Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

As subject says.

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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

Answering a question you've been asked is the opposite of incorrectly answering a question you weren't asked. Not answering a question you were asked is as big a social misdemeanour as mansplaining but you may have it any way that you like: I already know the answer, I wanted to see if it matched yours so I was being merely polite. Good day.

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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st


@femmefan1946 wrote:

@rose-dee

 If you do get a reply (but only if you mail your letter -- impossible at the moment!)

When I was doing exactly that job at Indian Affairs, most of our correspondence was emails, and we answered the same way.

The policy was to reply to any correspondence in the same manner it was sent.

I don't know how Twitter is handled. I retired in 2014.

 


I honestly can't say exactly how email is now handled by the PMO; I worked there before email was available, but I'm sure you're right about mode of reply being the same as mode of communication.   

 

What I meant by that sentence above was that you'd only get a mailed reply if you actually mailed your letter.   Even if you trusted Canada Post with your missive at the moment, it might not reach its destination until long after this postal mess is over.  So email or twitter are better right now, as long as you don't mind being lumped into a data base. 

 

Still, I feel the best way for the average citizen to voice complaints is through their local MP -- if the phone lines are jammed up with people's calls on this issue, or people are actually dropping in to personally voice their frustration, that fact will get passed along directly to the upper echelons.  

Message 42 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

One other bone I have to pick (aside from being mad as hell at CUPW's prideful remark about their "accomplishment" of disrupting the entire country),  is with the desultory and dilly-dallying media. 

 

You would think the biggest story behind this postal fiasco would be the thousands of Canadians (like those of us here) who are almost completely dependent upon the postal system for our livelihoods.  Why did it take CBC weeks to make this a story, and then only because Andrea Stairs (of eBay Canada) said something?  CBC reporters were out doing "man on the street" interviews with passers-by who were mostly tepid at best and completely unconcerned at worst.  However these were people out happily shopping at stores, not online sellers whose businesses were failing.  Other news outlets haven't done any better.  But they're welcome to call me -- if they don't mind what they'll hear! 

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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st


@momcqueen wrote:

Answering a question you've been asked is the opposite of incorrectly answering a question you weren't asked. Not answering a question you were asked is as big a social misdemeanour as mansplaining but you may have it any way that you like: I already know the answer, I wanted to see if it matched yours so I was being merely polite. Good day.


I can't do the "splaining" for him -- but he's wrong.  Attempting to create a de facto  lockout by asking people (and countries) not to mail parcels would not only be a pointless exercise in view of the already existing mountainous backlog of mail at the busiest time of year, but would incite all sides to such a hue and cry that the government would be forced to act immediately.  Can you imagine the public outrage at such an attempted ploy?  The union's wrath?  This would be the antithesis of bargaining in good faith.   And it simply wouldn't work within any useful time frame -- even with all hands on deck it could take another month to clear out the backlog that is already piled up (and as you point out, probably waiting offshore as well, part way through the system).  

 

No, I think CPC has to at least maintain an appearance of reasonableness and good management under the circumstances.  It was logical to ask people not to strain an already overloaded system.  

 

I have to add here a curious but revealing remark uttered by our local (semi-rural) delivery person the other day.  I was shocked to hear her say she's "tired of the greed" (referring to her union, CUPW).  I didn't pursue her comment any further, as I realized that she realized she'd let a wildcat out of the bag.  I have to wonder if the union bosses are running this freak show despite the wishes of the majority of workers.  

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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st


@cumos55 wrote:

A site was found where the President of CUPW was interviewed ...

https://marxist.ca/labour/17-labour-news/1425-postal-workers-prepare-for-strike-interview-with-cupw-...

 The question...Do you see the postal workers strike as an opportunity to revive the militant traditions of class struggle unionism?

 The answer ... I think that every potential strike has the potential to do that. For me, this goes back to some of the ABCs of trade unionism. I always say that there are two rules in the labour movement. Rule #1: You don’t get anything unless you fight for it. Rule #2: You don’t get to keep anything, unless you keep fighting. So abandoning the struggle is surrender.

 

Mike Palecek was President of CUPW in 2011,  when CUPW last went on strike.


I'm someone who is married to a lifelong union member (now retired).  I understand the arguments in favour of unions, and what they've accomplished over the last 100 years or so for all workers, men and women.   

 

My issue with CUPW is that they're out of tune with the abilities of a modern Crown corporation to meet all their demands.  Instead of coming to the table in a bargaining spirit, understanding that compromises need to be made, they come with a belligerent, confrontational attitude toward "the company", as if they were still back in 1910 dealing with a draconian robber baron, sitting on millions while his workers made a near-starvation wage.   

 

Those unions of 100 years ago were indeed courageous, because they had everything to lose by their actions (including their very jobs, sometimes even their lives in the worst struggles).  It was a clash, which ultimately levelled the playing field.  You want workers?  Give up some of your riches to pay a living wage, ensure workers aren't killed or seriously injured because of your neglect, and give them reasonable working hours.  

 

Now every time a contract ends, we have a war by CUPW with a constrained corporation over what are relatively small, incremental improvements.   I'm going to sound anti-union saying this, but I believe the government needs to better define, in advance, precisely which services in this country are essential, and place a time limit by legislation on how long the parties have to resolve their contract issues in those services.   You have, say, 3 weeks to sort out issues and come to an agreement, or the government will intervene.  I think it's time for certain unions to wake up and realize they are operating in the 21st century, and negotiate not only in good faith, but in good understanding of the bigger picture.   They are not just hurting the employer (or themselves) anymore, but an entire sector of the country's population. 

 

If they don't take a different approach, unions are not only going to lose all public support, but  jeopardize the existence of the very corporations to which they are so antagonistic -- leading to massive job losses.  Does that really serve the union's long term best interests?

 

You mentioned on today's Wednesday chat the concept of a class-action suit by online sellers against CUPW.  While I abhor American style hair-trigger litigiousness, from a legal standpoint the idea has some merit.  From a political or practical standpoint, the shock to the system of a whole sector of Canadians suing CUPW might be effective in its message, even if not entirely successful in court (i.e. only partial awards of damages).  As in, next time, bargain in good faith to reach a prompt resolution of your grievances, or we'll do it again.  Maybe we can hold them  over a barrel.   

 

This is something eBay Canada could look into, i.e. representing Canadian sellers in a formal suit.  There are certainly damages that can be proven, and certainly a direct causation.  Quantifying individual damages would be complicated, but eBay has the global figures at hand.  I'm sorry the Wed. chat was closed before I could ask whether this is in fact being considered. 

Message 45 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

I agree wholeheartedly. The General Strike of 1919 in Winnipeg is a source of no small amount of pride to most Manitobans; I commented last week that the powerful minds behind that revolution would be rolling in their graves right now. 

Message 46 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

I think a class action lawsuit against CUPW would be well worth exploring. If the union bosses thought THEY might suffer negative consequences from their actions, maybe they would bargain in good faith.
Bargaining implies a reasonable give and take on both sides. Mike Palecek's attitudes seem antiquated and locked in the 19th century. While I understand how important the union movement was back then, this is 2018 and realities are changing faster every decade. The past 20 years are littered with the obsolete corpses of companies that could not (or would not) adapt to the technological revolution.

I have never been anti-union as some members of my family have had union jobs and benefited from them. However this unreasonable display of utter arrogance by Mike Palecek has shifted my attitude against CUPW permanently. I believe Canada post will be crippled to the point of useless if it does not transform in the next decade.

It needs to either be declared an service essential to the well being of the Canadian economy due to the increase in online sales or privatized. Costs must be brought under control, otherwise it will soon be too expense to use. Prices on parcels are getting to unacceptable levels. In 2015 I could mail a small item to the USA for $5 by light packet (no longer available), now it costs $8.49 to ship it by small packet. The result has been a decrease by about two thirds in sales to the USA.

One final thought. I had a very interesting conversation at my local post office with an employee I have known a number of years. They told me that they thought it was time to "get rid of the union" which shocked me to hear. They said that workers were frustrated by not having a vote on the last offer and that it likely would have been excepted. Interesting times.
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st


@forester_studios wrote:

One final thought. I had a very interesting conversation at my local post office with an employee I have known a number of years. They told me that they thought it was time to "get rid of the union" which shocked me to hear. They said that workers were frustrated by not having a vote on the last offer and that it likely would have been excepted. Interesting times.

That's very interesting.  It aligns with what my local postal carrier let slip out the other day, about being "sick of the greed" of the union.  As I said in another post, I was too reluctant to follow up with her on exactly what she meant, and there was an awkward moment of silence where I saw that she realized she'd said something she shouldn't have said.  But it got my attention.   

 

I think the government has to decide whether it wants the country's online retail sector to survive in the long run, or whether it's more important to allow anachronistic and near-nihilistic union action to continue. 

 

 The busiest selling season is just about wrecked for most of us, in view of the fact that there is such a backlog that no delivery times can be guaranteed even if the postal dispute were settled tomorrow.  How many of these uncontrollable and unpredictable slowdowns, strikes, bottlenecks and shutdowns can small businesses bear without going under?  Add the ever-increasing postal costs after a whole season of losses, and a large number of such businesses may have to call it quits.  Large retailers will start looking elsewhere for delivery service, or even organize their own "postal" system for parcels.   Canada Post itself will suffer loss of revenue from both scenarios, making it less able to compete and pull itself up into profitability again.  

 

Is this the result the union wants?  No work at all for hundreds or thousands of its members?  Bleed the stone dry until you break it?  I'm sorry to say this, but all sympathy I may have had left for CUPW disappeared when I saw that remark made by its president crowing about their "accomplishment" of having disrupted the entire country.  Good work guys, ruin us all, and count yourself in the losses.   It's so short-sighted and misguided it's almost laughable -- if it weren't so serious. 

 

It just occurred to me that the federal government itself may now also have a direct stake in the postal service continuing uninterrupted -- aren't the feds in charge of the online sale of cannabis?  I'm surprised their customers haven't been screaming for a resolution to this postal dispute too.  

Message 48 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

Excellent comments Rose-Dee. I'll just add my thoughts.

The painful fact at the center of this whole mess is that Canada post's culture has become dysfunctional to a toxic level that cannot continue. The CUPW leaders made a big miscalculation if they thought CP would cave because it's Q4. They have also made themselves look like villans to a lot of Canadians. Even some of the union members that observe and think independently can see this. Something has to change or the online economy in Canada will be crippled. Even big retailers like Sears could not adapt and survive. What chance does the little guy have to hold their head up proudly and work every day to survive?

The union boss is like a guy pointing a loaded gun at his head with only one bullet loaded in it. "Click, so far so good!" he says. Eventually his luck WILL run out. I just hope we small business folk can survive until then.
Message 49 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

I had a similar conversation yesterday with a postal outlet worker.  She isn’t in the union of course but does have contact with those who are and who are according to her, upset that they were not able to vote on the last offer.  They also mentioned that there seems to be  a minimum of  backlogged mail in western Canada which is good news for me although I admit I am nervous for buyers in Ontario and Quebec.

Message 50 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

Lets hope things get resolved soon. I have a few lettermail parcels going out to Ontario/Quebec today so hopefully they will arrive in the next few weeks.
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

If CUPW cared about their members they would have put a reasonable offer to vote instead of worrying about what international conference completely unrelated to postal services they were going to attend in the spring. Free trips off the backs of the workers you profess to care about. That's rich.

Message 52 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

That's exactly how I feel about it too. I'm sure the average postal worker would have been relieved to put this behind them for a month while taking their $1000-signing bonus to the bank to do their own online shopping for the holidays. The postal union members are people too, it seems like only their upper level management brass isn't. 

 

And then the fighting could have resumed in January when it wouldn't be great for anyone but at least it wouldn't kill people. But we all know how that went.

 

How many hours are left in the 48-hour notice? 

 

I encourage everyone tonight, like I did yesterday, to write the PMO, their MP, the Minister of Labour and at least one Letter to the Editor. Do it. I did. 

 

And today I am accepting whatever insulting lowball offer comes in just because I'm that desperate to make sales that I'm willing to lose money in the long run just to make it in the short.

 

 

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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

There will never be a lock out of postal employees. Who do you think would do their 54,000 jobs if they are locked out? Elves? People who even suggest a lock out as a solution are uniformed on how Union negotiations are carried out. It will never happen as long as it is a crown corporation, ever, and would be political suicide for any PM to ever consider getting involved, or say good bye to 54000 votes. Online shopping is important, but not the end of the world if it can not be done. I'll shop local this year.

Message 54 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

There will never be a lock out of postal employees? 

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/2803505/canada-post-issues-72-hour-notice-to-union/

 

 

Message 55 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

Privatizing a Crown Corporation would mean that the Government would be giving up an income stream that consistently put $100 million or more into the Treasury every year.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Post

If anyone thinks unions are no longer necessary, they can look at Ontario, where the Conservatives have rolled back the minimum wage to $14,brought back doctor's notes for short term sick leave over the objections of doctors, cancelled equal payment for part time and casual workers, and cancelled 'personal emergency days'.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-open-for-business-bill-148-repeal-1.4874351

 

 

Message 56 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

Please elaborate on how union negotiations are carried out.

 

Also, online selling *is* the end of the world for some of us if it cannot be done. Maybe online shopping is of no serious consequence to you, but online selling is for me. My bill for electricity hasn't been paid yet this month because I haven't met my sales targets for November due to the rotating strikes. 

 

I'm not alone in this.

 

Small sellers are shuttering their shops on ebay because they're worried about cases being opened against them for Items Not Received due to delivery delays on lettermail and untracked airmail. Who's going to buy turkey for their Christmas dinner?

 

Telling someone to relax while their business suffering as if it's no big deal is like handing someone a one-legged stool and telling them to have a seat and chill for awhile. It cannot be done. 

 

I have more empathy for the ebay sellers seated uncomfortably on a one-legged stool than I have for some fat cat with the union who won't allow his own people to vote on an offer that would have put everyone back to work amicably for a brief point in time and then resume negations later.

 

It seems like this is something no one should ever even have to explain.

 

 

Message 57 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

Totally agree Rose.  No matter what happens now, even if they got legislated back to work it is too late for this Christmas season. Would sure like to see something put in place to ensure this situation does not happen again. The cost of this strike action in Canada cannot be measured & I too am totally fed up with this union. I am reminded of what Trudeau said to the veteran at a town hall meeting out west (although in that case I believe he was wrong) “ they are asking for more than we can give”.

Message 58 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st

Allowing to get "locked out" by not agreeing to ratify a collective agreement is a bargaining tool, and it only strengthens the union position for a better contract generally.  

Message 59 of 62
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Re: Canada Post offer "Ceasefire" until January 31st


@mapleleaf-collectibles wrote:

Allowing to get "locked out" by not agreeing to ratify a collective agreement is a bargaining tool, and it only strengthens the union position for a better contract generally.  


You do have a point (i.e. that the Corporation can continue to look like the victim and not the bully as long as they don't lock the workers out).  But CPC did threaten it last time, and the pressure from large online venues like eBay and Amazon to do so again must be great by now.    

The problem I see is that CUPW forgets (or chooses to ignore) that it's not simply a war between the union and the corporation anymore as it was in earlier decades, with Canadians missing getting their hydro bills or Christmas cards.  Now they're also holding an entire (and important) sector of the Canadian economy at ransom, at its most vulnerable time of year. 

 

In a very real sense, sellers like myself and so many others here constitute an unwilling part of the equation, even though we have no seat at the table.   Canada Post surely knows it, but apparently CUPW couldn't care less -- if we judge by their arrogant statement of being proud of the "accomplishment" of disrupting the entire country.   This looks merely like chest-thumping, not a desire to engage in good faith bargaining.  

 

Personally I think the union has overplayed its hand and ignorantly misread the situation.   They have put thousands of people's very financial survival on the line, seemingly gleefully.  How long will public support for their own grievances last?  I doubt there would be many tears shed if Canada Post now locked them out.  

 

In any case, this may soon all be moot.  It appears the government is already drafting back-to-work legislation.  Sadly, with the existing backlog and Christmas approaching fast, it will likely be too late for a lot of online sellers and will only bounce the whole issue down the road.  

 

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