Canada Post Government Study

[mr.elmwood]

"The House of Commons’ Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates (OGGO) would like to invite you to appear before the Committee in Winnipeg on Friday, October 21 from 8:30 a.m. until 9:30 a.m. in view of its study on Canada Post."

I get five minutes for a presentation and then they ask me questions.

Input. I need input. I really do not care what it is as I want all angles.

[momcqueen]

I really must disagree with you. I won't expend the efforts to point-by-point explain the reason I do disagree. I have listened to her testimony twice now, it was no difficult task, and I don't find it to be lacking in any way. 

I will however take you to task on the 'OMG' comment that you claim you heard. What is the time stamp for that? 

I am quite sure that if such a thing were uttered, it wasn't in respect to her testimony. These are professionals of which we are speaking and not unguarded junior high students in a cafeteria. If someone said this, I would sooner think it due to knocking over a glass of water than unbridled reaction to her testimony.

I will let you have the last word about this if it is important for you to do so, because I am working on new listings today. I can't afford the time to engage in debate with you over this so fire away, the floor is yours..... 

[tobyshitzu]

" why doesn't eBay alter its rules for Canadian sellers rather than asking Canada Post to solve a problem that eBay created?"

Ebay does have different rules for Canada and in no way forced anywaone to change how they mail anything, so I dont get that comment at all.  Tons successfully selling here y sending everything possible not tracked.

Agree ebay's continuing lobbying to raise the import threshold is working completely against the interests of its Canadian sellers 

I'd love for them to have a slower service for lower cost.  Always used USA small packet surface until it went.  There is just no way CP is going to offer anything at a lower cost with the state of their finances

[rose-dee]

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@toby**bleep**zu wrote:

 " why doesn't eBay alter its rules for Canadian sellers rather than asking Canada Post to solve a problem that eBay created?"

Ebay does have different rules for Canada and in no way forced anywaone to change how they mail anything, so I dont get that comment at all.  Tons successfully selling here y sending everything possible not tracked.

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Although you are right that some timelines differ for Canadian deliveries, the mechanics of the "on-time delivery" policy are essentially the same as for U.S. sellers: if a non-tracked parcel arrives late and the buyer says so when leaving FB, you get a defect.  

EBay could easily make a few concessions to Canadian sellers in their policy in order to relieve us of a lot of the risk, instead of shifting the onus for remedies onto the Canadian government.  

Which in turn would make all these asks by eBay of Canada Post completely unnecessary.

[tobyshitzu]

Its not close to the same, americans need 90% domestic transactions with tracking uploaded to get the 20% discount, and have a lower % late threshold.  Ebay has adapted to CP by not requiring tracking at all in Canada

[rose-dee]

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@toby**bleep**zu wrote:

Its not close to the same, americans need 90% domestic transactions with tracking uploaded to get the 20% discount, and have a lower % late threshold.  Ebay has adapted to CP by not requiring tracking at all in Canada

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While it's true that eBay doesn't require tracking of Canadians in order to maintain TRS, I wasn't referring to the different TRS programmes (which doesn't necessarily impact most Canadian sellers), but to how the on-time delivery policy creates defects at the source.  

EBay could come up with solutions to help Canadian sellers avoid defects while continuing to use the Light/Small Packet Air services to the U.S.  We did just fine with those services before eBay's on-time delivery metric was introduced.  EBay doesn't want to alter their own rules if they believe Canada Post or the Canadian government can solve the problems for them. 

This idea of "tiered speed" services is a dangerous one for eBay to float if they expect their Canadian sellers to remain competitive in a world where U.S. buyers are accustomed to fast domestic shipping.  Andrea Stairs was talking about ground (trucked) services at one point.  Is she seriously suggesting our U.S. customers, in say, California, will be happy waiting up to 3 weeks to get a parcel? 

[rose-dee]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:

I really must disagree with you. I won't expend the efforts to point-by-point explain the reason I do disagree. I have listened to her testimony twice now, it was no difficult task, and I don't find it to be lacking in any way. 

I will however take you to task on the 'OMG' comment that you claim you heard. What is the time stamp for that? 

I am quite sure that if such a thing were uttered, it wasn't in respect to her testimony. These are professionals of which we are speaking and not unguarded junior high students in a cafeteria. If someone said this, I would sooner think it due to knocking over a glass of water than unbridled reaction to her testimony. 

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I somehow didn't expect you'd see it my way, but that's OK.  I don't have any more time today either to go on about this, except to say that I was no more impressed by Andrea Stairs' remarks to the Commission than I was by her smoke and mirrors performance at the CBC interview a few months ago.  I sincerely hope the Committee is smart enough to see through and ignore most of what she has said. 

I'm afraid you may have to listen to Stairs' submission again if you want to hear the OMG gasp of disbelief I mentioned.  I didn't make a note of the point at which it occurred on the timeline, and I really don't have the time or inclination to go through the presentation again to find it.  

What I can tell you is that the outburst came from the Chair himself, somewhere close to the end, following an exchange with Alupa Clarke about the "tiered" services Stairs was suggesting, and, more directly, in response to Stairs describing how Canada Post needs to stop focusing on what she called other "distractions".  She had to be bluntly reminded at another point in the proceedings that eBay isn't the only stakeholder in this process. I guess eBay considers it owns the commercial world in Canada.  

I imagine Stairs did realize how far she had gone, since she acknowledged the Chairman's reaction with a sheepish smile and a "Sorry!".  

[momcqueen]

If you take the time to listen again, I think you'll discover the reference to 'sorry' was due to the chairman allowing her to go overtime. 

[cumos55]

Canada Post has never had it easy....

Just found a book about Canada post during the 1970's....

The first thought to establish a Crown Corporation was in 1968....  That was withdrawn... and then started again in 1980.

and... We know Canada Post as a Crown Corporation....

This current review in 2016  is perhaps a response to the history of Canada post  over the 1970's.

The cover of the book........ 

A most interesting title....  Did it predict the death of Canada Post?   No ...  Canada Post is still here.....

.

[momcqueen]

That looks like an interesting book. Will you be listing it to sell?

[cumos55]

Canada Post must adjust to the world of Parcels, letters and more....

This review  will make Canada Post  a new corporation... fully ready to meet the needs of today....

The biggest  barrier  to Canada Post  will most likely be the union... the same as it was before September 1.

(and hopefully...  the Prime Minister will not  function as a barrier) 

The review must take care of Canada Post... first....  and allow Canada Post to do what must be done... without question.

Many people will cry foul as they did in the book I found ....  and adjustments will be made.....as of 2016  and the future

We must all speak up... let Canada Post listen... and make appropriate adjustments  to meet the needs of ...all ...  Canadians.

Canada Post Corporation is our corporation.....  The people of Canada ...own .....this corporation

[rose-dee]

Yes, I can remember all the brouhaha over Canada Post in the 1970's.  If I recall, it was even more of a mess than today, there were so many diverse unions involved.  It seemed we were forever facing strikes. 

But those were the days when very few small, independent companies ran mail order businesses, home computers really didn't exist in any number, never mind the internet, people still paid their bills by mail and wrote actual letters, Eaton's (and to a lesser degree, Simpson's-Sears) had fleets of their own trucks in every town and city to deliver catalogue orders right to your door, and Canada Post strikes mostly affected people paying bills and waiting for cheques of one kind or another.  

The demise of Canada Post has been proclaimed for decades, yet they have managed to evolve and survive.  It is sometimes enlightening to have a glimpse back! 

[cumos55]

The book will get listed.....  Got lots to prepare and get  listed on eBay... may take a week or two....

[femmefan1946]

I recall an interview with a (female) vice president of Canada Post about two years ago who said that the future of Canada Post was in a return to parcel delivery.

In large part that was based on the disappearance of lettermail and paper billing.

She claimed that before WWI or so, most of what Canada Post carried was parcels, not envelopes. Which is interesting. I've seen a lot of bank tags from when CPO carried cash to and from bank branches, well before Brinks came on the scene.

[rose-dee]

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@femmefan1946 wrote:

She claimed that before WWI or so, most of what Canada Post carried was parcels, not envelopes. Which is interesting. 

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Yes, you're absolutely right, companies like Eaton's were in their heyday in the early part of the 20th century, and most of it went out across the country by rail and then postal delivery.  Anything and everything in the Eaton's catalogue was shipped by post -- corsets, shoes, suits, furniture, fine china, musical instruments, washing machines, and on and on.  A lot of Canadians at the time also had access to big U.S. retailers for catalogue ordering.  

This was an incredible convenience at a time when most women were tied to the home and automobiles were rare.  Much of the household equipment and attire could be ordered by catalogue and arrive within a couple of weeks.  There is no doubt many small town and rural folk in Canada got most of their household needs fulfilled this way prior to WWII.  City people were able to enjoy a trip to the downtown Eaton's store to browse through 5 or 6 floors of goods for their treasures, ferried up and down by white-gloved ladies in smart uniforms and hats, and -- at least in Toronto and other major centres -- enjoy high tea in the Palm Court restaurant at the top of the building.  A destination, in other words.  

Actually, as a child I can recall the excitement of the arrival of each new Eaton's catalogue and the thrill of being able to choose something from its pages, phone (or mail) in the order, then see that dark-coloured Eaton's truck pull up in the driveway several days later.  Of course, that was in the era after WWII.  Ahem.  

The replica 1902 Sears Robuck catalogue I have in my collection is 1150 pages long.  The fact that Eaton's (and other U.S.-based) retailers' catalogues became outhouse bumph afterward was witness to the pervasiveness and popularity of mail-order at the time. 

So I see the resurgence of Canada Post parcel service due to the internet-buying boom as being analogous to the catalogue-buying boom of the early 20th century.  Sorry to chatter on about it, but it's my area of historical focus. 

Of course in that period, getting a parcel by mail-order meant having to go to the nearest post office to pick it up.  Wal-Mart is doing something similar today, with its post-office pick-up option for internet orders.  Are they ahead of the times, or just digging up an old idea? 

[rose-dee]

OK, now you've got me on my favourite historical subject, here's a quote from "In Style -- 100 Years of Canadian Women's Fashions" by Caroline Routh, summarizing the general procedure of mail order at the time: 

"The opening of the west through the Canadian Pacific Railway made the whole Dominion available as clients [to Eaton's].  Widely circulated across the country, the Eaton's catalogue was referred to as "the wishing book" by struggling families.  Prices listed in it did not include shipping costs.  You could have your goods delivered quite cheaply by freight to your nearest railroad station, or sent by mail at a cost of about sixteen cents per pound in 1901.  Five cents extra guaranteed safe delivery.  By 1903 Eaton's catalogue operation had grown so large it was housed in its own building." 

Actually, when you consider that you can ship a 500gm parcel from Nova Scotia to California these days for about $11.00, and taking inflation into account over 115 years, our current prices don't seem too outrageous, given the distances and speeds (by air) at which parcels now travel. 

[cumos55]

The Canada Post book has been listed with the title 

Canada Post in the 1970's

The information from the dust jacket of this book should be an interesting read.   

[tobyshitzu]

.16 from 1914  (as far back as BOC  provides data) to now is only 3.43 adjusting for CPI inflation

[hlmacdon]

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@themodernowl wrote:

USPS is able to offer FREE electronic delivery confirmation for First Class International mail service ( small packets up to 4 pounds, and that includes Canada as a destination)  as long as the shipping label is printed on-line (not paid for at the postal counter) ... perhaps Canada Post can offer the same service for us to the US at least....?

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They do and the matching service is tracked packet. The problem is that for Canada Post the more affordable small/light packet services do not fall under the Post Expres program of the UPU. Rates are negotiated between members and Canada Post is probably in a tough position as their volume is very low in comparison. I also get the sense they are using these services as a profit center given the lack of competitive options domestically. The issue isn't the implementation, it is the reciprocal rate agreements.

[hlmacdon]

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@rose-dee wrote:

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@mjwl2006 wrote:

I am listening to Ms. Stairs testimony at the moment. [...] She is very well spoken. 

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She was asked directly how raising the de minimus would help Canadian sellers.  U.S. to re-sell from within Canada). 

Later she claimed that raising the Canadian de minimus would have the effect of increasing Canada Post parcel business.  On this point, when a Committee member asked her the logical question of whether the recent rise in the U.S. de minimus (it was raised from US$200 to US$800) had increased parcel levels for USPS, she was caught off guard, protesting her lack of knowledge about USPS, until the matter was out of time.  

If she was going to make this argument, she should have realized someone might draw the analogy.  Arguing for an increase in the Canadian de minimus, ostensibly as a reason for Canada Post to support it, is completely disingenuous on the part of eBay, and she likely knows it.  EBay HQ isn't pushing this for Canada Post's benefit, nor for the benefit of Canadian eBay sellers, but for the benefit of eBay's bottom line through U.S. eBay sellers (who provide the larger part of eBay's revenue stream). 

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It doesn't help Canadian sellers other than some minor administrative burden relief. For Canada Post they are likely losing money based on the reciprocal agreements currently in place. The principal beneficiaries of any de minimus rise would be primarily sellers in Asia, much more so than sellers in the US. The majority of ebay revenue is international sales of fixed price new inventory. I haven't looked at the ASPs but I'm sure it representative of lower cost merchandise.

If you look at their typical marketplace competitors they are an extreme logistics disadvantage in terms of cost and speed of delivery. You essentially have a large decentralized marketplace with no competitive logistics capability or cost advantage competing head to head domestically against competitors that have targeted centralized logistics with extreme cost advantages relative to the rest of the market. Growth is stunted when you lose on shipping speed AND cost. The most significant lever to drive growth with the current model is to continue to leverage sellers in Asia who have both a lower cost base for products and lower shipping costs. Reducing taxation barriers is the effective way of doing this, but to the detriment of domestic sellers. They have essentially backed themselves into this corner by destroying the auction marketplace model.

If you go back through any of the UPU discussions that are relevant to the ramifications of this scenario, you'll find USPS and others discussing the cost inefficiencies based on the renumeration they receive for delivery, which is essentially akin to having to deliver parcels at lettermail rates. There has been a concerted push for renegotiation of those rates, which is where services like epacket came from, but that is only a bandaid solution as it was a choice of losing less money versus turning it into a profitable part of the service. This is why you have also seen a push to no longer provide tracking for parcels sent via registered mail. In short you've had a large volume of lettermail class mailings being treated as parcels with tracking, but paid at lettermail rates. I'm sure you can probably dig up a number on what Canada Post receives to deliver international packages of this sort and I'd wager it isn't a profitable number. The flip side of that is you as a seller are probably subsidizing that loss by paying for uncompetitive outbound rates. Canada Post is profitable when outbound volume increases, not inbound volume.

I haven't read through all of eBay's presentation on the subject, but if the principal benefit for sellers being pushed around is the idea of a slower tracked service to the US and saving some paperwork then I just have to laugh. Acceptance scans for any barcoded mailings should be what is being pushed for. That goes along way to giving buyers some reassurance their item has been sent and solves the gong show that ebay has created with seller defects. The rest is UPU issues that ebay won't be able to effect.

[ypdc_dennis]

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@rose-dee wrote:

Yes, I can remember all the brouhaha over Canada Post in the 1970's.  If I recall, it was even more of a mess than today, there were so many diverse unions involved.  It seemed we were forever facing strikes. 

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43 unions (or there-abouts) in the mid-1970's

Many were across government departments rather than post office specific.

As a co-op student I knew half the post office members of one union (3 of 6) and all the members of another (4 of 4). They didn't have any bargaining power, the post office preferred to go straight to binding arbritration.

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