Ebay and Paypal give me no help with a disputed claim. Any ideas?

[boneshakerscards]

Recently I have gone through a claim process with my wife that has made me want to pack up everything I have on Ebay and go somewhere else. Here's the reason why:

My wife upgraded her account to a seller account a month ago in order to sell some items off. Because she had no seller feed backs I decided to let her sell a few things from my store that I was going to put up for auction anyways to give her a feedback boost. She made the listings and four of them were bought by a certain buyer on May 30th. (I will withhold the user name for now in my description) Immediately after purchasing the items they sent a message asking for shipping discounts below what was listed. We refused saying it was what it was listed at. Buyer paid promptly 3 days later (June 2) and we shipped them out in a small packet on June 5. We would have sent them with tracking, but the amount the Post Office wanted was even higher than what they had paid so we sent it out as a normal small packet keeping the shipping receipt figuring that was good enough.

Two weeks go by and on June 21 we received 2 back to back emails from Ebay and PayPal about a buyer filing a non-received item dispute, then escalating it to a PayPal claim within 30 seconds. This caught me as both weird and strange since the buyer does both buy and sell the items purchased (Sports cards). We tried to take action on the claim file to discover we're only offered 3 options. Refund buyer, proof of refund sent, or provide tracking number. Well we don't have a tracking number, and I'm not gonna make a refund when a) not enough time may have gone by for item to be received and b) we have proof of the item being shipped.

We even sent the person a message letting him know about the shipping receipt and timeframe. 3 days later no response from him and I began to worry. So we called Ebay and then PayPal. Both agents we talked to "Ally" from Ebay, and "Derrick" from PayPal were both very helpful and agreed with us it does seem odd. As i explained, there is nothing preventing them from having already received the items, seeing that there was no tracking number and being upset we didn't offer a further shipping discount that he could go right ahead, bypass the dispute process giving us no chance of defending ourselves and escalating it to a claim where they know we really only have two options, full refund, or provide a tracking number which they KNOW does not exist.

This just smells like a total scam to me. "Derrick" told us to send an email to paypal with a scan of the original shipping receipt with can be added to the claim to help out and show that the items were in fact sent. We did this on Wed (June 24). No response from buyer or PayPal and no action taken either yet today. So I called back and I got "Matt" from PayPal. This guy didn't care to help us one bit and bluntly put it to us that the reason the scan was not added to the claim was because that should have happened during the dispute with Ebay anf not PayPal and we didn't. What dispute? It was 30 seconds before being escalated and then bluntly (and rudely) he told us that without a tracking number PayPal will automatically refund the buyer from our PayPal account and if we want any kind of seller protection, ALL ITEMS must be shipped with tracking or your plain out of luck!

This is ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. I sell sports cards online in an Ebay store and as i explained to this guy, no one will pay $8-11 in Canada or $13+ for tracking and shipping on items that are worth anywhere from $3-7 each. Someone is not going to win an auction for $1.99 on an 8 dollar card only to pay that in shipping, if I charge that I'll be out business next week. This guy didn't care and said that's the way it is.

I would guess 98-99% of all items sold on Ebay aren't expensive enough to warrant tracking numbers and super high shipping costs, nevermind buyers would never pay for it. Maybe it's less in the States, but not here in Canada and as this guy told me the shipping costs is not PayPal's concern. Well then how are sellers like myself and others exposed to protect ourselves from what potentially could be a fraudulent claim like I have no reason not to believe this is?? If we can't, then why should we do business in this marketplace? I won't, if anyone can help me out, or Miriam if your reading this, any ideas please help. If not, I will pack up my store along with the hundreds of dollars Ebay and PayPal make from it in fees a month and take it elsewhere since there is NOTHING preventing buyers from taking advantage of this and ripping off sellers left and right.

[recped]

so we sent it out as a normal small packet keeping the shipping receipt figuring that was good enough.

Small packet includes $100 of insurance against loss, file a claim with Canada Post.

You are selling cheapo sports cards, you are going to encounter PITA buyers, goes with the territory I think.

Change your products or move up the ladder in value to get a better quality of buyer (perhaps).

there is NOTHING preventing buyers from taking advantage of this and ripping off sellers left and right.

Nothing except a buyer's ethics! I've shipped 20,000+ orders 99% without any form of tracking or delivery confirmation, to date I suspect I have had one case where I'm reasonably confident the buyer lied about non-receipt.

[surplusdealdude]

I'm wondering where in the ebay or Paypal policies it says, "These rules do not apply to you if you wish."

C'mon, you've been around long enough to know the rules - you ship with delivery confirmation or you take the chance of getting burned.

You lucked out a bunch of times and this time you got burned. Law of averages - it had to happen sometime.

Refund the money, block the twit and minimize your losses. -------------------------------------------------------------------

If there were in the world today any large number of people who desired their own happiness more than they desired the unhappiness of others, we could have paradise in a few years.
- Bertrand Russell

[dipmicro]

A month ago I have been scammed by a UK buyer for $70 so I did a bit of a research what tools are available. The guy also filed a claim, so I told him to refuse receiving the goods when he gets them (after refund they do not belong to him) and if I don't see no return nor payment from him in two months I would be filing stolen mail report with his local police and UK agency investigating online fraud - CIFAS. This seems like a empty threat but it isnt. It's as simple as sending the fax message or email.

This does not seem like much, but if someone does 3+ stunts like this, they will generate enough proofs to end up in prison. Let's now forget that even no-signature parcels may get recorded by customs so once someone is investigated it may be a simple process to find out what's going on.

I have actually purchased some stuff for $5 from this guy who scammed me (he is a seller too) just to have a leverage (they pull the gun, so do you) and told him I am just sampling his service since mine is so "shocking". The fraudster promptly upgraded me to tracked service (I think it's 4 GBP extra) and lost money on the sale. I normally do not retaliate on feedback, but this guy does something and I will pull him down real bad - since he is a small seller with 10-20 sales per month.

I usually give my customers a slack, also this guy got undervalued shipping value because in my infinite good-doing I wanted to save him the customs fees(will get back some $25 from the claim). Fortunately there is not many of them, but fraudsters increase my adrenalin level so much that I decided to go after them (police report, etc) and hope more will do the same.

Btw. recped, it's not just to get money back, but usually you spend time with these people. I have 10 emails back and forth with the guy, I kind of wish they just came and said, I am a fraud, refund my money, all communication is waste of time.

[cottonwoodindustries]

Start your claim with Canada Post, and then get on the paypal site and update your information on the claim filed. You can do that everyday, if you want to.

It takes up to 90 days for CP to process your claim, makes sure you include that info when you update your info on both the eBay and Paypal claims.
Good Luck!

I am a little disappointed with some of the attitudes of some of the sellers on this forum. Saying things like... Too bad, tough luck, it's bound to happen, etc. where is the help in that. There is a lot of good info on this site that can help you, good luck.

[boneshakerscards]

Some great ideas and thoughts have been tossed out here, (and some that are not) but nonetheless I thank everyone. I actually have a bit of an update and some more thoughts that I will point out now as I think my bigger point here has been missed.

1) Recped, I do understand that in your opinion I might sell "cheapo" cards, but I would like to point out that I do sell higher end items as well. The problem is for every $40-70 item or more that I sell, I will sell 50 one dollar rookie cards and 20-30 memorabilia cards from $3-6. Needless to say the MAJOR BULK of my business comes from this, so it can't denied or done without.

2) The 'incident' in question should never have happened since I did try and put tracking on it, yet the Postal outlet quoted me a ridiculous high price which I have since found out was false and the item could have been shipped with tracking for what the buyer did pay. I WILL be raising holy hell with them over this when I look to claim the value of the small packet tomorrow.

BUT my major point I'm trying to make is this:

3) To those who say "deal with it" I'm not trying to get around it as much as I'm trying to use the incident in question as a point. The case has already been closed (and yes in the buyers favor) and I knew it was dead fish in the water when I posted this. But down in the States I have since found out that tracking and signature confirmation is quite affordable. ($1 for tracking and $2 for signature required per package I've been told) No wonder PayPal insists on this as it is quite affordable and realistic to do! Unfortunately we do not have the same options here in Canada and that is my point. We should! I mean how hard is it for the Post Office who is completely computerized now to have the clerk check the square on their menu for tracking when they process your shipments, have it print a number on the postage sticker and put it in the system for the extra buck?

Without this option, it is creating an unfair and uneven marketplace with our American counterparts. As my brother-law who is a business lawyer pointed out on the holiday, PayPal is a business service provider along with Ebay. They have the responsibility of making sure all their customers receive the same equal treatment, services, and promised protection for about the same cost. By requiring us to pay much larger fees that our American counterparts and hence higher buyer costs (unless we eat that cost ourselves which is damn near impossible) this will all but diminish our sales and they are not providing that fair and even marketplace within their services. Technically as he put it, it is borderline illegal when it comes to the business laws of our country. It's kinda like charging one person $50 for an item, but someone else $100 because of where he lives, or is from a different culture, dresses differently or maybe even skin colour. You just can't do it. He even reffered me to talk to the BBO or Business and Commerce Ombudsman of Canada and bring this to their attention.

WOW long response. I'll be quiet now, but that was the point I was trying to make when I brought up this incident. We need something much more affordable and much more on an even footing with the States and speaking up and saying this isn't right, this needs to be changed is the only way that it ever will. Not just saying "Too bad, that's the rules deal with it" like some others. You don't like it, try and at least change it for the positive! 🙂

[surplusdealdude]

PayPal is a business service provider along with Ebay. They have the responsibility of making sure all their customers receive the same equal treatment, services, and promised protection for about the same cost.



Technically as he put it, it is borderline illegal when it comes to the business laws of our country.



He even reffered me to talk to the BBO or Business and Commerce Ombudsman of Canada and bring this to their attention





Your brother must not be a very GOOD business lawyer if he doesn't understand the difference a border makes.

The USPS has 10 times the business that Canada Post has and does not have the sparse northern country to deliver to that Canada has. The services are not comparable.

And Paypal has zero control o0ver the relative prices charged by Canada Post and USPS and no responsibility AT ALL to level the field. -------------------------------------------------------------------

If there were in the world today any large number of people who desired their own happiness more than they desired the unhappiness of others, we could have paradise in a few years.
- Bertrand Russell

[sunnyvoip]

Paypal seller protection is totally a joke and never do anything good to me in my experience. I start to cancel order if I find a low feedback buyer who purchased high value item. Or I can simply decline order which worths more than $100 to overseas. Buy/Sell VOIP hardware Overstock
http://www.SunnyVoIP.com

[surplusdealdude]

It's less of a joke as of 3 days ago - now they cover all transactions that say "eligible" on the payment sheet, as long as you follow their rules. -------------------------------------------------------------------

If there were in the world today any large number of people who desired their own happiness more than they desired the unhappiness of others, we could have paradise in a few years.
- Bertrand Russell

[cartoonsinabox]

> It's less of a joke as of 3 days ago - now they cover all transactions that say "eligible" on the payment sheet, as long as you follow their rules.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
It actually doesn't change anything for us canadian sellers or even americans. "eligible" or not you still have to provide a tracking number along with a signature.

Frederic

[surplusdealdude]

Well, of course you need a tracking number. OR a signature, depending on the amount of the sale.

That's just part of the rules. -------------------------------------------------------------------

If there were in the world today any large number of people who desired their own happiness more than they desired the unhappiness of others, we could have paradise in a few years.
- Bertrand Russell

[boneshakerscards]

Agreed with Marsu450 in the fact that it doesn't change much at all for canadian sellers.

And as far as Surplus says "That's just part of the rules" well he's right! But I'm just saying I don't agree with them when it puts us at a disadvantage.

The funny thing is, half the people I've talked to agree with me, and half of them just want to blow it off and say deal with it. BUT those who say deal with it and such are the very same ones on this forum or others that are looking to combine their shipments with other people's, drive them across the border, and then ship them from there or back here from there for the cheaper price of postage and maybe to afford the tracking which is easy to get there. NO OFFENCE to those people, but cheating the mail system or skirting around it absolutely PROVES my point. If it was a level playing field you would have no reason to take those actions and could ship from here with comparable pricing options. End of story....sorry.

[surplusdealdude]

Bud, NOTHING can prove your points.

The mail system is what it is.

If you don't want to choose another mail system, you have to live with the one you have.

Complaining about it gets you absolutely nowhere. -------------------------------------------------------------------

If there were in the world today any large number of people who desired their own happiness more than they desired the unhappiness of others, we could have paradise in a few years.
- Bertrand Russell

[boneshakerscards]

Quote from above "Complaining about it gets you absolutely nowhere"

I get to differ. If you bought let's say a couch from somewhere and it showed with wood rot or maggots in the cushions are you exposed to say "oh well" and turn the other cheek. No, you would complain and get something done about it or the problem fixed. Would you have to hassle with the seller or service provider, yes. Would you have to involve maybe other "groups" who represent consumer issues, maybe. But you would do it and not just say "oh well that's the way it is." Not if they want your business and you want to do business with them.

If something doesn't work for us as Canadian sellers, than yes, complaining, raising a 'stink' and speaking up about it by raising points about the issues at hand ARE the only way to get something done about it and possibly a change for the better in the future for all sellers. If you don't then you are accepting defeat before the battle ever begins....

It may be a losing battle, but I would rather fight then accept surrender.... sorry if we have different ideals...

[surplusdealdude]

Canada Post does not sell couches.

And they couldn't care less what small sellers say - they pay lip service to it, but they aren't going to do anything about it.

And, btw, you aren't complaining to THEM - you're complaining to US. We have ZERO opportunity to change CP's service policies. -------------------------------------------------------------------

If there were in the world today any large number of people who desired their own happiness more than they desired the unhappiness of others, we could have paradise in a few years.
- Bertrand Russell

[jakeeangel]

Boneshaker, pick your battles better. All the Canadian eBay sellers put together are a drop in the bucket to Canada Post's business. We don't have the numbers to get their attention.

I was at a meeting at the eBay offices in Toronto a few years ago with the then head of eBay Canada, Jordan Banks, and one of the senior execs from Canada Post's package division. Everyone that was there signed a confidentiality agreement so I can't discuss specifics but I can tell you that it was an absolute waste of time as far as Canada Post goes and Jordan tried.

They don't care! Several of us in the room said we either directly drive our goods over the border to mail with USPS, sometimes even back into Canada or hire someone to do it and still save money compared to Canada Post. He had nothing to say other than the rates are going to go up & soon that won't be the case. Well, USPS rates did go up, two or three times since then & it's still cheaper than Canada Post.

They don't care. Period. Nothing will be done by them. You have to learn to adapt because they're not going to do bupkiss for any of us.

Allow me to give you an example:

You can be dead right about something but you could still be dead wrong. Which do you want to be?

Picture yourself in the middle of a crosswalk on the green where you have the right of way. You are legally in the right. A big 18 wheeler is coming barrelling at you on the red but you have the right of way. Do you hold your ground because you're right and become pavement juice or do you adapt to the situation and get the heck out of the way?

[surplusdealdude]

That's a very good analogy, jackee. -------------------------------------------------------------------

If there were in the world today any large number of people who desired their own happiness more than they desired the unhappiness of others, we could have paradise in a few years.
- Bertrand Russell