WHAT IS THE POINT TO HAVE RULES WHEN THEY ARE NOT ENFORCED? I MEAN REALLY??

[*stealthtech*]

I can't even start to imagine the thought process of underpaid and uneducated staff that work at eBay Trust and Safety.

I had a buyer win a listing, item number is 260115936205 and the user is decalman705. I had some major issues with him which resulted me in sending his threats and harassing emails to eBay (total waste of time, nothing was followed up upon) and to Kawartha Lakes Police (who had to issue a police caution for harassment).

He left me a neutral comment and I left a negative for the email threats and unprofesianalism that he showed towards me.

Then I have someone buy item number 260121704895 user name is robkane69. This account was created 28-May-07 in Canada.

NOW... things get interesting... when I see the email of the first user ***@XXXXXX.com when I go to www.XXXXXX.com (sorry cant publish personal infor or I get in trouble) it is the address of robkane69. Coincidental? perhaps, but eBay says NO!

I can link the two account together from that information, however the reply from eBay:

Hello,

Thank you for writing to eBay. I appreciate the chance to assist you with your report.

We're always concerned about possible policy violations on eBay sites and appreciate your report regarding robkane69. We thoroughly investigated your report, but at this time there isn't enough evidence to show that a violation has taken place. We can reopen the investigation if we receive additional information.

Out of concern for our members privacy, we can't discuss our investigation with other members. I hope that this assures you that your account history will likewise remain private.

If you'd like to contact us again with additional information or to report other violations, I recommend that you review the information on the Web address below. To learn more about reporting inappropriate trading behavior, go to:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/programs-investigations.html

This page contains links that will help you get an answer to your question or concern as quickly as possible.

Again, thank you for your email and please don't hesitate to let us know if you have any further questions or concerns.

Best wishes,

Andrea L.
PowerSeller Team----------------------------------------------

So, now what.... a few days go by, I get more frustrated as clearly I can see that the user created a second account to only leave me with a negative comment, a clear violation of eBay policy at http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/feedback-abuse-withdrawal.html

I emailed the guy and said nice try on the second account and that he cant leave feedback being new, the reply back:

Response from robkane69
robkane69( 0)
Positive feedback: 0%
Member since: 28-May-07
Location: NWT, Canada
Registered on: www.ebay.ca


Item: PEPPER SPRAY DOG REPELLENT PERSONAL PROTECTION 40g HOT
(260121704895)
This message was sent while the listing was active.
robkane69 is a bidder.



yeah kinda a bad try there. Don't worry you will get a negative sooner or later, just need a better account
----------------------------------------------------

I check my feedback on eBay and I have this posted by the guys second account:

Refused to sell item after buy it now and paypal payment. Did refund money Buyer: robkane69 ( 0 ) 02-Jun-07 15:32

I email eBay I once again email eBay Trust and Safety, and sent and reported that email only to get this reply:

Hello,

Thank you fo writing back, Sean.

Yes, this is the type of proof that we require. However we do require the full header along with the email content below the header.

I appreciate your patience and understanding regarding this matter and look forward to your response so that we can resolve this matter as soon as possible for you.

Best wishes,

Andrea L.
PowerSeller Team
----------------------------------------------------

So, I send the header along with the message... and at the same time I leave a comment on the second account that stated:

Reply by sell-ur-stuff (02-Jun-07 16:10):
Your the same guy as decalman705 -STOP HARASSING ME- This is Feedback Extortion!

What does eBay do??? NOTHING... naturally.... TAKE OFF THE BLINDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then the guys leaves a follow up comment that reads:

Reply by robkane69 (03-Jun-07 13:43):
decalman705 is my brother. Paid for product you wouldn't sell simple as that

----------------------------------------------

So I again, email eBay this:

OK... I am trying to get more proof as clearly I am seeing something that you are not..... NOW... It is again just coincidental that the buyer admits that this second account that I am complaining about is his brothers????

This is the feedback located at http://feedback.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=robkane69&ftab=AllFeedback



-----------------------------------------------------------

Ratings mutually withdrawn: 0
1 Feedback received Page 1 of 1

Feedback / Item From / Price Date/Time Your the same guy as decalman705 -STOP HARASSING ME- This is Feedback Extortion! Seller:
sell-ur-stuff ( 580) 02-Jun-07 16:10
Reply by robkane69 (03-Jun-07 13:43):
decalman705 is my brother. Paid for product you wouldn't sell simple as that

PEPPER SPRAY DOG REPELLENT PERSONAL PROTECTION 40g HOT (#260121704895)
-- View Item


-----------------------------------------------------------

Do you really think that they just both happen to have issues with me?

Why would the brother make a new account days after his brother leaving me a bad feedback? Come on.. Clearly you can see that this is feedback abuse????

There is a clear violation of eBay policy at http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/feedback-abuse-withdrawal.html

I trust that this is enough evidence... now... DO THE RIGHT THING and NARU his account and remove this comment!
-------------------------------------------------------

What do I get back:

Hello Sean,

Thank you for taking the time to write back to eBay Customer Support regarding your concerns with this member. I hope that I am able to assist you further with resolving this transaction.

I have reviewed your case with my supervisor, and as a courtesy to you, we have reviewed your case again. Based on this review, we have concluded that unfortunately, there is not enough evidence to show that these two members are related.

We will review any future emails from you, however, unless they contain new additional information pertaining to this case, we will not respond.

I appreciate your patience and understanding in this matter.

Best wishes,

Andrea L.
PowerSeller Team-----------------------------------------------

OK.. now WTF?!?!?! I'm sorry, but these PowerSeller Team should really be on that show.. what is it called??? oh.. are you smarter then a fifth grader???

I finally go and email everyone at ebay to whom I have a email address for and naturally no replies... so I email the guy who is doing all this to me and stated to him that now we both have negative comments and I suggested that we mutually withdrawal them all and I will refund this $8.00 for the cell phone....

well... he agrees.... SO WTF DOES EBAY STAFF DO ALL DAY????

Basically, what I have learned here is this:

If I buy something from someone.... Left them a neutral comment, they leave me a negative comment..... Then I can go make a second account, and leave them another negative comment!

As clearly eBay has shown that there is NO VIOLATION! I can sit here till I am blue in the face and make account after account to leave people negative comments!

I cant believe the way eBay closed this and left the comments there in the feedback, even where the guy states its his brothers?

Did eBay even look at the whole picture here? Where to they hire these people?

Thank god I will be at eBay Live as this issue is not over, it is unacceptable for eBay to be this stupid!

So what was the final verdict that eBay made:

Hello Sean,
Thank you for taking the time to write back to eBay Customer Support regarding your concerns with item #260121704895. I hope that I am able to assist you further with resolving this transaction.

eBay is concerned about violations on the site and I have thoroughly investigated your report and I appreciate you submitting all of this information to us. Please be assured that I have taken appropriate action in accordance with our site policies. These actions may include issuing a warning, temporary suspension, indefinite suspension or terminating the membership.

Because privacy concerns are important to everyone I am not at liberty to discuss the details of another member's account. I hope that you understand my position in this situation. I also hope that it assures you that your personal account history will always remain private.

Again, thank you for your email and please don't hesitate to let us know if you have any further questions or concerns.

Regards,

Andrea L.

eBay Customer Support
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



WHAT??? further questions or concerns??????????????? YOU HAVE NOT ADDRESSED ANY OF THEM... WHAT MORE CAN I POSSIBILY EMAIL TO YOU?????????????

Here are the comments on the feedback:

http://feedback.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=robkane69&ftab=AllFeedback

and mine:

http://feedback.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=sell-ur-stuff&ftab=AllFeedback

OH and I even made the website rip off report from the buyer... who also posted all my personal information.. again, nothing that ebay can do... so they tell me....

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/250/RipOff0250819.htm

What are your thoughts? Is it just me or is there an issue here?

[cgcgraded]

WOW, That's quite the story.
I must admit, that I would have refunded the money. Not worth the aggravation.
"Don't sweat the small stuff".... is a book that a friend of mine once told me to read. I never did but got the understanding as I got older. Its about putting things(life) in perspective so you can live a happier, healthier and a longer life.....

Cheers and good luck Sean!:-)

Andrew

[katiusciav]

good theory andrew, use it myself from time to time, however, that's really not the point, and doing so would just ignore the real issues at ebay that would never get resolved when a REAL BIGGER problem happens. ebay can be very irritating at times, especially with their ever personal 'form' email replies...
8.00 or 800.00...again...not the issue here...its funny how quick ebay is to 'correct' a seller's account when they're not performing, but when it comes to buyers....another story..rather disapointing...

[*stealthtech*]

:_|I agreee Andrew, and I really wanted to return the big $8.00, I mean , really $8.00 is not worth it, the buyer was a real winner from the start thus my hesitation in the refund, he never wanted to return the product, jsut wanted the money back.... then it went downhill from there...

I agree there Kat, eBay is very much on the side of the buyer and not the seller! I try to run a business here and it is hard when I do the investigation for them, present the evidence and they walk away saying no violation... Again, can their staff be this stupid? :_|

[katiusciav]

i disagree that its only '8.00'...doing nothing will encourage this person, or give them better ideas to continue their behaviour in the present, and start trying to scam for much more. by doing something about their behaviour right away, ebay sends a message that NO AMOUNT is acceptable, and that ebay is quick and efficient at eliminating stuff like this.
ebay is currently trying to make it as easy as possible for buyers to register to make it a 'buyer friendly' marketplace, so that they can make more money. it opens the door to scammers and the like. in the end, if they don't tighten their belts on the registration process, it will hurt the sellers bigtime.
i haven't done any research on this, but IS THERE ANY SCENARIO where if the SELLER gets scammed, paypal/ebay will reimburse the seller??? ebay puts alot of effort into weaning out the 'bad sellers' to protect the buyers, and rightfully so, i wish they put as much effort though into protecting sellers from bad buyers as well...

[cgcgraded]

Sorry Kat, I don't see a scam. I see a hothead that caused the situation to get out of controll.
Ebays version of "road rage".

Andrew

[*stealthtech*]

wow Andrew... so cleary you have on the same blinders as this eBay!

The buyer was pissed off at the phone and demands that I drive 45 min to pick it up! Then I offered a refund if he sends it back, and he refused to ship it back?

I am supose to drop everything and refund the money without the product? Why do I sell stuff, why not just give everything away for free?

Then, the buyer makes a second account, and get a second bad comment from a brand new buyer who claims to the be origional buyers brother????

You see nothing wrong with a buyer violating eBay policy and eBay doing not a damm thing about?


Right here http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/feedback-abuse-withdrawal.html it reads Feedback Abuse A seller blocks a buyer from bidding on his items using the eBay blocked bidder feature. The buyer creates another User ID to get around the block, wins the item and then leaves negative feedback. eBay will remove the feedback upon request of the seller.

SO why did eBay not remove it??? THEY DONT CARE ABOUT THE SELLER, only the buyer.. CLEARLY you can see that no?

[katiusciav]

creating another id for ill purposes, is, in my opinion, a form of a scam. ebay not doing anything sends a very powerful message to the buyer, leaving room for further intent...

[cgcgraded]

Sean, I agree that the situation got way out of control and the buyer should be kicked off ebay! I see revenge as opposed to a scam.
I also agree that ebay didn't look into it far enough for whatever reason.
My opinion about the refund was to save a headache over $8. Hope you get some satisfaction at ebay live.
I am on your side Sean, I just don't tend to get bent out of shape over such things. The world is full of crazy people. You find one, cut your ties and move on.
All the best.:-)

Andrew

[treasure-pot]

Sean, put this into perspective.

For an $8 sale you:

- have two blotches on your feedback (albeit jointly removed, the comments remain)

- have a report on your company posted to The Ripoff Report (bad publicity is damaging)

- your email response to that initial report has now escalated to the point where the buyer has now posted again further damaging your company reputation

- aggravated your customer to the point of issuing threats causing you to involve authorities (do you think they don't wonder why you received the threats?)

- have spent substantial time and aggravation with eBay T&S (not unlike a previous crusade for an insignificant Powerseller certificate which I hope has been mounted into a frame worth several hundreds of dollars and is hung prominently within your store)

Are things really that slow in Lindsay that your can afford all this time, aggravation and bad will over $8?? All this time I had just assumed that moving to a smaller town was less stressful.

What are your thoughts? Is it just me or is there an issue here?

Since you are asking, IMO (from what you have posted and what I have read) it is just you. Starting another crusade over an $8 sale for a non-working item that was missing parts just don't make sense. The phone probably shouldn't have been offered for sale in the first place. Refund and move on before it gets even more out of hand. You can argue "principle" all you like but I'm prepared to bet your PO'd customer is going to say the same thing. In the end, it will be your business that suffers and the buyer will still be around.

Bill treasure-pot

[treasure-pot]

your can afford = you can afford

don't make sense = doesn't make sense

Sheesh, where is a copy editor when you need one?

Bill treasure-pot

[*stealthtech*]

Thank you for your thoughts Bill... however, my point is once again eBay does nothing for the seller! Like I said.... why have rules when they dont enforce them?

[*stealthtech*]

I as a seller cant make several accounts for the purpose of leaveing bad comments... why can a buyer? You Bill, as Canada's leading Education Specialist trained by eBay see nothing wtong with that? ?:|

[treasure-pot]

Crusade on Sean... crusade on.

Actually, if your buyer was a seller you most certainly could create several ID's and make purchases and leave unwarranted negs. But that would just be a ridiculous continuation of this already lengthy saga.

eBay has many rules that affect buyers (three strikes, false contact info, feedback extortion, etc). IMO this is simply a case where a buyer feels taken advantage of vs a seller that says "you didn't read the description". Both are stuck on $8. The buyer takes some form of action against the sellers who retaliates and it just continues to escalate.

It's not really a case that eBay does nothing for the seller. In this instance it is that eBay did nothing for you. I have no doubt that the original buyer, his brother and probably (by now) his Aunt Kate are all gunning for you. It's likely more family members will join in when you send the buyer emails like "said nice try on the second account and that he cant leave feedback being new". Why not just send him an email that says "I have your $8 and there is nothing you can do about it... nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah."

Most certainly there are rules for both buyers and sellers to abide by on eBay. IMO you may need to pick your spots when asking for eBay's help a little better. An $8 broken cellphone without an antenna may not have been the best place to call for help. It may also not be the best place to pick a quarrel that leads to all sorts of bad publicity that eventually damages your business.

My opinion... sorry if you don't approve. Let others comment.

Bill treasure-pot

[*stealthtech*]

Hey Bill,

It's funny eh? You focus the same energy to argue with me and everyone else on all the other boards/posts as i have with eBay staff over this!

I guess I can ask you the same question:

Are things really that slow in Kitchener that your can afford all this time and aggravation?

I mean, I just assume that by being Canada's leading Education Specialist trained by eBay that you would have more brains then that and would not take the time to argue with everyone over everything and that it would be less stressful?!?!

I guess someone needs to make all kinds of accounts and leave you all kinds of (-) comments for you to get it eh?

:-x Crusade on Treasure Pot Sales Emporium ;-)

[treasure-pot]

Sorry Sean... you really do bring it on yourself. If you don't want opinions - don't ask for them! Nuff said.

Bill treasure-pot

[westernstargifts]

It is obvious that buyers DO NOT READ the terms they are agreeing to when placing a bid.

Sean did try to give the guy a refund. The guy refused to abide by the terms of the contract and expected to keep the item AND receive a refund. Had Sean refunded the money without getting the phone back, the guy probably would still have left neutral feedback. Sean would be out the $8 and the phone but would probably not have all the bad publicity he has received.

However, I totally agree with Sean and Kat that this buyer should be forced to follow the rules just like the sellers are required to do. And road rage or revenge or whatever you would call his response is no justification for him being allowed to get away with obvious feedback extortion and physical threats. Sean tried to stick to the terms in his listing and did not know that it would escalate into physical threats. Why should we be exposed to people like that?

From what I have read and experienced in my limited time of selling on eBay I am becoming more and more disillusioned with eBay policies. They seem to enforce them only for buyers and not for sellers. I have my own issue with eBay allowing sellers to charge excessive S/H so they can avoid listing fees and undercut (seemingly) their competitors' prices. I am continually amazed that people will pay those fees just to get the item "cheaper". Meanwhile the sellers who do this are making money hand over fist by circumventing listing fees and eBay is making money from the honest sellers. I noticed last night that a seller from whom I purchased MANY items last year has gone the same way, lowering their starting bid and charging excessive S/H. Very disappointing! They won't be getting my business again. And yet another eBay policy violation about which they do diddly squat.

Sorry to get off your topic Sean. I sympathize with you, but you have done all that you can and I have to agree with the others that it is time to put it behind you and move on.

The best of luck to you with your business!

[cgcgraded]

Hey Sean. I see your situation has been resolved. He left a nice note on the 'ripoff' site. Glad to see you took the high road and straightened things out with your buyer. Your problem with ebay....well that's one that probly won't get solved easily.
All the best.:-)

Andrew

[katiusciav]

(do you think they don't wonder why you received the threats?)


why should they??? that would be automatically siding with the buyer...we all know there's plenty of buyers on ebay that require nothing to leave a threat.
if it were me, and an 8$ item, i would have refunded and moved on, i do it for larger items, (of course, not for buyers who don't deserve it, or where it isn't warranted...it just isn't worth it)...however, if sean wants to fight for the principle, its his perogative...no harm in SOME people fighting for the principle once in a while, big or small...

[westernstargifts]

I'm glad it is finished Sean. Hopefully you will never have to deal with that guy again.:O

One thing I would like to mention though is what he said on the Rip-Off website regarding your taking his threat as a physical threat. In my husband's workplace a guy was immediately fired last year for telling another person to "watch his back". Threats of any kind are not tolerated there, whether they are outright threats, implied or open to interpretation. Too many people have been hurt in this world when a threat was not taken seriously. When you don't know the guy, how can you make a decision whether or not the threat is real?

And people who make threats on eBay should NOT BE ALLOWED ON eBay!!!! IMHO