eBay

breda_decorative_arts · ‎06-08-2013

We have just been the victim of a new scam - I say new scam, because I thought we'd been scamed every possible way by crooked buyers on ebay.

This scam involves an oversea's buyer who wins an auction. Pays quickly via Paypal. We ship pursuant to Paypal's rules within 24 hours - ie ship by online tracked method, with a signature on receipt. We ship to the buyer protection address provided by Paypal. The buyer pays for surface mail (which has a Canada Post guide delivery time of 6-12 weeks). Due to the value of the item, we decide to pay an additional $2300 ish dollars out of our own pocket, to ship by xpresspost (which has a 7 day guide delivery time). The buyer has 100% positive feedback (of course) Everything looks normal.

Our auctions clearly state that buyers are responsible for any customs duty or import tax their Country may collect on delivery. The Paypal user agreement also clearly states that neither Paypal, nor the seller are responsible for customs duty.

The item we sold was number 271203295523 (a chinese porcelain vase). This was an unreserved auction The starting price was $9.99 and the winning final bid was $5,988.00

The tracking number shows the item was mailed on May 23, and on May 29 it was sitting in customs at the buyer's end, waiting for the buyer to pay the customs duty.

So here is the scam. It turns out, the buyer, bought 4 items from different people. He waited for those items to get to him, to see what value the seller had used to declare each item. The buyer then chose to clear customs on two of the 4 items, and he refused to pay the customs duty on the other two, and thereby refused delivery on those two.

One of the two he refused to clear through customs and accept, was our item.

He then filed an item not received complaint with Paypal.

The item not received complaint is for items which "disappear" during shipping. In those instances, Paypal rightly refunds the buyer. Its a scam, for a buyer to refuse to accept the item, and thereby obstruct delivery themself, and then file an item not received complaint. That would be a fraudulent Paypal complaint.

Our return policy on Ebay is very clear. If the item has not been misrepresented, and it is returned, then there is a 15% restocking fee. (we adopted that policy on advise of Ebay, after being victimized by a prior scam)

We responded by telephoning Paypal, and asking for an explanation. The paypal representative told us to escalate the claim, because there was nothing we as the seller could do, and it was up to the buyer to work with his customs department, to pay the customs duty and accept delivery.

We followed the Paypal advice and escalated the claim. Instead of going to someone to review the details, the escalation resulted in Paypal sending the tracking number to the buyer, and asking him if he wanted to continue with his complaint. As this was not a lost item, and the buyer had himself refused delivery, naturally the buyer responded by saying he wished to continue his claim.

We telephoned Paypal again. This time we were told that the item would come back to us, and the buyer would get his payment back. I pointed out that if it did get back to us, we would have to pay the return shipping, (about $370, and we would be out as well, the $370 ish it cost to ship it out in the first place). I also pointed out that if this buyer was returning this item and and it was correctly described, then he is contractually obligated to pay the restocking fee. The paypal rep said we should notify Paypal escalations in writing, which we did.

At that time, we thought that if the item comes back to us, Paypal would refund the buyer. At least we would have our item back. We knew we would be out $740 ish in shipping (we will have to pay return shipping if it comes back), and we knew that if we relisted the item, the final selling price would be much less, because anytime an item is reauctioned, buyers assume there is something wrong with it, so the second time around the auction value is far less. We had been led to believe that Paypal may take that into consideration, and reduce the refund to the buyer accordingly - but nothing would occur until the item was returned to us in its original condition.

So today, paypal closed the Item not received complaint in favour of the buyer - stating that the buyer had been refunded his entire purchase price. Nothing has been returned to us. All we have is a $6000 ish deficit in our Paypal account (ps this is why you should never use Paypal shipping - because in such cases you are blocked from shipping anything until the paypal deficit has been paid in full).

I also note that Paypal kept its $178.22 fee. You would think at the very least, Paypal would refund the fees they charged us!

Who knows what we will get back, if anything. We might get an empty box. We might not get anything. Paypal didn't wait to find out.

So the moral of this story is Paypal processes fraudulent item not received complaints, just like honest ones, and Paypal will keep the fees they charge you.

We used Paypal in good faith. We shipping to the name, and address Paypal vetted. We paid $200 plus extra to ship pursuant to Paypal's rules, with online tracking and signature. We did everything required of us. And when we discovered that Paypal was working with a crooked buyer, we notified paypal, and instructed them to read all the Ebay messages so they could clearly see that the buyer admitted not paying customs and refusing delivery.

Paypal didn't even wait to see what, if anything was returned to us.

Despite a clearly fraudulent Paypal complaint, Paypal found infavor of the buyer, refunded his entire payment before anything was returned to us, and Paypal kept their fee.

Paypal claims it is the safest way to accept payments. Well I can tell you that if we had accepted payment by credit card directly, we would have a completed contract with the buyer - Offer, Acceptance and Consideration. And since the buyer did not claim misrepresentation of any kind, and the buyer himself refused delivery because he chose not to pay Customs duty, we would be within our rights to refuse the item if it is returned to us. A credit card company would not find in favor of the buyer in such a case.

So how do your protect yourself from scamers who buy your items with the intention of refusing delivery. I don`t know. I do know if you use paypal, you will find yourself with out the money and without the item.

ps. Paypal has an appeal process. So we pressed the appeal button. We were prompted to choose one of two options - either that the buyer has been previously refunded, or to enter a tracking number.

We selected `enter tracking number`` which is already loaded and appears on the Paypal Page. When you press the Submit tracking number button, all you get is a message saying ``You did not enter a tracking number, please enter a tracking number and press save`` Every time we enter the tracking info, we get the same message - ie Paypal refuses to accept an appeal.

rose-dee · ‎06-08-2013

I can certainly sympathize with your plight. I thought I had one of these issues a few weeks ago. Although thankfully not a ca. $6,000 item, it was worth about $350, buyer got it for $180, paid for it promptly via Paypal, then messaged me (cleverly not through eBay where it could be recorded) asking if I could state the value as $20.00 for customs purposes. I politely refused. I saw this buyer had been buying up a number of similar items in the same week, so being concerned about a similar scenario to yours, I paid for Xpresspost delivery with signature confirmation.

Well, the item got to the U.K. and through customs in less than 5 days, and I could see from the tracking it was sitting in the local post office awaiting pick-up for over a week after that point. I thought I'd end up with the same sort of INR case/scam from this buyer as you've experienced. I finally emailed the buyer that the parcel was being held for pick up at his local post office. After nearly 10 days it was finally, thankfully claimed.

I think this is an area of policy Paypal needs to "clean up". As shipping to Europe becomes more expensive, and sellers learn they can file an INR claim while actually refusing a confirmed delivery, this is going to become a much bigger problem.

In my view, if a seller can confirm the item reached the buyer's local post office and the buyer refuses it for whatever reason, Paypal should make the buyer responsible for return shipping (for example, by reducing his refund by the equivalent shipping cost paid by the seller, plus any restocking fee), no ifs, ands or buts. This only seems fair. Shame on Paypal.

A new scam every week it seems...:-(

pjcdn2005 · ‎06-08-2013

I've heard of similar situations for a long time so I wouldn't say that this is something 'new'.

But one thing that I find odd...I have read about situations like this on the U.S. Powersellers board and the poster is usually advised by other sellers that the buyer loses their buyer protection if the package is 'refused' But that is the total opposite of what I have heard happening to sellers on this board.

Actually neither solution seems right I think that it should work something like this....

If it is obvious that the buyer did not want the package due to the cost at customs, they would not get refunded until the seller received the item back. Their refund would be for the item only.....originally shipping costs would not be refunded.

breda_decorative_arts · ‎06-10-2013

Update.

I phoned Paypal on Jun 8, 2013 asking to appeal their decision. The Paypal rep told me I could not appeal this decision! Thats right - there is an appeal process, but Paypal will not allow me to use itt. No reason given - my request to appeal was made within 24 hours of Paypal's decision in favor of the buyers item not received complaint.

You send an item pursuant to Paypal's rules, then a few days later, they take the money back from you. They keep $178 in Paypal fees, and refuse to allow you to appeal their decision.

As you may or may not be aware, Paypal is unregulated in Canada. Most of the financial sector in Canada - ie banks, credit cards etc are regulated in Canada - meaning if they steal from you, you can file a complaint with the Regulator. In Canada, paypal is unregulated.

If US buyers loose their buyer protection if the buyer refuses delivery, it may mean that Paypal is regulated in the US.

The only possible regulation is theft over $5000, is grand theft in Canada. And Paypal is the entity that took the $6100+ from me.

I filed a complaint against Paypal with the Better Business Bureau.

pjcdn2005 · ‎06-10-2013

If US buyers loose their buyer protection if the buyer refuses delivery, it may mean that Paypal is regulated in the US.

Or it could mean that an exception had been made in one or two cases and those are the ones that I read about. Or perhaps it was an ebay buyer protection case that was opened and that was how ebay ruled at the time?? We will probably never know for sure.

A few years ago, I did ask Paypal about situations like that and got the answer that each situation is different and that the decision would be based on a case by case basis.....which really wasn't an answer.

Hopefully you will get your item back quickly and that you won't have to pay for the return shipping.

jt-libra · ‎06-10-2013

That's heartbreaking. I feel so bad for you.

I've had a couple of claims from clearly fraudulent buyers which were settled in their favour but nowhere near that amount of money.

Hopefully the parcel wasn't opened, but simply refused by the eBayer or, if it was opened, not disturbed too much by the customs officer. That way at least, it may be intact when you get it back, which hopefully you will. You may be out the shipping, but at least you'll have your $6000 vase back.

When I've re-listed a one of a kind item, or a unique item (again, only a fraction of that value), I've put a note in the description, e.g. "This item was previously offered at auction but the transaction was not completed. The cancellation did not relate to the condition of the item." You may be able to use better wording. I don't think an astute buyer would automatically assume that there was something wrong with it.

Good luck to you. Let us know if you get this back.

citrus13 · ‎06-23-2013

I'm reading this in awe.... I don't understand.. we have had situations where, when a buyer received something and didn't like the item, he wanted to return it, the buyer didn't receive the refund until we received the item back...

how on Earth did Paypal explain to you that the refund will go back to the buyer prior to you receiving your item back... i don't understand this.......

breda_decorative_arts · ‎06-25-2013

Follow up.

So here is how this story ended.

The package was returned to my post office. The same postal office manager who sent it, was there when I collected it. The first thing she said to me was "it didnt' go out like that". (meaning the box was visually different).

They buyer (not customs), had opened the package, and played with the contents.

The item had been very poorly repacked.

Thank goodness it was not damaged in the return trip.

I had to pay about $360 to get it back from the post office (return shipping). So in total, I'd paid twice that in shipping.

Apparently Buyers in China are able to open their mail, and play with the contents, and then decide if they want to keep them or return them. This is a huge problem for me, as Chinese will buy antiques just to photograph, weigh and measure them, so they can make copies. Once they have the data they require, then no longer need the original.

Worse yet, the buyer can apparently do all of this without taking delivery. This allows the buyer to then file a fraudulant item not received complaint with Paypal.

Paypal initially was not helpful - I called them several times.

One paypal rep claimed I was not allowed to appeal Paypal's decision to refund the buyer in full (this was before the item was returned to me).

I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

When the item was returned I phoned papal again. This Paypal rep agreed to pay me the return shipping cost, and half of the original shipping cost. Ultimately she agreed to refund all the shipping cost. I figured that was better than nothing, and considered myself lucky.

We have a restocking fee of 15% to help offset the loss assocated with relisting an antique item (because they never sell for the same amount the second time) In this case, the vase that sold for $6000 the first time, will likely sell for $3000 the second time.

The paypal rep would not do anything about compensating me for the buyer's use of a fraudulant item not received paypal case to evade the restocking fee.

A day or two later, something very interesting happenned. A Paypal rep called me to respond to the Better Business Bureau complaint. This Paypal representative was completely different. He had already familiarized himself with the case, and although I told him I had agreed with a prior representative to drop my claim in exchange for a refund of the shipping cost, he told me that he would also refund me the restocking fee. This was above and beyond my expectations.

The Moral of this story is that Paypal is getting better. There are people working for paypal who will actively help you solve problems caused by their policies. To get access to these people, you need to go to the Better Business Bureau.

I was not made whole, but Paypal went a long way to help offset some of the ultimate cost.

I've been using Paypal for years (because we are effectively forced to so do by Ebay), and this is the first time I have ever had a positive expereince.

I'm quick to point out the negatives, but just as fast to point out the positives, and in this case, Paypal impressed me.

There is more, the ebay selling fees for this item were C$253.94. I asked ebay to refund me on June 8, 2013. They said they would do so, but it would take 48 hours. Well after a couple of weeks I checked, and no refund. I then phoned back again, this time talking to a supervisor who said it would be done that day, well its now June 25th, and still nothing.

The problem is ebay is now using an Asian call center, and their employees are powerless which makes them useless. One of these Asians even told me all they can do is send a request (presumably to North America). If the request is not sent properly, then nothing happens. The Ebay Asians are great at telling you everything will be fine, and letting you think your problem will be fixed, but nothing happens. They promise you'll get a follow up email in a couple of days etc, but you never get any follow up. They are apparently just there to claim you down, and make you think the problem has been solved.

Elsewhere I've written on this board asking if there is any way to contact ebay North America - because if you get the Asian call cneter, you may as will just hang up, becuase you are waisting your time.

Sincerely,

Nicholas James BSc MBA

rehautala · ‎09-19-2013

I read through this entire scenario, and all I can say is "wow".

It's nice to see that Paypal came through in the end, but you should never have had to jump through so many hoops. Most people would give up if it were anything less expensive - so much time involved.

My questions are:

Did they ever explain why they refunded before you received your item back? It would be good to know.

Did they admit to any wrong-doing at all (or mistakes on their part)?

Did they apologize and/or make any commitment that they will try to ensure it does not happen again?

Is this a case of the "squeeky wheel gets the grease" and you put them under enough pressure than someone with actual decision making power did the right thing?

Any discussion on what happens when a buyer deliberately refuses to receive an item?

Will others that get scammed this way be able to claim back all their shipping charges (even if it was a much less expensive item).?

The result was certainly much better than it could have been, but I have all these questions as a result.

puckstopshere · ‎10-06-2013

I can't understand why PayPal is so quick in opening a claim from a buyer.

I shipped a large quantity of cards to a former Soviet bloc country (my first mistake).

I mailed it on Sept. 30, but first mail pick up would be on Oct. 1.

Customer filed a claim on October 4 and PayPal placed the funds on hold.

I did not use Xpress Post as the value was not high enough to deem it necessary.

Is it reasonable for PayPal to assume that a large envelope sent airmail is going to

be delivered that quickly? Why do they open a dispute placed by a buyer that quickly?

anguscoinshop · ‎11-27-2013

this is the way i eliminated 99% of all my challenges, i ship only to counties that have the most reliable postal system and good+ economies; us, uk, germany, au, nz and japan

yep, that's a very short list

also, i haven't used that paypal shipping in well over 2 years

ultimately the best way would be to use our own banking system for maximum protection, paypal is simply to dangerous.

avionsunantiques · ‎12-20-2013

Sorry for the delay in my reply. I'm responding from my Avionsunantiques account, as I've stopped using the breda site after being attacked with damaging negative feedback by a crooked Asian dealer who wanted to return his purchase (won at auction) because he wouldn't make as much profit on it as he would like!

Lets see if I can answer your questions.

Paypal never explained why the buyer was refunded before the item was returned.

Paypal never admitted to any wrong doing on their part. Paypal said that we were both victims, and Paypal was willing to cover part of my costs as a one time thing, because of the large amount of money Paypal gets from me every year (I don't know how many thousand it is, but its up there in the thousands).

No Paypal didn't apologize or say anything to suggest they would not let this happen again.

Yes, in my view, this is a case of not taking no for an answer from Paypal. A few years ago, I had a similar problem, and Paypal only did the right thing after I contacted the Canadian Minister of Finance and asked that Paypal be regulated within Canada (at that time Paypal was one of the only financial operations in Canada that was not regulated - as far as I know, that may or may not still be the case). I didn't have to go that far this time around.

There was no discussion I can recall on what happens when a buyer refuses delivery. Ultimately if the item is returned to you, the buyer should get his payment back, less all the shipping costs etc that the seller has paid on behalf of the buyer.

I've no idea what others will experience - thats pure speculation.

The bottom line is there are problems with Paypal's policy. The problem I'm currently dealing with is sending an item by tracked surface mail internationally (which has a 6-12 week delivery guide from Canadapost). The buyer is made fully aware of the delivery period. Nevertheless, about 3 weeks after shipment, the buyer files a fraudulent item not received complaint with Paypal or Ebay. I've had it happen in both cases.

The tracking info ultimately shows the item is delivered, but in the interm, the buyer is refunded by Ebay or Paypal. Paypal has admitted to me this is a problem. Paypal has a 45 day complaint window, so buyers are encouraged to file complaints before 45 days, and well before the delivery date. The honest ones close the case after delivery. The dishonest ones gloat to you about receiving the item, and having Ebay or Paypal refund their payment.

I'm presently dealing with one of these. It is item number 380696528059 Sent by Canadapost. Tracking number CC187937691CA

Ebay refunded this scam artist on Nov 3/13. On Nov 20/13 it was delivered, and the scam artist even sent me a gloating email via ebay confirming receipt! He then tried to scam another $45 out of me by saying he would return it to me if I sent him $45 (which I didn't as he clearly has no intention of returning the item, otherwise he would not have paid the customs duty on delivery, and he would of just refused delivery).

On Nov 20/13 Ebay refused to return the payment to me, even though there is do doubt this item was delivered within the delivery window.

I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau on Nov 21/13. Interesting, Ebay has refused to respond. The BBB has now asked Ebay to respond for the second time, and I am waiting to see what happens. However it seems pretty clear that Ebay has not replied to my complaint in a month, so its unlikely they will reply at all.

Interestingly, Ebay is now much worse than Paypal when it comes to stealing from you. Paypal seems to be working hard to make themselves better, while Ebay is doing the oppostie.

ps, please see my other post today, about Ebay apparently over charging for their Seller Value fee on shipping on some items. Its dangerous when companies apparently overcharge their customers.

reallynicestamps · ‎12-21-2013

I filed a complaint against Paypal with the Better Business Bureau.

Well, it was nice that PP paid attention when you did so, but you should know that BBB is a not-for-profit franchised organization of local merchants who try to mediate problems between buyers and sellers.

They are not a government organization.

They are a local commercial organization for the benefit of local merchants.

They cannot force anyone to come to the table for mediation.

For the record, our family business is a member of the Ottawa BBB. It's good advertising.

If you have a problem with an out of town merchant you are better to file a claim with Small Claims Court, which actually has authority in your province.

I'm certainly not legally trained in any way, and I am not sure that a Small Claims Court finding can be useful anywhere outside the Court's province.

Fraud over $5000, again not a lawyer, but that becomes a criminal matter, I think.

But the BBB may be able to help with the overcharge your plumber is claiming, but they have no jurisdiction ... pretty well anywhere. It's all handshake stuff.