Ignorant People

[nuvistors]

This   man wants to send his brats to a religious school but does not want them to take all the classes offered.He has the choice of changing schools.

Catholic schools: Ontario parents fighting to have children exempt from religious studies

A Brampton father has won a partial exemption from religious studies for his son but may still take a Catholic school board to court to win a full pass, as other parents across the province fight for a basic right outlined in the Education Act.

A Brampton father has won a partial exemption from religious studies for his son but may still take a Catholic school board to court to win a full pass, as other parents across the province fight for a basic right outlined in the Education Act.

Oliver Erazo has been battling the Dufferin-Peel Catholic District School Board since last spring to obtain a full exemption from religious courses and programs for his son Jonathan, a Grade 10 student at Notre Dame Catholic Secondary School.

Erazo and his wife initially chose Notre Dame for their children because it’s the closest to their home and garners favourable ratings on a school-ranking website.

Erazo, who now has a lawyer working on his behalf pro bono, said a court may have to ultimately decide the issue, which falls under the Education Act’s open-access legislation.

“I think the only thing they (the board) would understand is a court order,” said Erazo, whose son received a one-year exemption from a mandatory religion course, but must stay home rather than work at school during other religious programs.

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, a lawyer representing Erazo, said the law clearly states parents can get a full exemption for their children from religious courses and programs.

“The exemption is clearly worded and it’s the law,” Erskine-Smith said, pointing out many parents across the province are struggling with the same issues.

“They’ve granted us most of what we’ve requested, they just haven’t acknowledged that they were required to do so.”

Erskine-Smith said he and his client are considering bringing an application to court that would enforce Erazo’s rights and ensure the “Catholic school board acts in accordance with their obligations under the Education Act.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/02/03/catholic_schools_ontario_parents_fighting_to_have_chil...

[puckstopshere]

Public schools should have absolutely no religious affliation at all. Public schools should teach the basics to succeed in life.

Maybe yes, maybe no.

In my lifetime, I have spent some time studying various religions.

By studying religions and cultures, you get a broader understanding of the world around you.

It makes you more tolerant and accepting of others beliefs and ways of life. One doesn't necessarily have to accept all these different religions and cultures. But, knowledge of them can only enrich your own way of life.

As a kid and a young adult, I went to a variety of churches. I learned a lot about various beliefs and ways that people interpret those beliefs. Although I believe in the existence of some force out there that helped to shape this world, I do not call that god. Things like infinity and the endlessness of space are hard concepts to grasp without some assistance. The idea that all of this universe is the result of a grand accident somehow doesn't wash - at least not in my own personal view.

Over the years, I have come to dislike organized religions as they rarely practice what they preach. In their own way, they are like governments, with all their flaws and foibles. I have known two Catholic priests in my lifetime who lived like kings while many of their parishioners struggled to feed and clothe their kids.

If you are Christian, you believe that "thou shalt not kill"; yet Christians have killed millions in the name of their god. "Thou shalt not commit adultery'" is another good one. How many Christians have violated this one? "Thou shalt not steal" is a biggie - I interpret that as not cheating or lying or defrauding for personal gain. To be a Christian, one should folow in the footsteps of Christ - not just on SUnday morning, but every day.

Sorry to pick on Christianity, but it is the one I am most familiar with.

I am sure there are others in other religions who claim to be true believers, yet don't practice their faith in every day life.

[threebears63too]

Hi all,

As far as I am concerned the only thing that should be before the courts in Canada is a fight for equal funding for all accepted educational methods, religious or otherwise.

It still amazes me that Catholicism is the only religion supported by the government to have their own schools in Canada. This is supposed to be a country that supports equality in all things, so where are the publicly funded Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, and_______ (fill in the blank for any religion you choose) schools?

It should be all or none. Everyone should have to pay for a religious education or no-one should.

How about they get rid of the Catholic schools, and all public schools from JK up to grade 12 offer optional religious classes in all faiths, then you can sign up if you want it, or don't bother. 

When my daughter was school aged a few of her friends went to the local Catholic high school, not because they were Catholic, but because it was better equipped and more up to date than the public high school. We only have the two high schools.

I wanted to send my daughter to the Christian school here, because it was nice small class sizes etc, but it would have meant an hour and a half round trip twice a day for me to take her and pick her back up because there was no bussing (we live rurally), plus about $6,000 per year out of pocket. 

It was not feasible, we home schooled instead, which I realize is not an option for many.

She now works as a teaching assistant in our local Montessori school, and it irks her that Ontario is the only province in Canada that does not fund the Montessori method of education, so it is tuition only for her students.  The Montessori method has been taught in Canada for one hundred years, what's the hold up Ontario?

Back to the OP I think that the father is fighting the wrong fight, he should be fighting for better quality education within the public school system, he should be trying to get the public system up to par with what he feels is better about the school his son attends.  I do however hear what he is saying, if the school is publicly funded, that makes it a public school, therefore his son should not have to take religious classes. Honestly though, I think he is more about grabbing headlines. He is not doing his son any favours, I am sure that poor kid is having an awful time at school now.

Cheers,

Heather

[pierrelebel]

"It still amazes me that Catholicism is the only religion supported by the government to have their own schools in Canada"

It goes back to the Canadian Constitution in 1867, giving Canadians rights based on the reality that existed at the time, nearly 150 years ago.

To change the Canadian constitution in area of provincial jurisdiction (education) may prove to be difficult, even if it is outdated.

"The Constitution of Canada does not establish separate school education as a natural or unconditional right available to all. Only Protestants or Roman Catholics, whichever is the minority faith population compared to the other in a community, ca..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school 

[ilurkthereforiam]

If they don't want to provide exemptions from religious studies they should stop taking public money.

As far as I am concerned religion does not belong in school unless all religions are being taught.

[pierrelebel]

Write to your MP and ask to change the Constitution.

[puckstopshere]

It goes back to the Canadian Constitution in 1867, giving Canadians rights based on the reality that existed at the time, nearly 150 years ago.

Interesting.  Are we saying that things put on paper 150 years ago, may not be relevant in today's changing world.  Wonder if that applies to some other pieces of paper, such as treaties?

[puckstopshere]

As far as I am concerned the only thing that should be before the courts in Canada is a fight for equal funding for all accepted educational methods, religious or otherwise.

I tend to agree.

However, the government's concern is that fragmentation of the educational system will result in a poorer system.

It would seem that people should be able to direct their education taxes to whichever school or educational institution that they choose.  That would work as long as the institution they choose follows a basic curriculum established for ALL schools.  In that way, we can insure that all students receive the same basic education.

Another problem I see is similar to various religions.  When it was established that churches/religions would have a tax free status, what happened?  Every Tom, Dick and Mary wanted to start a religion to take advantage of the tax free status.

Another problem I see is that you would have to define an educational institution.  If a person home schooled their kids, could they withold their edcational taxes?  If four families got together and formed their own school, would they qualify to keep their own educaional taxes.

It could wind up as a huge mess.  Not to mention that the government would need a whole new set of rules to decide who and what qualifies.  Just what we need - another set of rules - and another group of high-paid civil servants to administer the rules.

[dipmicro]

Interesting.  Are we saying that things put on paper 150 years ago, may not be relevant in today's changing world.  Wonder if that applies to some other pieces of paper, such as treaties?

Good one 🙂 Gave me a chuckle.

[pierrelebel]

"Are we saying that things put on paper 150 years ago, may not be relevant in today's changing world. "

No, many of these things should be changed.  The documents may no longer be "relevant" but they are the law of the land.

"Wonder if that applies to some other pieces of paper, such as treaties?"

Same answer. Some interpretations today have no basis to the intent of those agreements.  The so-called "land ownership" rights for instance.

Things written hundreds of years ago had a contemporary meaning at the time. Today, much of it is meaningless or out-of-context.

We see the problem everywhere.  In the USA, they are stock with their 2nd amendment for example. Until they amend their constitution, folks have the right to buy and operate machine guns designed for soldiers.

What is needed is an easier system to amend our constitution.  However, we all remember the efforts of the last fifty years on the subject.  Not easy. 

I wish there was an answer other than just trying to understand the problems, without prejudice and political motivation.

[ilurkthereforiam]

A lot of religious groups like to use religion as an excuse to bully others.

Either provide full funding for all qualified schools or provide full funding only for the public schools.

[puckstopshere]

What is needed is an easier system to amend our constitution.

Ouch!  I would hate to see the ability to easily amend the constitution in the hands of a majority PM such as Harper.  Or any other majority leader, for that matter.  Constitutional amendments should be the subject of much discussion - and possibly a vote by all the people. 

[dipmicro]

Original link disapeared, here is the new one: http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/02/03/catholic_schools_ontario_parents_fighting_to_have_children_exempt_from_religious_studies.html

There is some controversy:

1) The board told him Jonathan could stay home from school during morning liturgies and return upon the program’s completion, but Erazo wants his son to be able to work in the school library or office with supervision during such events.

2) the school said non-Catholic students are expected to attend masses and other religious programs, but do not have to actively participate. “They sit quietly and respectfully. They can still receive a blessing. It’s really important to participate in the life of the school.

So which one is it, Mr Campbell ? Is he exempted, partially exempted, sometimes exempted, when you have good mood exempted, or he has to participate ?

[ilurkthereforiam]

The RC church rarely changes their policies and are willing to violate the civil rights of people claiming religious freedom and we want to trust them with something as important as educating our children?

I think not.

Imo we should take away funding for catholic schools.

Were they not the ones who we trusted to school 1st nation's kids who took away their identities as 1st nations people?

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

Maybe yes, maybe no.

In my lifetime, I have spent some time studying various religions.

By studying religions and cultures, you get a broader understanding of the world around you.

It makes you more tolerant and accepting of others beliefs and ways of life. One doesn't necessarily have to accept all these different religions and cultures. But, knowledge of them can only enrich your own way of life.

Very true but there is a difference between ‘studying’ religions and being ‘told’ that that is what you are to believe. Sometimes it’s even very subtle…..for instance…..”god save the queen”. If you don’t believe in god….why would you have to say that!

As a kid and a young adult, I went to a variety of churches.

Did that include Mosques and Synagogues? How about a Coven? I think people should expand their knowledge out of Christianity to other concepts as well.

It still amazes me that Catholicism is the only religion supported by the government to have their own schools in Canada. This is supposed to be a country that supports equality in all things, so where are the publicly funded Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, and_______ (fill in the blank for any religion you choose) schools?

It is an old agreement and governments have to stand by it. Technically a lot of money goes to Catholic schools in taxes because people can say that is where the education tax portion of their money is to go. I think this should be extended to all types of schools….just to be balanced and fair. But that would virtually shut down the public school system. Of course one could say that there will ‘only’ be public schools and no religion taught or implied but ……..the fur will fly about that one! Even in this day and age Rome........has a LOT of power.

Personally….I think religion is dying…..especially Christianity. Oh many people say they believe in it….but, they don’t practice it. It’s sort of like playing every spot on the Christian Roulette table and knowing you have to win somewhere as long as you are betting. Maybe 'god' will forgive the cafeteria outlook?

Some interpretations today have no basis to the intent of those agreements. The so-called "land ownership" rights for instance.

Totally incorrect. Read the treaties………..all of them.

Things written hundreds of years ago had a contemporary meaning at the time. Today, much of it is meaningless or out-of-context.

Those who want more land and more resources that belong to others always say that. Those who have nothing to lose and all to gain through their greed.

Were they not the ones who we trusted to school 1st nation's kids who took away their identities as 1st nations people?

Partially. The Anglicans did it and so did the Episcopalians. Lets not blame the Catholics for it all.

[nuvistors]

Prior wrote  :  Personally….I think religion is dying…..especially Christianity. Oh many people say they believe in it….but, they don’t practice it. It’s sort of like playing every spot on the Christian Roulette table and knowing you have to win somewhere as long as you are betting. Maybe 'god' will forgive the cafeteria outlook?

That is because Christians have evolved and stopped spreading the word with the sword.

Muslims , on the other hand,  live in the dark ages where the infidel either gets killed or pays a tax to be allowed to live.

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

If you only understood history both past and present it would be so beneficial to you.

[puckstopshere]

Did that include Mosques and Synagogues? How about a Coven?

At the time, there were none that I knew of in Vancouver.  I did have a Jewish friend and participated in a number of Jewish religious practices and traditions in their home.  Coven?  What about snake handlers?  Not exactly mainstream.  There are thousands of these smaller religions in the world. 

I did attend a Holy Roller service (dated a member of the congregation).  It was interesting to say the least. 

[pjcdn2005]

because people can say that is where the education tax portion of their money is to go.

I don't know if that is still the case here but I do know that at one time in Alberta we were asked which school board we would like to support

[puckstopshere]

That is because Christians have evolved and stopped spreading the word with the sword.

In many communities, congregations are shrinking.  There are three churches in this area that are now shared by three different religions, all Christian but not the same denomination.  Many congregations are finding it difficult to keep their churches going because donations are shrinking.  So, they sell their building/land and move in with another group. 

[femmefan1946]

The parents chose the closest school over the public school which would have entailed long travel times.

The familyis entitled to be exempted from religious instruction.

I'd be on the side of the parents. Although I would note that this opens their kid to teasing from his schoolmates.

On a related note, many of the Muslim kids in Ottawa attend Catholic schools because the parents think the moral instruction built into the curriculuum is a Good Thing, even if the instruction is based on Christian thinking rather than on Islam. At least one school has set aside a prayer room for Muslim students, as well as their own Catholic chapel.