Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

Listening to CNN today, it seems that the fiscal cliff is inevitable.


The Republicans are living up to their promise to work with the President.  Unfortunately, their idea of working with the President seems to be our way or the highway.


They want to have tax increases balanced with strategic spending cuts.  Well, maybe not so much tax increases as a removal or reduction in certain tax deductions.  They want spending cuts.  But, they want to cut medicare and social security.  Those are two of the key platform items that got Romney elected - NOT!


Obama has proposed a plan that gives a balance of tax increases and spending cuts.  Now the Republicans want to see exactly where these increases and cuts will take place - each and every one - before they start talking with the President. 


The Republicans are ignoring the fact that a significant proportion of the people (72%) believe that tax increases are necessary to avoid the fiscal cliff.  They continue to play politics with the future of the U.S. - and the rest of us as well. 


When questioned by CNN anchors, the Republicans refuse to answer any questions.  They just spout the same message over and over. 


Hey guys, you lost.  Get over it and do something right for a change. 

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

"Hey guys, you (Republican) lost."


 


???  


 


Not quite.


 


American voters, in their wisdom, elected a Republican majority in the House of Representatives 234 to 201


 


At the same time, American voters, in their wisdom, re-elected a Democrat to live in the White House.


Obama 50.6% Romney 47.8%


 


At the end of the day, both parties can claim the electorate supported their point of view, their policies.


 


To simplicy things, the President and Democrats want higher taxes and less tax breaks on corporations and high income earners while Republicans want lower government spending while keeping the same low marginal tax rate from the Bush tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.


 


Both are right, of course.


 


Will there be a compromise?  Yes


 


Will the so-called "Fiscal Cliff" be avoided?  Yes. (I am an optimist!)_


 


Will that solve all the problems?  Of course not.  They will keep in fighting for years.

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

For more information on the results on the US November election:


 


http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/2012/results 

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

What would happen if they reduced their spending on the military?


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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable


What would happen if they reduced their spending on the military?


 




Their unemployment rate would go up. 


Good to read you again, Pierre.  It has been a while, and I missed you. 

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

What would happen if they reduced their spending on the military?


 


That’s a catch 22...........


-         A lot of soldiers would go back home but they might be hard pressed to find a job.


-         Businesses supplying the military would cut production and that would put people out of work and they too have to find jobs.


-         People out of work would vote out Obama next election and vote in a Republican with a lot of promises. Then the Republican would get the US into another corporate invented war and things would go back to where they were with the exception of an increase in funeral costs and related items.


 


One has to never forget what Eisenhower said in his farewell speech to the nation….”beware of the military INDUSTRIAL complex”. He knew what was coming because the US drastically changed after WW2.


 


To bring back jobs to the USA they have to in some way get, manipulate or force the US corporate owners to return manufacturing of their products from off shore and Mexico and Central America to the US workers. NAFTA and other agreements were good for big business but not the average person (with the exception of cheap products that don't last long). The USA has to return to being a balance between manufacturing and consuming instead of mainly a country based on consumption.


 


Oh and one final thing…….if the US cut back on military spending and their wars….the world would be a more peaceful place with less people from other countries fleeing those wars.


The could also save a LOT by not supporting Israel with millions upon millions of taxpayers money.





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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

"What would happen if they reduced their spending on the military?"


 


Why limit the question to spending reduction affecting the military? One needs to look at the bigger picture and it is not pretty.


 


The US government currently spends about $3,500,000,000,000 (three and half trillion dollars). It represents  24% of their Gross Domestic Product and that level is well above historic and sustainable trend (20%/21%).


 


Suggested reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget 


 


In the meantime, thanks the the "Bush Tax Cuts" implemented about ten years ago, personal and corporate tax rates have come down and currently represent the lowest rate in modern American history.


 


Suggested reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts


 


So, the problem is simple: tax revenue MUST increase to a more traditional 18% of GDP while expenses MUST decrease to a more traditional 21%.  A 2% to 3% annual growth in the economy will allow the debt to remain more or less constant as a percentage of GDP.


 


Now, reality check (nothing to do with political considerations - just forget the rhetoric offered by both political parties). 


What happens when a government raises taxes and reduce expenses (or at least the rate of growth in expenses)?


 


It hurts.  It hurts everyone.  We experienced a similar problem and solution in Canada nearly twenty years ago when the newly appointed Minister of Finances Paul Martin had to raise taxes, EI contributions, fees, etc... and reduce expenses and provincial transfer payments. Eventually these tough measures resulted in a balance budget, ten years later. 


 


Despite a change of government, that strong fiscal position allowed Canada to survive the 2007-2009 deep recession much better than most developed countries.


 


Americans face difficult choices. There is no easy solution.  Bills have to be paid.  They have lived on borrowed money and borrowed time for too long. The party is over. 😞


 


Suggested reading (Warren Buffett solution to the "Fiscal Cliff"):


http://www.cnbc.com/id/49995975 

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

If everything that does expire at the end of the year. I think it would raise revenue by 600 billion. Thats less than the 2008-9 stimulas. I wonder how much it will really dampen things any more. If that equates to 4000 per household , I wonder how much of a difference it will actually make. Is it a hoax or what? The worst I see is that usa bonds will be rated lower and that could drive up interest rates!  

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

"I wonder how much of a difference it will actually make. Is it a hoax or what?"


 


When it is all said and done, the expectation is that the average American household will be paying $2,000 to $3,000 more in taxes each year—leaving them with $2,000 to $3,000 less to spend in a consumer driven economy.


 


For more information (Forbes) :


http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/11/10/the-fiscal-cliff-explained/

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

valve37
Community Member

Naw, they've always gone to the precipice and then backed off.

"It came to me that every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are."--Unknown
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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

I wonder how much of a difference it will actually make. Is it a hoax or what?



I was thinking the same thing. I have found all the attention to this issue to be eerily scripted and staged. Feels very "wag the dog". Maybe it's just the American way (and Canadian also, of late) of making everything into a media event that gives this impression.



If they take a starting point of ending the Bush tax cuts to the wealthy ~ that will probably improve the economy as much as anything. The rest of it - the Republicans are a bit in a corner on this one. I think their bargaining clout at the present time is very watered down.



Another factor that might come into play is going to be new revenue from fracking oil and gas and less imports from the Middle East.



Nice to see your interesting posts again, Pierre. I was beginning to wonder if you had taken my excellent advice and gone to scout out a nice under-priced villa in the Greek islands...

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable


 


 


When it is all said and done, the expectation is that the average American household will be paying $2,000 to $3,000 more in taxes each year—leaving them with $2,000 to $3,000 less to spend in a consumer driven economy.


 


 




That economy will then take a further beating due to "a diminishing circular flow of income"  The Paradox of Thrift!

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

Didn't succeed :^O





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Message 13 of 45
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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

"That economy will then take a further beating...."


 


Will?


 


No, I do not expect American politicians to be that stupid.  They will reach a last minute face saving compromise and avoid the "fiscal cliff". 


 


However, I suspect much of the solution will be to simply punt the problem (growing national debt) down the road to be dealt with at a future time.

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

Someone ought to sit down and estimate the total amount of gratuitous unneeded advantages that the powers that be in the U.S. have created for themselves. Such things as the carried interest loophole (one of the main reasons why a rich dude like Mitt Romney pays a way lower tax rate than most Americans) and tax breaks for hugely profitable oil companies and other corporations that wind up paying no tax at all.



If someone would actually go through a process of identifying all these schemes that business lobbies have cooked up in Washington over the years, they would probably find an untapped treasure trove that would get them a huge part of the way towards balancing the books.



I don't know if there is an exact parallel in Canada. The same type of thing occurs, no doubt. I believe it is less of a factor in Canada now. But could become much worse.



Canada's problems are very different... you can begin with near-monopolies in virtually every sector (another story for another day...!)

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

"If someone would actually go through a process of identifying all these schemes that business lobbies have cooked up in Washington over the years..."


 


It has been done.  They know exactly to the nearest million how much each tax loophole cost. 


 


Now, tax loopholes are not only used by large corporations, they are also used by small businesses and individuals.  For example, one of the most expensive loopholes in the USA is mortgage interest deduction. It was a great tool decades ago to help Americans buy their homes.  Today, folks are now rethinking it.


 


Another "loophole" is the lower tax rate charged on dividend income (we have a similar program in Canada).  Here the principle beiung the lower tax rate was fairness - minimizing double taxation - since the dividends paid to shareholders comes from the already taxed profits of corporation.  However, in the USA, effective corporate tax rates have gone down over the years without adjustment to the rate charged on the dividends.  Adjustments are obviously now required. Etc... etc...


 


Anyone with a few hours to spare can take a look at


http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Supplemental 


 


 

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

We call it,


New World Order....


Destroy the nations via money..


Create a new World Banking System and all nations must follow...


Provide the humans will bar codes and chips..


control and destroy the masses...


One world..


One Currency...


One leader....


"famous German Statesman"


 


Resistance is futile....7 of 9

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

valve37
Community Member


We call it,


New World Order....


Destroy the nations via money..


Create a new World Banking System and all nations must follow...


Provide the humans will bar codes and chips..


control and destroy the masses...


One world..


One Currency...


One leader....


"famous German Statesman"


 


Resistance is futile....7 of 9




The mark of the beast on everyone's forehead - 666

"It came to me that every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are."--Unknown
Message 18 of 45
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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

Here's someone with more on the idea that this whole "fiscal cliff" is more like a Republican "wag the dog" scenario cooked up to give them leverage vs Obama...



Nobel prize winning economist Paul Krugman said:



It's crazy the way we created this crisis out of thin air



and



told WNYC last week that Obama should go over the fiscal cliff to get a better fiscal cliff deal from Congressional Republicans.



The first I saw on this "fiscal cliff" was Peter Mansbridge interviewing Amanda Lang just before the U.S. election - I thought right away it sounded a little overly processed and manufactured and really had to chuckle to myself as all the pundits lined up to bombard the airwaves with their version of the same memo.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/04/paul-krugman-fiscal-cliff_n_2237405.html?utm_hp_ref=canada-...

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Fiscal Cliff May Be Inevitable

that Obama should go over the fiscal cliff to get a better fiscal cliff deal from Congressional Republicans.



Obama is now threatening to let the U.S. go over the fiscal cliff.  He is counting on the Republicans getting blamed for whatever happens. 


 


John Boehner is acting like he is the President of the U.S.  When Boehner talks, he always refers to everything in the first person.  It is not the House wants this or the House wants that - it is I want this and I want that.  He seems to think that he IS the House.


 


Romney has virtually disappeared from the scene. 

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