eBay

ra_prok · ‎01-06-2015

I have shipped about 20 xbox games via oversized letterpost for $2.20 worth of postage. Now Canada Post lost one, the most expensive one I've sold ($30). The buyer says he didn't get it and I have no reason to doubt him, just as he has no reason to doubt that I put it in the mail.

I've called CP, opened a ticket, and they said because I didn't get tracking or insurance, there is nothing they can do. I'll refund his money because I'm a trusting person but is there anything else I can do? Does ebay or paypal provide seller insurance for stuff like this or is it my bad because I didn't get tracking? I can't find anything in their documentation.

I just can't sell a video game on ebay and charge $10 shipping for a trackable package... that's just dumb. Most of my games only sell for $15!

Did I just learn a $30.00 lesson?

tobyshitzu · ‎01-06-2015

nothing you can do

If you are still using $2.20, you are using long out of date rate and have been getting quite a deal

rose-dee · ‎01-06-2015

@ra_prok wrote:

Did I just learn a $30.00 lesson?

I'm afraid you did. And you will get a defect, regardless of the refund, although refunding immediately will save you from an opened INR case, which is even worse.

There is no easy answer to this dilemma. Before the defect system, an immediate, cheerful refund would lose you money but at least might save you from negative FB and poor DSRs.

That's no longer the case. EBay's policies have made it very difficult for small sellers to sell items of lower value. You either need higher value items to justify tracked shipping, or you need to have a large enough volume of sales to absorb the defects. As I've been saying this year, smaller volume sellers shouldn't expect any more favours from eBay. They are focused on making business easy, automated and streamlined for the biggest sellers.

Although it's little consolation for you now, one thing I can tell you is that it seems that letter mail within Canada is moving at a snail's pace right now. I suspect this has to do with CP letting go all those extra hands it hired prior to the Xmas rush. This has probably created a bottleneck that will take another week or so to clear out. I ordered a small item (sent by the seller by letter mail from BC) just before Christmas that still hasn't arrived. I'm going to give it another week before I take any steps, but not all buyers are as understanding.

I have a feeling your item will probably show up on the buyer's doorstep next week. When you do the refund, ask the buyer if he'd kindly let you if it does show up so you can re-invoice him. Not all buyers do, but it's worth mentioning. You will get a defect for the refund, but at least you won't have lost the item and your money.

ra_prok · ‎01-06-2015

@rose-dee wrote:
@ra_prok wrote:

Did I just learn a $30.00 lesson?
I'm afraid you did. And you will get a defect, regardless of the refund, although refunding immediately will save you from an opened INR case, which is even worse.

There is no easy answer to this dilemma. Before the defect system, an immediate, cheerful refund would lose you money but at least might save you from negative FB and poor DSRs.

That's no longer the case. EBay's policies have made it very difficult for small sellers to sell items of lower value. You either need higher value items to justify tracked shipping, or you need to have a large enough volume of sales to absorb the defects. As I've been saying this year, smaller volume sellers shouldn't expect any more favours from eBay. They are focused on making business easy, automated and streamlined for the biggest sellers.

Although it's little consolation for you now, one thing I can tell you is that it seems that letter mail within Canada is moving at a snail's pace right now. I suspect this has to do with CP letting go all those extra hands it hired prior to the Xmas rush. This has probably created a bottleneck that will take another week or so to clear out. I ordered a small item (sent by the seller by letter mail from BC) just before Christmas that still hasn't arrived. I'm going to give it another week before I take any steps, but not all buyers are as understanding.

I have a feeling your item will probably show up on the buyer's doorstep next week. When you do the refund, ask the buyer if he'd kindly let you if it does show up so you can re-invoice him. Not all buyers do, but it's worth mentioning. You will get a defect for the refund, but at least you won't have lost the item and your money.

Thank you very much for the info. In the case communication, I asked the buyer to give it until Jan 16, 2015 to see if it will show up. After that, I said I'd refund his money if he agreed to wait until then. If he does not, I'll do like you said and refund his money with the expectation that I'll re-invoice him if it does show up. Best case is that he just waits another 10 days and it shows up or at least waits another 10 days before he wants a refund.

Too bad about ebay... I remember the good old days when it was mostly small sellers.

I'll take you experienced advice to heart if I decide to sell again, thanks for it.

pierrelebel · ‎01-06-2015

"Too bad about ebay... I remember the good old days when it was mostly small sellers."

???

eBay has little to do with it. Small sellers or large sellers ---- it makes no difference.

Mail order (direct marketing) has always worked on the same principle: the buyer pays, the seller ships. If the buyer does not receive the item or it arrives damaged, the buyer gets the money refunded (or the seller sends a replacement if available). End of story.

It has worked that way for hundreds of years, well before the days of eBay and online shopping.

Buyers need protection. They need assurances that they will get what they paid for. Otherwise the whole mail order business, including online shopping, would collapse.

I have been in the mail order business for well over twenty-five years, shipping worldwide, and a small percentage of shipments will get lost or damaged (much less than 1%) every year. It is a simple cost of doing business.

pierrelebel · ‎01-06-2015

PS - Many sellers shipping mostly by lettermail or letterpost where no insurance is offered by Canada Post promote the concept of self-insurance or "cookie jar" insurance.

Basically, if your items typically sell for $15 to $35 each ($25 average) put a quarter ($0.25) in your "insurance cookie jar" for every shipment.

Every time you have to pay a claim to a buyer for non-receipt or damage, you pay the claim to yourself from your cookie jar.

If your claims average as much as one percent (1%) over the years, you are never really out-of-pocket!

It is much better and cheaper than paying Canada Post or a third party insurer.

Anonymous · ‎01-06-2015

With $30.00 item, I would pay for Expedited (across Canada) for about $10.00 to $13.00) or Tracked Packet (if to USA) which is about $14.50 with insurance and tracking number.

tobyshitzu · ‎01-06-2015

@Anonymous wrote:
With $30.00 item, I would pay for Expedited (across Canada) for about $10.00 to $13.00) or Tracked Packet (if to USA) which is about $14.50 with insurance and tracking number.

You would never make any money selling here

rose-dee · ‎01-06-2015

@ra_prok wrote:

Too bad about ebay... I remember the good old days when it was mostly small sellers.

Yes, it's too bad that eBay has turned away from its original core of independent, home-based sellers. Their policies and rules used to take those type of sellers mainly into account.

But they've obviously made the decision that they now want to make selling here easiest for their biggest retailers (just look at the ads they run and you'll know what their focus really is). It's also probably easier for eBay to manage a few hundred big professional retailers than having to deal with thousands upon thousands of little 'amateur' sellers who can be trouble-makers. It's a question of who they wanted to tailor their policies to, and so it's become more of a struggle for us "boutique sellers".

It reminds me of what happened to all those interesting little independent shops in towns where Wal-Mart moved in. A very few managed to survive, but most folded up and left.

My theory has been that eBay will come to regret making selling so much more risky and difficult for its foundation of millions of smaller sellers, since they are the ones who will stay for years if conditions are beneficial for them. The big guys -- well, I think once they've had their experiment on eBay, they'll abandon the site for greener pastures (or their own websites).

femmefan1946 · ‎01-06-2015

they said because I didn't get tracking or insurance, there is nothing they can do. I'll refund his money

But if you have sold dozens of other items and the shipping charge covered the cost of postage and packaging, then losing one item which may have sold for $30 but cost you much less*, is made up for by the profits on those.

We must never look at a single item to decide the profitability of a business, but at the bottom line, weekly, monthly and annually.

There are some companies that offer one-off insurance on shipments. I understand, never having used it, that shipinsurance is reliable and charges about $1.00 to insure a parcel or Light Packet.

*If it didn't cost you much less, you are doing this wrong.

recped · ‎01-06-2015

Yes, it's too bad that eBay has turned away from its original core of independent, home-based sellers.

Do you mean the ones that had this sort of stuff in their listings?

"not responsible for packages lost in the mail"

"no refunds without insurance"

"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915
- answering Trolls is voluntary, my policy is not to participate.

rose-dee · ‎01-07-2015

@recped wrote:

Do you mean the ones that had this sort of stuff in their listings?

"not responsible for packages lost in the mail"
"no refunds without insurance"

No actually, I was thinking of sellers like you and me and many other smaller sellers on these boards, who have made customers happy and played by the rules for years. Probably most of those people work out of their homes, yet have had to compete on an ever-shifting field with dimensions re-designed (by eBay) after 2012 to suit much bigger players.

I'm sure those supremely clever and creative minds at eBay could have come up with policies over the past 3 years that supported its boutique sellers while also restraining the types you mention above if they had really wanted to. Instead eBay decided to direct its corporate mind, particularly since about 2012, to tailoring policies and rules (and incidentally, the functioning of the site itself) to meet the needs and desires of its highest volume sellers and commercial retailers.

I'm not guessing at this premise; as I've said on other occasions, it came straight from the horse's mouth (however inadvertently it may have been), one day at a Wed. board meeting. The remark went relatively unnoticed as part of a larger discussion, but I've never forgotten it, and I keep it at top of mind as I carry on selling here.

rose-dee · ‎01-07-2015

By the way, regarding that remark I referred to above that was made at a Wed. board meeting -- I went back the following day to copy and paste it into a post here, and it had been removed.

Clearly that statement was a gaffe that nobody wanted left out in the open. It's not often eBay lets slip its real intentions.

pjcdn2005 · ‎01-07-2015

@rose-dee wrote:
@recped wrote:

Do you mean the ones that had this sort of stuff in their listings?

"not responsible for packages lost in the mail"
"no refunds without insurance"
No actually, I was thinking of sellers like you and me and many other smaller sellers on these boards, who have made customers happy and played by the rules for years. Probably most of those people work out of their homes, yet have had to compete on an ever-shifting field with dimensions re-designed (by eBay) after 2012 to suit much bigger players.

I'm sure those supremely clever and creative minds at eBay could have come up with policies over the past 3 years that supported its boutique sellers while also restraining the types you mention above if they had really wanted to. Instead eBay decided to direct its corporate mind, particularly since about 2012, to tailoring policies and rules (and incidentally, the functioning of the site itself) to meet the needs and desires of its highest volume sellers and commercial retailers.

I'm not guessing at this premise; as I've said on other occasions, it came straight from the horse's mouth (however inadvertently it may have been), one day at a Wed. board meeting. The remark went relatively unnoticed as part of a larger discussion, but I've never forgotten it, and I keep it at top of mind as I carry on selling here.

I agree that ebay tends to create policies that are one size fits all I honestly don't feel that their policies are meant to isolate or eliminate small sellers. However, they don't always seem to realize or think ahead about how some policies will negatively affect the good sellers.

I believe that the remark 'from the horse's mouth' that you are referring to was made about one policy in answer to a comment or a question by another poster. The rep agreed with the poster that the policy being discussed might benefit larger sellers more but did not say or suggest that the new policies were being implemented for the benefit of the larger sellers.

007steveb16 · ‎01-07-2015

@Anonymous wrote:
With $30.00 item, I would pay for Expedited (across Canada) for about $10.00 to $13.00) or Tracked Packet (if to USA) which is about $14.50 with insurance and tracking number.

99% of buyers wouldn't pay that though. Especially not, "Gamers"...

rockp5233 · ‎01-07-2015

... I'm curious to know more about that statement ... 😉

rose-dee · ‎01-07-2015

pjcdn2005 wrote:

"I agree that ebay tends to create policies that are one size fits all I honestly don't feel that their policies are meant to isolate or eliminate small sellers. However, they don't always seem to realize or think ahead about how some policies will negatively affect the good sellers."

Unfortunately I can't agree. I don't see eBay as being quite so naive (or stupid). They do make blunders, and sometimes roll out policies before all consequences are fully considered.

However, there are underlying agendas and purposes that none of us ordinary folk will ever know, but we can see the general trend. In my view that trend is not one-size-fits-all, but rather that all sellers are being made to toe the line under policies that were conceived primarily for the benefit of the bigger retailers. If that weren't the case, I would not have noticed Rodney's faux pas with such clarity, nor would it have been quickly removed from the board. The door opened just a crack, and was quickly shut again.

I don't want to repeat my reasons here for my views on eBay's focus, but I set some of them out in Post #9 of this thread: http://community.ebay.ca/t5/Seller-Central/Not-Easy-to-Sell-on-eBay/td-p/286977

"I believe that the remark 'from the horse's mouth' that you are referring to was made about one policy in answer to a comment or a question by another poster. The rep agreed with the poster that the policy being discussed might benefit larger sellers more but did not say or suggest that the new policies were being implemented for the benefit of the larger sellers."

Actually, that is exactly what Rodney said, or I would not have been so alarmed. And doubtless that is precisely why it was removed from the board with such haste.

The discussion concerned a seller's complaints about the difficulty a policy change would cause, but Rodney rationalized it by saying that the policy was designed to accommodate larger sellers. A horse of a completely different colour.

rose-dee · ‎01-07-2015

To add to the above, here are a few of the common arguments against assuming eBay is focusing on its largest sellers, and my responses.

1) "Small sellers still make up the vast majority of sellers on eBay" -- Probably quite true, but does eBay believe they are the group that can make it the most money in the fastest time? I doubt it. It also stands to reason that eBay spends less time and customer service salaries on the few hundred big retailers it has than on the complaints and problems that a portion of the millions of smaller, "amateur" sellers on its site may have.

Focusing policy on its bigger retailers while at the same time ensuring the small ones who do stay are obliged to conduct business within strict bounds if they want to keep selling, is a cost-saving measure. Fewer problems, fewer complainers, fewer CS people required. I wouldn't be surprised to see CS disappear completely in a couple of years. Remember when you used to be able to email a problem to someone who actually understood eBay policies and spoke English?

2) "Why would eBay continue to encourage people to sign up as new sellers if it only wants to support big sellers?" My premise is not that eBay only wants to support its big sellers, but that its policies and rules are designed to best accommodate them, first and foremost. The rest of us have to come up to the mark, even if it is costly or difficult to do so. The alternative is to leave (or be ejected from the site for ignoring the writing on the wall). EBay's mass ejections, so widely publicized this past year, have probably also helped to reduce the ranks of small sellers.

So, why not encourage newbies? Each one who signs up represents an immediate new income stream once they list and sell, and replaces the revenue lost from the ejected sellers. A new seller is a clean slate to attract buyers. And if those naive newbies get restricted or kicked off the site for their ignorance of eBay rules? Well, there are always millions more to attract. Some may come up to the mark and stay for a while, some may go, but it's an almost limitless source of fresh meat.

3) "How can you possibly define what a 'small seller' is"? Well, I think eBay has defined the line between "small seller" and "big seller" quite clearly. Its defect system is set up so that anyone with more than 400 transactions in a 3 month period gets to wipe the slate clean every 90 days. The rest of us drag our punishments around for a year. I have no doubt that eBay has also defined its largest sellers (the likes of Target) through special agreements that provide benefits none of us will ever know about.

What I call a "boutique" or smaller seller is a bit harder to define, but likely still represents the majority of sellers on eBay. These are the people who are committed to selling on eBay, whether OOAK, collectible, manufactured, re-purposed, recycled or home-made items, making a profit (but not a killing) on eBay sufficient for their personal requirements, mostly working from a home office set-up of some kind, without a stable of employees, and trying to stay in business on eBay despite the ever-increasing burdens of rules, policies and postal/shipping costs.

4) 'Why stay if it's no longer a good place for you as a small seller?" That, my friends, is the $64,000 question, which will only be answered with each successive Spring/Fall Seller Update.

I'm sorry to sound so cynical. I used to be a complete enthusiast about eBay, but many things in the past 3 years have suppressed that optimism. Now I'm a realist.

rose-dee · ‎01-07-2015

One more thought (and then I'll go away) --

My personal view is that although eBay turned its ship around so drastically, beginning in 2011, in order to accommodate those big retailers who joined up, and perhaps attract others, it may have done so at the cost of its long-term viability.

People like me -- and probably many hundreds of thousands of other sellers -- will stay for years selling on this site if conditions are beneficial for a small business.

Big retailers, on the other hand, may have their own agendas and simply leave after they're finished playing in eBay's backyard. Yeah, yeah, eBay is no doubt making money hand over fist at the moment with sellers who can turn over thousands of transactions in a month, but what happens when they start to feel the ride is no longer smooth, and jump ship (to extend the above analogy)?

EBay decided about 3 years ago it wanted to look and act like any other big commercial online site -- just take a glance at the ads they run for current proof -- and their shareholders are probably delighted with the short-term gains. Still, if eBay continues to alienate, upset, frustrate, anger and confuse its original core of small, independent sellers, it won't have a foundation left to stand on if enough of those mega-merchants go elsewhere.

reallynicestamps · ‎01-07-2015

But all eBay shareholders are only in the stock for short term gains.

Since the company doesn't pay dividends, no matter how much money they make, the only way a stockholder can make money is to buy when the stock is low and sell when it is high.

And, it is worth noting, none of that 'stock market' money goes to the company, although eBay employees who get stock or stock options as part of their wages make money on the stock market swings.

The whole company could disappear tomorrow in the eyes of these gamblers, so long as they got out of the stock in time.

As for the big retailers , at last municipal and provincial governments are catching on to the demands of companies who want subsidies to move to an area. Then when the subsidy period is over, the company is gone, off to the next subsidy, leaving empty buildings and unemployed workers behind, plus a tax-starved government which cannot afford to support the social needs of its population.

rose-dee-- EBay considers someone with just under five* sales a day to be a Big Seller? Gosh.

*400 sales in three months.