Diary of An Unfortunate Ebay Transaction......

[tea_past_times]

JUNE 12TH

Cup & Saucer Auction for Paragon China Cup and saucer ends with a winning bid $46.05 Hooray.

JUNE 13TH

Mailed cup and saucer, paid a little extra out of my own pocket to ship it quicker.

JUNE 18TH

Receive the following email:

Dear tea_past_times,

We have not left feedback on this item yet. My wife found a chip under the outside edge of the saucer. A small portion of the edge was painted over, but the small chip is visible underneath. You probably missed it. The cup is beautiful otherwise. May we return it for credit? Thanks, RXXXXt CXXXXX

JUNE 19TH

I Reply:

You are welcome to return it, when it has arrived back to us, safely, we will credit your paypal account a full refund. Have a nice day. - PHIL

JUNE 20TH

Received the following email:

Dear Phil:
Thank you for authorizing return and credit on this item. We mailed it today 6/20/08 at the local US Post Office. The clerk estimated delivery to you in five to ten days. Required US customs form was submitted. Thanks, RXXXXX CXXXXX.


JUNE 24TH

Received the following email:

Dear tea_past_times,

Are we blocked from bidding on your items because we have a pending return for credit? I wait to give positive feedback when the credit is confirmed. Thanks, RXXXXX XXXXXX


JUNE 24TH

I responded:

Dear rXXXXXXXXX,

We don't make any money taking returned items and paying for the postage out of our own pocket. We are a very small operation, and the 46.00 we are going to give you back, plus postage is enough of a dent in our budget for this month. We are two elderly persons on a disability pension, doing Ebay when we can to make a little extra grocery money. We had no idea we would be out over $60.00 this month because of a little mark under the paint on a cup and saucer. I can't ever take the chance again that you might be unhappy with something we ship. Sorry about that, but I can't afford to cover postage on stuff like that. We are doing it for you this time, but that is it. In 4 years,(and 3000 items) we have only had 3 returned items. Since Ebay changed the feedback rules, we are getting a lot more requests to return. We may have to quit altogether soon, if things don't improve. I'm not buying any more items, once my inventory is gone. So, we have a new policy, return it if you must, but we add all return ID's to the blocked bidder. You and everyone else gets a free shot at our feedback profile if you are not happy, all we have left is blocked bidder. I'm already losing the original 11 dollars you paid for shipping, plus whatever you paid for shipping to send it back, plus we are losing 46 dollars, I'd already made plans for. Don't worry though, there are still lot's of china sellers on Ebay, (right now) Let me say though, we bear you no ill will, and think you are a fine seller, with a fine reputation, and we wish you well. BUT we have lost all the money we can ever afford to doing business with any ID. Have a pleasant evening, we look forward to your return, and when we observe the fault as you have described it, we will credit your Paypal account with the item cost, postage to ship, and return postage. We even get to eat the taxes on the shipping. So no cost to you on that. Happy Ebaying, as long as Ebay still exists. - PHIL & KATHY

[dipmicro]

Why would be buyer interested to read all that? They simply want to return defective item.

Now get this:

There is a seller here on eBay operating from China. We had little trouble with them and we have done business for 5-10k over the last year. I got comfortable and placed the order for 100pcs of electronic products. We previously purchased 20pcs of this item and it was great. Then they supplied some extras which we did not need, so I told them to strip away extras.

They delivered 100pcs ... of PCB assemblies without product enclosures. And that is not all, 90% are defective due to wrongly substituted components. No testing has been done on these units. I asked

- What about product enclosures?
- You need to purchase the enclosures.
- What are you going to do about defective items.
- We are working on it.

There was no reasoning with these guys. I cancelled all my pending orders and will not be bringing any more business to these guys. And ... I am $1,800 short on this order so far. Wasted entire weekend troubleshooting the damn thing so I can harvest. Currently I am able to modify them so 1/2 of the units will work.

So you are short $60 this month, because you shipped chipped product to the customer and they dared to return it. Poor thing.

[cajunfox]

To some people $60 is a lot.

I could say "poor thing" to you over $1,800 when I've been stuck eating $30,000 on a memory order that fedex and US customs destroyed, because the US government has some goofy xenophobic vendetta against large imports of Korean-made DRAM.

Bad buyer experiences are bad buyer experiences. Me, I don't "get" why someone would care about an insignificant nick in a teacup saucer which is likely going to rot in a display case containing "the good china" which no-one is ever allowed to use, until its owner passes away and leaves it all to their children who'll auction it all off (on eBay!!) or send it all to the dump. Such a buyer probably can't sleep at night knowing they paid the princely sum of forty-six dollars and five cents for a teacup and saucer which has a tiny chip somewhere where it would never be noticed by anyone unless they were looking for defects. Such a buyer should not be buying antiques at all, frankly they should probably not even be allowed to engage in commerce at all - but that's my acerbic opinion created after years of dealing with hagglers and pedantic people in the used computer parts industry. Maybe the used antique teacup and saucer industry holds sellers and buyers to much loftier standards.

[recped]

Maybe the used antique teacup and saucer industry holds sellers and buyers to much loftier standards.

Ah NO, when I buy something I want it to be in the condition it was claimed to be by the seller, doesn't matter what it is. "tiny", who said it was tiny? and even if it is it reduces the value by at least 50%

[faerywishes]

I see you made this about you again dipmicro. Clearly your empathy leaves a lot to be desired. Whether or not the buyer reads it all is up to them. At least tea tried to explain the reasons for the block.

[fatdane]

When a buyer wants to return a stamp I cheerfully tell them that it can be returned for any reason for a full refund. If when I get the stamp back I find that the reason for a return is a bit "strange" they go onto my blocked bidder list. Life is to short to try to argue with "difficult" hard to please customers.

We also sell a few China and Glassware items, and a chip on an item is something that should be in the description. A sound cup will have a nice "ring' when tapped with a pen, and it only takes a few seconds to run fingers around the rim to check for chips, and in our experience the rim of the cup is where most chips will be. In a case where the return cost is going to be fairly expensive maybe it would be better to ask the customer if they would accept a partial refund and keep the cup and saucer. The seller is out some money, but handling the full refund and dealing with further communication from the customer is going to eat up time which can be used for selling to others.

[tea_past_times]

I guess you are all missing the point that this customer said the chip was UNDER THE PAINT!!! How does a chip exist UNDER PAINT. If china is chipped, the chip is white, like the china, not painted like the pattern. In other words, what the buyer suggests is not possible and they are trying to extort a partial refund. There was, and is, nothing wrong with this item, and they will likely never return it. We have only ever had 3 items returned in 4 years. We would not have listed a chipped item without mentioning it first. Maybe some of you should THINK before posting.

ONLY Cajunfox gets it. Thanks for your post friend.

-PHIL

[recped]

How does a chip exist UNDER PAINT

A small portion of the edge was painted over

We have only ever had 3 items returned in 4 years.

Since Ebay changed the feedback rules, we are getting a lot more requests to return

[lina-mallows]

tea_past_times- as a long time collector- and current seller of china mugs on eBay- I am fully aware of 'chips' existing under the glaze.
From antique china, to modern off the shelf items, various manufacturing defects exist. It's the very nature of the manufacturing process.
Bone china tends toward higher quality, and a better finish than porcelain. Ironstone, and similar body materials like DENBY uses, are more prone to small underglaze chips, especially at the base. The way they are fired causes the glaze to run over the bottom edge, and they are ground down accordingly. These type of material are not always set on glazing points, as bone china is. And, in the case of glazing points, there may often be small chips at the point where the plate is released from the points. Very common- though clearly of manufacturing origin.


If I am, to understand correctly- your buyer never claimed anything other a chip under the painted design, that was not mentioned in the description.
That's all. There was no mention of damage from use- just this clearly visible (to them) manufacture's pre-existing 'problem. I can see how some buyer's may be upset. And yes- the item will likely never be used, and only displayed. (I have thousands of pieces, and full sets, I have never used. I have loaned them out over the years for display- and had several full tea sets in the King Edward Hotel (here in Toronto), displayed in their large breakfronts.
However, collectors can be the pickiest of all buyers, and some absolutely need to be handled with kid gloves. That's the nature of dealing with collectors. We do it every day.

Any defect like this is clearly as a result of manufacturing, though no less a 'distraction' to some, may or may not be a valid grounds for return. I run my fingers over the edge, and around the base of the mugs we purchase for resale, at the time they are purchased. Small chips to the base are far more common than to the rim/edge, at least for the mugs we purchase. For us, its simply the way the mugs are fired, and finished- and we reject about half of those offered to us.

With antique items, being as picky would lead to almost nothing to collect.
As for an arbitrary statement that something is suddenly worth 50% less because of this type of "defect"- nonsense! In general, saucers have a far higher survival rate than cups. That's almost always the case- a cup's handle is the most fragile part. And- no one said that there was damage to the cup. Further- was/is the pattern readily available through any of the LARGE china replacement houses?
It may have been easier to replace the saucer through a third party, than to go through the trouble of returning everything.
Before offering a FULL REFUND upon return, I may have suggested sending them a PERFECT?? saucer (if available)- and thus have fulfilled all your obligations to the buyer.

I have to question one small point, I may be misunderstanding- The BUYER wrote: "A small portion of the edge was painted over, but the small chip is visible underneath."
I am presuming this was a MANUFACTURING DEFECT- and nothing more.
Was the BUYER alleging something else- like deception, in that the damage was concealed by being painted over- AFTER being damaged, post manufacture?

P.S. There are some pretty unsympathetic people here- and they likely won't be around much longer. No love lost! So, why worry?

[lina-mallows]

tea_past_times-
FYI- should this be helpful in the future- here is the information regarding what I believe is the PARAGON pattern for the C&S in question:


Item#: 269924 --- Manufacturer Status: Not Known
Pattern: F104E by PARAGON [PARF104E] Pattern #: F104E
Description: MAROON BAND W/GOLD SCROLLS,SCALLOPED

[tea_past_times]

The defect - if it exists(I don't have the item back yet) would have to be a very minor maker's fault(from when it was made.) We don't ever attempt to paint anything(I'm no artist) And you are correct if a collector of antique china was looking for perfect, there would be nothing to collect. My description said Excellent, no chips, no cracks, no crazing. A maker's flaw is something else entirely. Obviously Paragon China did not think the flaw was of concern or THEY would either not have sold it or marked the back with a red X and sold it as a second, which they didn't. If Paragon considered it first quality, what does that say? I enjoyed reading your comments Lina, thanks for taking the time to write. - PHIL

[tea_past_times]

You know what would be fun?? I'll post a picture of the item in here, when I get it back, on this thread and we'll let one and all comment on whether they would return it or not. Cause if I missed it, it has to be microscopic.

[wkiffin]

Get over it!

[faerywishes]

Gee another wonderfully expressed opinion. I almost missed it in their 3 word paragraph. 🙂

[dipmicro]

I could say "poor thing" to you over $1,800 when I've been stuck eating $30,000

Wow! That for some people in this country is the year's salary.

I still don't understand how is the OP "short" of $60 when the buyer is actually returning the item? It can still be sold.

I see you made this about you again dipmicro. Clearly your empathy leaves a lot to be desired. Whether or not the buyer reads it all is up to them. At least tea tried to explain the reasons for the block.

Well, you are right, I did. Sorry for the boring story, although I thought it fits the topic. But perhaps we should just read here all the letters Phil sends out to his buyers.

Anybody else here tries to explain their buyers why they got blocked?

And sorry to be an ass shortly after I got ripped. I am sure you would be all cheered-up, faerywishes.

[faerywishes]

And sorry to be an ass shortly after I got ripped. I am sure you would be all cheered-up, faerywishes.

You would be absolutely wrong dipmicro. I don't want to see anyone ripped off no matter how little the money. Just don't minimize some one else's financial lose because you feel yours was greater.

I have been off work for almost 3 mths because of an illness. It took me 2 1/2 months to get into a specialist and then finally to be able to file short term papers. Finally on Monday I got paid for almost the last 3 mths. I had my phone disconnected, my cable, my car insurance cancelled, I was days away from losing my car, electricity, heat & internet. I had savings for 1 month of all my expenses and when that ran out nothing much got paid the last couple of months. So if I was tea $60.00 would have hurt me really badly. Ebay allowed me to be able to buy food for my daughter and myself. What I'm trying to say is what you think is miniscule and unimportant may really be huge for someone else. Learn to express genuine empathy and then more of us would be willing to listen when you are wanting to be heard. And I am very sorry that you took such a hit especially when you trusted the seller. That sucks big time.

[lina-mallows]

Here is an explanation given to a seller we blocked:

We do not issue, nor does any eBay seller issue 'strikes' against buyers.
(PLEASE NOTE- NOR did we initially leave a NEGATIVE feedback for you!
Any follow up feedback left does not change the rating accepted by eBay when calculating your feedback score.)

It is the buyer's actions with respect to eBay policy, as interpreted by eBay, that creates 'strikes' against a buyer.

Again, sellers do not issue strikes, and therefore cannot simply remove them.

That said- in general- single actions by a buyer do not generally get a buyer removed from eBay.
A pattern, as I am led to believe, first with educational bulletins, leading to warnings, then may result in temporary suspension, or removal from eBay.
eBay makes these decisions, and not any seller. MANY strikes lead to removal- not a single action.

We are unaware of the total number of reasons for eBay's decision regarding your account, and according to our user agreement with eBay- we are obligated to respect their decision and not engage in transactions with users who are 'no longer a registered user'.

-------------------------------------------
So, yes we have taken the time to explain to bidders why they are blocked.
I am going to post another one shortly. (If I can find it)

[lina-mallows]

Here is a question asked by a 'potential' bidder:
"Why are you blocking me from bidding on your items??? your XXXX-XXXXXXX doesn't ring a bell, who were you before??? My memory needs to be refreshed"

This was our reply- AND WE POSTED IT FOR ALL TO SEE !!!

Hi, We have always been XXXX-XXXXXXX here on eBay. A quick check of our eBay USER ID HISTORY will indicate this. REGARDING BLOCKING YOUR BIDS- eBay permits sellers to select the automatic blocking of bidders who do not specific criteria. Our criteria for bidding is established as follows: 1) Have received 2 Unpaid Item strike(s) within 12 Month(s). 2) Are registered in countries to which I don't ship 3) Have 4 Policy Violation report(s) within 6 Month(s). 4) Have a feedback score of -1 or lower THEREFORE- the blocking of your bids is based on eBay's knowledge of your account- and not any specific action on our part against you. While you show a 100% feedback rating- with no NEGATIVES; it appears you have TWO UNPAID ITEM strikes (or more) against you- that disqualifies you from bidding on our auctions. While we appreciate your desire to bid- we stand by eBay's automatic rejection of your bid based on your performance. If this automatic blocking is in error- and eBay is far from perfect- please contact eBay regarding this matter. Hopefully this answers your question.

[gifts_of_elegance]

When asked by a blocked bidder why he cannot bid on my items anymore, my answer is simple. "You must have really stressed me out. I promised myself that I would never deal again with people like that."

[cajunfox]

I don't block buyers unless they threaten me or are problem buyers who hint that they might bid on more items. A few people who gave me some trouble in the past have bid later on and had no problems. The list is just too time-consuming to prune or keep updated.

What would have made the new changes have some teeth for sellers would have been the ability to block buyers with ANY unpaid strikes in the last 30 days from bidding on items - thusly making buyers have a lot more incentive to pay. eBay's system protects them from sellers who change the terms on them or whatnot already. It would also seriously reduce the abilities of spree buyers who bid on dozens of items then don't pay for any of them.