eBay

captainjfrosty · ‎06-02-2023

I have learned today that eBay International Shipping, in some occurrences, can be Kafkaesque.

Here's the deal:

A seller sent me unopened packs of football cards in an open box . I received opened packs of football cards in an open box. We figured something must have happened at either the eBay International shipping hub/facility, or at customs.

Through contacting customer service (the agent was very nice and helpful, by the way), I learned that with eBay International Shipping, it appears that once it gets through their shipping facility, the buyer is done with the transaction. They cannot issue partial or full refunds anymore, nor can they ever get (in this case) the cards back if we were to come to an agreement.

Instead, the only possible option offered to me as a buyer was to send all of the cards back to eBay (through DHL of all things) to get a full refund. Then, they can do whatever they want with the cards. They can keep them, sell them, whatever.

It feels totally crazy to me that a middle man who was most likely the full or partial cause of me getting already opened packs of cards is asking me to send them back the cards. If a seller directly sent me opened packs that were supposed to be unopened, we could easily come to an agreement for a partial refund or something, but with eBay, nothing besides returning them is possible.

So basically, because eBay or customs messed up during the shipment, the only possible outcome besides me just dealing with it and keeping the cards, is to send eBay the cards, in which case neither the seller or the buyer end up with the item, and eBay can do whatever they want with it.

I'm not crazy to think this is borderline unethical, right? I can understand them not wanting people to game the system by just scamming eBay or something, but the current way of working does feel like eBay is gaming the buyer into giving up on the item they ordered if they want a refund, even if eBay themselves likely were the source of the problem.

If it's so easy for people on any side to feel gamed when aproblem arises, maybe the whole system isn't working in the first place, no?

marnotom! · ‎06-02-2023

@captainjfrosty wrote:

Through contacting customer service (the agent was very nice and helpful, by the way), I learned that with eBay International Shipping, it appears that once it gets through their shipping facility, the buyer is done with the transaction. They cannot issue partial or full refunds anymore, nor can they ever get (in this case) the cards back if we were to come to an agreement.

I'm assuming you meant that "the seller is done with the transaction." 😁

You might want to have a gander at the eBay International Shipping terms and conditions. The set for buyers is linked on every listing page where eIS is the stated shipping method. While the damage to your shipment is concerning, the rest of your experience doesn't come as a surprise to me:

https://pages.ebay.com/internationalshippingprogram/buyer/terms/

@captainjfrosty wrote:

So basically, because eBay or customs messed up during the shipment, the only possible outcome besides me just dealing with it and keeping the cards, is to send eBay the cards, in which case neither the seller or the buyer end up with the item, and eBay can do whatever they want with it.

I'm not crazy to think this is borderline unethical, right? I can understand them not wanting people to game the system by just scamming eBay or something, but the current way of working does feel like eBay is gaming the buyer into giving up on the item they ordered if they want a refund, even if eBay themselves likely were the source of the problem.

It would be unethical if buyer and seller weren't made whole in the process, but the buyer gets a refund and the seller gets to keep their money from the sale, which leaves EasyShip (or whoever's administering eIS) in the position of having to recover as much as they can from the sale by liquidating the item, if possible.

While I appreciate that it's more than disappointing not to receive an item you purchased in the condition stated on the listing page, I'm not sure what's "bonkers" or "kafkaesque" about eIS's claim process just because it's different than what you're used to for a direct shipment.

captainjfrosty · ‎06-02-2023

@marnotom! wrote:
I'm assuming you meant that "the seller is done with the transaction." 😁

Yes, sorry.

@marnotom! wrote:
It would be unethical if buyer and seller weren't made whole in the process, but the buyer gets a refund and the seller gets to keep their money from the sale, which leaves EasyShip (or whoever's administering eIS) in the position of having to recover as much as they can from the sale by liquidating the item, if possible.

While I appreciate that it's more than disappointing not to receive an item you purchased in the condition stated on the listing page, I'm not sure what's "bonkers" or "kafkaesque" about eIS's claim process just because it's different than what you're used to for a direct shipment.

Because we're basically only given one option, even in the case that the problem arose after eBay took over during shipment. It's not just different, it's a bad system.

What if you order a very rare item, something that you cannot replace? You still need to send it back to eBay no matter what the issue or damage is? If eBay wants people to still buy on their platform, they shouldn't be pushing for such a... discutable program. Partial or total refunds while not having to send back the item to the seller is one of the most common things on the Internet when the seller messed up. That eBay's latest international shipment option completely goes against that and then tries to recoup as much as they can from the sale by potentiallty liquidating the item is absurd. They messed up my item, and then they only option they offer is for me to part with the item so that they can liquidate it? Why should I lose the item in return of any form of reimbursement when the problem came from their end? The buyer is not "made whole" in this case, they're just being asked to give up on what they paid for and ordered because someone messed up during eBay's part of the shipment. It really just feels like we're stuck dealing with a middle man nobody wants to deal with who is saying "Hey, I know I messed up, but please give me the item back so that I can at least profit a little from it". Screw that, you messed up, deal with it.

I've honestly never seen such a bad system before when it comes to shipping and refunding. If the attitude we're going with is just "Oh well, that's how it works", then we shouldn't be surprised if people just stop shopping on eBay eventually.

marnotom! · ‎06-02-2023

I have an interest in historical and rare items, too, and I agree it's pretty appalling that items sent through eIS that gets damaged or dead-ended due to the carrier not being able to forward them are liquidated or destroyed, but I can see why it's done this way. You may remember that the old Global Shipping Program allowed buyers to hang onto damaged items and get a refund if the buyer filed a claim through eBay. I guess somebody did some number-crunching and concluded that this wouldn't work so well with eIS's system. Sellers get a schwackload of perks through eIS that they didn't get through the GSP, so I guess the perks are what we're paying for instead of a contingency fund for damage.

I will say that I think eBay is doing a somewhat better job of educating sellers on eIS than they did with the GSP, though, as well as making sellers take more responsibility for their listings when using this program as opposed to the old one. While we may not like how eIS handles damage claims, we do have to remember that it's ultimately the seller's choice as to whether or not to use the program. They should be reading up on the terms and conditions, too, and deciding if the program is appropriate for the items they sell.

You should consider posting your concerns on the .com discussion boards if you haven't already done so.

captainjfrosty · ‎06-02-2023

You're right, and I understand how it is a much better program for sellers, but it just seems like such a worse one for buyers I'm wondering if there shouldn't be some middle ground somewhere.

I do recognize that there seems to be more US sellers willing to ship to Canada through eIS than GSP based on the amount of listings I'm now seeing, but ironically, the random shipping cost spikes on some items, the inability to combine shipping if you buy multiple different listings from the same seller, the spotty tracking and problems such as the one I just had really are pushing me, and probably many other buyers, away from buying items on eBay.

And I did not post on the .com board, but I'll consider doing it. Thanks for the idea.

femmefan1946 · ‎06-02-2023

A seller sent me unopened packs of football cards ... I received opened packs of football cards

Because I am old and cranky, I wonder if the packs were open before shipping or if they were opened at the eIS plant.

There is effectively no way to know.

Partial or total refunds while not having to send back the item to the seller is one of the most common things on the Internet when the seller messed up.

And from a seller's point of view an invitation to lying and theft.

The buyer ends up with the disputed item, even if it is exactly as described, and also the payment.

The seller is out the cost of item, the shipping and packaging costs for the item, eBay fees on the purchase, the shipping and the sales tax, and does not have the disputed item either.

Which is also not fair.

A seller might agree to that, I did this past week, but it must be with the seller's agreement.

Note that under eBay's Managed Payment Policy, the seller who wants the purchase back usually has to pay return shipping, even if they have a No Returns policy. Which I agree is fair, although it annoys most sellers.

rh6921 · ‎11-03-2023

The speed of eIS is often slow and the tracking is somewhat shoddy. I've had stuff get marked as "Delivered" when it wasn't. I've had a package bounce around Illinois for 3 weeks and then it sat another 3 weeks at the border. So yeah if you're ordering some collectibles or something that you want to remain mint and unopened/undamaged and you have to trust the eBay shipping hub to open it up and repackage it safely then your chances aren't very good with items like that where the packaging matters.

Once the package actually gets into Canada it usually arrives within a week from my experience but the major hold ups happen in Illinois. It's slow yeah but in my experience the speed and processing is not really even the worst problem. The lack of combined shipping is the major problem as it's not sustainable for lower-value items which make up the vast majority of what people can afford and want to buy. With eIS, it's one item, one package, and one shipping fee on every item you buy which is indeed bonkers.

With eIS because every single item is coming in a different package this leads to ridiculous shipping costs for items that should have easily been combined as they were in the past. I've begrudgingly ordered some rarer items from eBay recently for example I ordered two harder-to-find electrical plugs from the same US seller yet they had to come in two different packages and I had to pay a $15 shipping fee on each of them. Both plugs were shipped at the same time, yet one ended up as "Sendle" and the other one "Asendia."

Ultimately both plugs were delivered by Intelcom Courier. One plug arrived in 2ish weeks while the other got stuck at the border for another 2 weeks and took over a month to receive it. Why couldn't they have both simply been sent in the same package for one shipping fee? How does this even make any sense from an economic and environmental standpoint to not offer combined shipping on smaller inexpensive items? The fact is it's just wasted packaging, wasted handling, wasted transit, wasted time, and wasted money.

leaky-bucket-labs · ‎11-06-2023

ebay is obviously out to kill itself and taking away money from americans on purpose. I wanted to by a 8 pin regulator and the best I could find was 1 chip and 23.75usd to ship it and wait a whole month.

I buy fro china and get 5 chips shipped within 2 weeks for $15CAD. thats half what the us sell wanted just for shipping.

GOOD JOB EBAY

flipistics · ‎11-07-2023

@leaky-bucket-labs wrote:
ebay is obviously out to kill itself and taking away money from americans on purpose. I wanted to by a 8 pin regulator and the best I could find was 1 chip and 23.75usd to ship it and wait a whole month.
I buy fro china and get 5 chips shipped within 2 weeks for $15CAD. thats half what the us sell wanted just for shipping.
GOOD JOB EBAY

eBay's new shipping program is definitely full of problems, but comparing the cost with China isn't really fair. China gets special international rates because they were considered a developing country that allow them to ship super cheap, and I believe their government subsidizes it even further.

If you look at costs directly from the States but not through eBay, the USPS cost through Pirate Ship is about $15 USD for something under 4oz. Simple export rate would be a little lower assuming the regulations allow them to use it (unsure). It would be nice for eBay to do shipments to Canada directly rather than through the international program as it would save the extra cost for the seller to ship it to the hub (probably about $5), but it doesn't appear wildly out of wack. The bigger issue is the absurd length of time and the inability for sellers to properly combine orders.

reallynicestamps · ‎11-07-2023

I totally agree with you on the inability for sellers to properly combine orders. This is a poor way to encourage international sales.

And eIS and GSP before it were introduced as Seller Protections specifically to encourage xenophobic Americans to sell overseas.

But having been selling by mail order since the 70s, it's been my experience that taking upwards of three weeks for shipments between any two points in Canada and the USA is nothing unusual. Normally it is faster, and occasionally (not often) slower, but 15-20 days is no big deal.