eBay

alero0 · ‎03-25-2005

Hi gang,
I'm looking for a bit of advice.
On Feb. 17 I shipped a parcel to Flordia using CP Expedited.
March 2nd I received a notice from paypal that the buyer never received his parcel and was claiming his money back so paypal would freeze those funds until they investigated the matter. I fowarded them the tracking number to prove that the package was shipped.
March 3rd I emailed CP explaining the situation asking them to look into where the package may be.
March 7th CP emailed me saying they were in touch with USPS and they said a delivery notice was left in the recipients PO Box and the package could be picked up at their local post office.
I emailed this info. to the buyer and also called long distance and spoke to the buyer's wife explaining what happened. She claimed they never got the notice but will check with the post office.
March 8th I received notification that the package was successfully delivered.
That night I emailed the buyer to get in touch with Paypal to advise them that they got their package.
Long story short, I never heard a word from the buyer and today I received notification from paypal that the buyer was rewarded his money and I had to pay an additional $10.00 service charge.
Throughout all this time I've been fowarding all the CP corespondences and tracking info. to Paypal but never got a reply from them.
Today I emailed the buyer saying:

Brandon,

I have just received notice that paypal refunded your money and charged me for it. It is my belief that you have received your covers and made a false claim. In doing so I will proceed in making a report to Canada Post and USPS reporting your actions. You should be warned that it is a Federal offence in the US for mail fraud. Should you have in fact picked up your covers at your post office there will be records of it and you may in fact be prosecuted. The total costs to me by your actions are $62.00 for the speaker covers + S+H and an additional service charged which I had to pay of $10.00. Should you wish to settle this matter please contact me.

Harvey

Is there anything else that I can do or am I just fighting a losing battle? I do plan on contacting CP about this to see what they can do.
Any suggestions?

Harvey

multidistributor · ‎03-25-2005

Same here, customer picked up the package in Manitoba, signed and picture id at the post office still lost the case. PayPal said take him to court, CP said they can't do anything he signed and pictured ID. To make a long story short, as of today i will not be accepting PayPal and loose anymore money. There is no seller protection what so ever just buyer protection. Maybe they should start charging the buyers to pay for the inserts and our ads since there so protective, of course this is my opinion.

llee2 · ‎03-27-2005

Harvey,

How is it that Paypal ruled against you? My understanding is that if you provide the tracking number for Expedited and it shows the parcel being delivered to the confirmed address, that should cover your behind.

What was the reasoning that Paypal gave for ruling against you if this was provided?

Lincoln

zarzuella · ‎03-27-2005

Was it a confirmed address?

alero0 · ‎03-27-2005

Lincoln,
You would think it would work like that. I'll post Paypal's ruling which by the way I did appeal. (For whatever good that will do) I will delete family names and transaction numbers.

Note the transaction date. This is the Paypal transaction of when the buyer paid me. One of the reasons I lost my case is because Paypal said I didn't ship within 7 days...I shipped on Feb 17th, They have the waybill tracking info. at their fingertips.
Dear Harvey,

We recently notified you of a chargeback stating that merchandise that was
ordered was not received. After careful consideration of the information
provided by you and the buyer regarding the transaction detailed below, we
are informing you that we are unable to successfully dispute this
chargeback with the buyer's credit card issuer.

Since the credit card issuer granted the chargeback to the buyer, we have
debited $62.00 USD from your PayPal account in order to reimburse the
buyer.

Also, PayPal was charged a settlement fee. As a result we debited your
PayPal account to pay for this fee. This action was taken in accordance
with the terms of the PayPal User Agreement.

Please review the transaction information below and other details about
this case.

-------------------------------
Details of Disputed Transaction
-------------------------------
Buyer's Name: brandon
Buyer's Email:
Transaction Date: Feb 15, 2005
Transaction ID:

Transaction Amount: $62.00 USD
Case #: PP-

---------------
What to Do Next
---------------
This case is now closed. No additional steps are required by you.

-------------------------
Other Details
-------------------------
This transaction was reversed for the following reasons(s):

- The merchandise was shipped to an unconfirmed address.
- The merchandise was not shipped within 7 days of payment.
- The transaction was not marked as "SPP Eligible".

llee2 · ‎03-28-2005

Harvey,

The only thing I see you got burned on was shipping to an unconfirmed address. Unfortunately, despite everything else proving you shipped and the buyer received, Paypal will still do the chargeback because of this.

You may want to contact USPS and this buyer's local authorities. Mail fraud is taken a fair bit more seriously State-side than it is here. If your Paypal appeal falls through, try calling the Paypal customer service line. Occassionally, they will reverse the $10 chargeback fee as a courtesy gesture.

Lincoln

zarzuella · ‎03-28-2005

Harvey,

Have you had any response to your 'mail fraud' email to the scammer?

alero0 · ‎03-28-2005

zarzuella,
I haven't heard a word from that SOB since the begining ofthis whole ordeal. I don't expect to hear anything from this guy.

Harvey

coastwindchimes · ‎03-29-2005

Hi Harvey,
Lincoln is right, the U.S. is set up much better than Canada for handling mail fraud, and they take it very seriously. Even for a small amount, they go to a fair amount of trouble to annoy the person. I have had to file twice with the USPS, and they send copies of all the documents they send to the rip-off artist-- they are quite scary, and both times the buyer has paid me. Here are a couple of addresses, and I recommend the USPS one. I would also email the buyer that you plan to take this step in three days, to give them a chance to pay first. I've done that, and had payment come through light-fast. Good luck. Tim.

File Mail Fraud Complaint w/ US Postal Service (USPS) after 30 days and up to apx 1 year.

http://www.framed.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/MailFraudComplaint.htm

Or download the PDF file, PS Form 8165 .

Also file the Complaints with the following resources.
National Fraud Information Center (NFIC)
http://63.222.159.194/repoform.htm

FBI's Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFCC)
http://www.ifccfbi.gov/

alero0 · ‎03-29-2005

Tim, Thanks for the links. I'm going to report this guy. I've already warned him a few times that I was going to report him but he still hasen't responded. I guess he thought I was bluffing. Well maybe I won't get any $$ out of this but hopfully USPS can rattle his cage a bit.

Harvey

alero0 · ‎03-29-2005

I just reported the guy to USPS
I'll let you know what happens

Harvey

coastwindchimes · ‎03-30-2005

Harvey,
It takes them a while, and you probably will not get an email, but you should get a copy of the rather nasty letter they will send to this character. Worked twice for me, and I think when you see the letter, you will understand why: it's fairly tough! I'd go ahead with the FBI, to, and send the guy an email with the links, telling him you have reported him. That should start giving him a little stomach trouble, and then the big headache will come for him when he gets the USPS letter. Good luck! Tim.

discountlabelsupplies · ‎03-30-2005

This is TOTAL KAKA. This happened to me as well once. Delivery confirmation available to view online and Paypal emailed this info. Exactly like in your case, a few days go by and I receive the same letter as you.

What ticks me off is that in my regular business (Brick n' Morter) when there is a chargeback (have had about 2 in 27 years) Visa/MC calls you and discusses the case. On Ebay, Paypal simply hands over OUR money without any recourse. Case closed.

The moral of the story is that Paypal protection is just advertising. Hype, promotion, and yes... pretty much a lie.

Having said that, I will still continue to accept Paypal as most Ebay buyers want to pay by paypal. I can guarantee you though that as soon as a Major Banking institution or Visa itself emulates what Paypal is doing but with more seller protection, Paypal will go the way of billpoint.

wrightcomputes · ‎03-31-2005

USPS inspectors do take action, Try to speak with someone over the phone. 1-800-ASK-USPS is a good start. unlike Canada, mail fraud is a very serious offense in the USA. I had a case where a package misteriously showed up after they got a call from a postal inspector.

alero0 · ‎04-02-2005

Just an update to what's happening; I just received notice from paypal that they will dispute the the chargeback with the buyer's credit card company on "my behalf". I like their wording my behalf, like they're doing me a big favor....they're just doing what was suppose to have been done in the first place. They told me the credit card company has 75 days to make a decission. That's strange, I only had 72 HOURS to respond to the original dispute when it was filed against me. (That sounds fair $*#!!)

I, on the other hand have taken action against the buyer. I've filed a mail fraud complaint with USPS, and an internet fraud complaint with the FBI's Internet Fraud Dept.

At this point it's not the money. A wise old man once told me...Don't get mad...Get EVEN.

I'll keep you posted if something happens.

Harvey

multidistributor · ‎04-03-2005

Prepare to give PayPal $10.00 for them to dispute the credit card chargeback on your behalf.

shooger · ‎04-05-2005

No, PayPal won't charge you another $10, that's incorrect. And since it has gone to this second step, I believe you'll get your money back.

Also, continue with the fraud charge with USPS.

Then leave negative feedback.
Then file for your fees back and get the buyer NARUd.

multidistributor · ‎04-06-2005

shooger he had to pay the $10.00 he has no choice.

itrecovery · ‎04-07-2005

I was charged $10 on chargebacks. Paypal explanation that it was a processing fee from CC company, which they just pass on me.

paypal useless anyway. My advice to move on or report to local police, as shipping address is known. You will surprized how police WORKS in small cities. If fraud from places like TO or NY just forget it.

cambam0 · ‎04-12-2005

I also have a similar situation here. I have a buyer from France who asked before he bid what the shipping would be, I gave him the choice between Airmail (5-7 days) or Surface mail (4-8 weeks). He bought and paid for surface mail. Remember surface mail goes by boat. I shipped less than 24 hours following his payment and 3 weeks later he does a charge back. Of course it isn't going to be in France yet. I use EST and sent a fax of the manifest to paypal as proof of shipment. This manifest is signed and dated by the postmaster. Of course Canada does not have tracking for small packets, so I am SOL. I also forwarded all emails to paypal with regards to the delivery time for surface mail to France and that the buyer was aware of this prior to buying. To bad, so sad. This is part of my response I got from paypal today.
"We apologize for any inconvenience. However, the ability to provide
proof-of-delivery which can be tracked online is an express condition of
the Seller Protection Policy.

We can only suggest that you review the delivery confirmation products
available to you from UPS, FedEx, the United States Postal service and
other shipping service providers. You may wish to consider making the cost
of online shipment tracking mandatory for your customers for your
protection in cases such as this."

Excuse me, but with all my info. and emails and fax I sent they still missed that I am in Canada. If USPS was an option here in Canada of course I would be using it. Dah. The closest UPS is also over 50 km away. Ya, like I am going to do that trip every day and pay double for shipping and carry that extra shipping on over to my customers. Ya, right.
If anyone knows how to get tracking on parcels smaller than 1kg please let me know. Yes there is Registered but what customer is going to pay $11.00 extra for that.
Totally frustrated here.