eBay

woztiques · ‎11-19-2003

I have a situation and do not know how to resolve it maybe someone can give me advice
Here is the situation:
I had a customer buy a brooch from me and she paid for it by paypal on October 31st.I sent the brooch out and the postal serivce sent it back to me stating the address label had been damaged and it was undeliverable.So i emailed her and told her what happened and sent it out the next day expresspost.. im in Canada and shes in the US.heres the problem, For some reason she claims she never got my email and she filed a complaint with Paypal.. they sided with her even though i gave them the information needed such as the tracking # and the company used.. i appealed it and they still denied me.. so now the brooch is on the way to her and she got her money back from Paypal.. i have nothing~!Has anyone ever had this trouble with paypal?How is a Canadian seller to use paypal if the out of country customers are going to pull this?Any input?

amberwoodottawa · ‎11-19-2003

1. I would think about filing a claim with CP as they damaged your first shipment (even if it was just the label).
2. You might also try to stop delivery using the tracking information. I havent done it before but there is always a slight chance.
3. And lastly, I would get proof of delivery after this second attempt to deliver you package has been made, using the tracking info and submit that to PayPal.
Forget about exlaining all the crap about damaged lables etc. Just submit the proof that it has been delivered.

There is no way for them to deny an appeal if you can prove delivery and with Express Post you can.

And last but not least, leave that dang customer a nice big negative feedback.
Malcolm

woztiques · ‎11-19-2003

Hi Malcolm
See thats the funny thing,They asked for the tracking # and company and they can clearly look it up and see it has been sent.. they say that because the Canadapost web page tracking service doesnt show the customers address they appeal is denied.. I assure you negative feedback will be given in this case.. this happened to me with another buyer a few weeks ago , i cant believe its happened again. I wonder if i can file a NPB report since techinally i have not been paid for it

amberwoodottawa · ‎11-19-2003

Get a hard copy confirmation of delivery from CP or file a claim with CP that it wasnt delivered.

Only file a NPB report after you get your delivery confirmation or that US customer (I use the word customer lightly) may file a fraud report against you.

The other thing that you could do is email the person (after you know they have the item) and advise them that you will be writing to the US Postmaster General to investigate mail theft over this incident and see if they reverse their position.
Malcolm

deltone · ‎11-19-2003

OP, I agree with what Malcolm says. I had a similar experience back in June. I knew the guy got my parcel but he did a chargeback on Paypal and they sided with him since I had no proof.

Rather than taking it sitting down, I emailed the guy. Before I did though I did a bit of research. I checked what town he lived in, and online checked the address, names and phone numbers of his local Post Office, Post Master, Police station and District Attorney's offices. I told him I'd filed a fraud report with USPS, and was getting ready to contact his local police dept. and DA's office. Voila!!! He suddenly remember he had received the dvd. I was bluffing but I got my money back. It's worth trying. GOOD LUCK!

llee2 · ‎11-19-2003

Wait a minute...let me get this straight. If we ship to a Paypal confirmed address via CP trackable, we still are not covered against chargebacks? All because the CP site doesn't show the customer's address? So basically, if we ship CP, nothing is protected against Paypal chargebacks??? Yikes! I hope that CP starts putting the address in when they do this supposed make-over to the "track item" page.

brownboxit · ‎11-20-2003

I would def contact CP 1800 tracking number... They have the address in their comps i believe, if i recall correctly on a claim a while ago they had all the address info on the delivery just from my tracking number.

get cp to perhaps fax that to you showing the address attached to the tracking number & forward to paypal!

I may be mistaken but I think I remember it that way.
paypal sucks, I know it's convenient, but it really sucks.

shooger · ‎11-20-2003

In my experience, any customer who pays by PayPal (which is 100% of my customers) can take back their money (plus a $10 chargeback fee) if they want to. It doesn't matter where I send to, what shipping method I used, or their confirmation status. If they're dishonest, they can nail me. Luckily, I only lose about 1-2% of my income this way, but it's still very upsetting. There's nothing worse than shipping someone your product and then having them take back the money, cost you $10 US in chargeback fees, and keep the product. To add insult to injury, they often leave negative feedback and/or send a harassing or gloating email. What a sweet world we live in! 😛

llee2 · ‎11-20-2003

I wonder if eBay could actually do something here. I mean since Paypal is part of eBay now and CP seems to be working with eBay to promote itself among PSers with its discount. Think eBay could convince CP to put the address on the tracking page of their website? Or even if eBay/Paypal could allow some consideration since they know that CP isn't putting address info online. We basically are getting zero fraud protection from chargebacks when we accept Paypal. Darla? Randall? Any comments please?

jaymor8 · ‎11-20-2003

I find this absolutely deplorable. Darla, please respond to this. Does Ebay give preferential treatment to American members over Canadians? If you say no, I hope you can back it up because all appearences point in one direction.

We follow all the rules, we do good business, we pay all of our fees and contribute to the success of ebay and this is the respect we are shown. It's unacceptable. I have never once heard of an incident where a Canadian member came out on top.

If we are not and will not be treated with the same protections and curtesies as our US counterparts, please tell me now. I will close my accounts.

Jackie...

llee2 · ‎11-20-2003

Jackie,

I don't know if it's a matter of differing treatment here (although I agree that it exists in many other areas). I know that Paypal is merely trying to protect itself and its users with this policy. What's to stop a seller from just pulling a random tracking number out of the air and say "Look it got delivered!" With no address confirmation it makes it hard for Paypal to know if the seller isn't committing fraud.

I think it's a good policy but I think there should be a way that we should be protected. Ideally, CP should provide that information online. Hopefully they will start when they revamp their tracking page. Every other courier service like Fedex and UPS does - why doesn't CP? Lack of competition maybe? And if CP can't or won't do this, then I think eBay/Paypal should take this into consideration. If we are able to obtain a hard copy from CP with addressee info, then Paypal should consider this as adequate proof. From what others have said, Paypal may already accept this as sufficient proof? Randall? Darla? Comments please?

P.S. Don't go Jackie please!!!! I'd miss you... *sniff* 😃

amberwoodottawa · ‎11-20-2003

The major problem lies with USPS who do not update any tracking information for at least 24 hours after a package has been delivered.

While CP and USPS worked out some pricing deals the efficiencies go out the door once your package is in the hands of USPS.

The other problem is that in the US, packages are left in unlocked mail boxes at the end of the driveway instead of a mail slot, or mail box attached to the house beside the front door.

Theft from mail boxes is very common in the US (I know I was a victim of identity theft when my credit card was stolen from my mail box and used to buy merchandise and obtain fake id).

Malcolm

jaymor8 · ‎11-20-2003

llee - I realize that backs need to be watched by why does it seem to be everyone else's backs but ours? Of course people can pull fast ones here and there but that would apply to buyers doing chargebacks and keeping the goods, too. Where do you draw the line and what is more likely to happen? Who in your opinion, has more to lose by screwing with the system?

As for CP and I use that term loosely...when you send an item Xpresspost you have your hard copy receipt with the addresson on it, if you use the prepaids. The tracking number will match your receipt and the addressee. Perhaps when you do your shipping, you could have forms made out with addresses on them and the PO won't mind stamping them for you. It sounds lame but it sure is better than nothing. I am at a loss to figure out how we can all enjoy protection. I think if ebay is going to intervene, then need to do that 100% and conversely, if they want to keep their nose out of our business, then do that too....100%. The company has become too big and too short staffed when they can't deal with all of the needs of it's quasi sales people.

Ahhhhhh I need a gingerale. I am up to my elbows in Ajax...scrubbing the bathroom. How glamourous, huh??

Jackie...

brcyclesalvage · ‎11-21-2003

If you want to see the address go to www.usps.com and type in the tracking #. The ExpressPost, Expedited, etc tracking #'s show up on the usps website once they have been delivered. They info is much more detailed than the CP website.

Ryan

www-labels4less-com · ‎11-21-2003

Thought this info would be important to this discussion. Note that no signature is needed on less than $250.00 US

***************************************************
Protection Policies - Buyer Complaint Process

What does the Buyer Complaint Process mean to me as a seller?

If we receive a dispute stating that your buyer never received the promised goods, you must have followed the rules of our Seller Protection Policy in order to qualify for liability protection:
You must be Verified.
You must not have accepted multiple payments for a single purchase from one or multiple PayPal accounts.
You must not have shipped internationally outside of the Seller Protection Policy.
You must provide us with reasonable proof-of-shipment that can be tracked online. This documentation must show that you shipped to the buyer's confirmed address that is displayed on the Transaction Details page. Many carrier companies offer this service, including the U.S. Postal Service and Royal Mail.
You must also provide PayPal with complete information within 7 days of our request. However, if we are required by the credit card association to respond immediately to resolve a chargeback, you must provide the information within 3 days. We will indicate the response time required in the email message sent to the seller.

At this time, the Seller Protection Policy only covers U.S. or Canadian sellers when transacting with U.S. buyers, and U.K. sellers when transacting with U.K. or U.S. buyers. Please review our Seller Protection Policy, or view our Seller Protection Policy for more information.

www-labels4less-com · ‎11-21-2003

woops the $250 was under the seller protection program that differs. I think that protects against fraudulent use of credit cards.

atticmania · ‎11-21-2003

**I had a very upsetting chargeback experience recently that I am sure will interest you all.
After the chargeback was granted to my buyer
I then filed an appeal and made a few calls to Paypal directly - My appeal was denied and I received an email stating that my tracking was "invalid" meaning that delivery the status was not showing it as delivered. So, a couple of days passed & I emailed Paypal the following message
"I followed the rules that I felt should have protected me under the "SELLER protection policy" by providing you with a tracking number of **********ca shipped through Canada Post as well as providing Paypal with an
email that I received from the buyer that stated she had infact received the items, and phoned Paypal directly, for some reason my tracking number was not showing it as delivered and the chargeback appeal was denied. It now
shows that it was delivered (just for the record). And a quick update to let you know that the buyer not only has her money back but has the merchandise and again is not responding to my email requests for the merchandise to
be returned. It seems odd the the seller is held accountable for providing a tracking number but the buyer is not. I hope that I have presented the facts is a way that you can understand my frustration, Any chance that
we may reverse this chargeback."

**Here is their reply... "After some investigation your complaint, we had found that the tracking that was provided was indeed valid. As a result, we have granted
appeal of this buyer complaint, and removed it from your account. We regret to inform you however, that we are unable to reverse our decision regarding recovery. We recommend that you continue to work with the buyer in this case to reach an amicable resolution."

SELLER PROTECTION = NO RECOVERY Hmmmmmmm -interesting ?????

I am left with no choice but to accept this as a $$loss. Paypal CLEARLY states that they have a "SELLER protection Policy" as long as you follow their guidelines ..... well I did follow their rules to a "T" and was not protected.
I think we are on the right track here by offering suggestions - This is a real concern for us as Canadian PS'ers.
While I feel that "Buyer's Protection" is a good, well needed policy... I also think there should be a way that we, as SELLERS, should be protected a little better.
There are some great suggestions on this thread, keep them rolling in and hopefully Paypal will hear us.
If anyone is aware of a way that I can prevent this from happening again in the future, I would appreciate it.

shooger · ‎11-21-2003

It seems like there are two basic rules in order for one to be covered by the Seller Protection Policy.

1) You must not have shipped internationally outside of the Seller Protection Policy.

I find it odd that the Policy references ITSELF! That's like saying "The main rule is that you follow this rule." I think it should describe WHERE it defines as "outside of the policy". What good are incomplete guidelines, anyway?

2) You must provide us with reasonable proof-of-shipment that can be tracked online. This documentation must show that you shipped to the buyer's confirmed address that is displayed on the Transaction Details page.

Seems to me that even if you do this, you might not be covered. In my case (selling $2 to $10 items in small flat envelopes), it's impossible to ship using trackable, proof-of-shipment methods. If my item costs $4, can I charge $6 for shipping? Not likely, when the other sellers (mostly from the US) charge less than $2.

So it's neither possible nor effective for me to follow the guidelines.

atticmania · ‎11-21-2003

Shooger,
That is another very good point .... When shipping most Surface packages to the U.S through Canada Post a tracking number is not provided. ExpressPost to the US costs me around $11.00 and is trackable. In order to obtain a tracking number on 5 and 10 dollar purchases -we would have to charge an extra $5 to $10 for shipping...it just isn't feasable. Yet, with no tracking number, we have absolutely no defence againce chargebacks.
It would be nice if eBay/Paypal/Canada Post would take this into consideration.
I can't see why something similar to jaymor8's idea of having shipping forms stamped couldn't be put in place as proof-of-shipment ....

brownboxit · ‎11-21-2003

Attic you may have some salvation with the updated small packets from CP coming in the new year. I think they may have a tracking number option. (at least that's what the clerk thinks)

Getting dinged paying expedited minimums for stuff that should be sent small packet.. alas, no tracking which is required for safety taking CC cards on a merchant account.