on an election?

Well I suspect that the Conservative may wake up and get a real leader follwong another defeat, so there is a one positive thing that would come out of a spring election.

Malcolm

[marcopoloca]

The poll was done by Ipsos-Reid / Global poll (April 19-21; released April 22). While most Canadian don't want an election, but if one is to be held, Conservative would end up in majority. Ironic but that's the projection.
Martin himself said he would call an election within 30 days at the end of enquiry, so the money part is not a concern for either parties, it'll be spend sooner or later. It just seem more advantageous now for the Conservative and better for the Liberal if held later.