CP 30g Lettermail Rate, What is it 1.07 or 0.92? The "P" Debate That Never Ends.

[kawartha-ephemera]

My question to other discount postage users, what rate are you using on Domestic 30g lettermail and what has been your experience regarding returned mail?

Last Fall, I presented a piece of regular Domestic 30g Lettermail to our local Postmaster and asked her, do I have enough on there? I wanted her opinion of the discount postage I had applied before dropping the ordinary paper envelope in the mail box.  I had applied one each of 0.76 + 0.10 + 0.06 = 0.92 face value. 

She quickly counted up the values, weighed the envelope and said sure, that's fine. Just to be sure I asked her if there were any concerns at all in continuing the practice on a regular basis. Her answer ... Nope, that's perfectly acceptable.

Since that time I have posted several hundred without trouble, until now. Picked up my mail one day this week to discover a piece had been returend exactly one week after it had been posted. 

Return To Sender - Insufficient Postage - Amount Due 15 cents

The label included this hand written explanation: "Must display $1.07 or 1 "P" stamp. Stamp rate $1.07" 

[ricarmic]

I cannot say because for my "P" letter envelopes, as a customer service, I put on current "P" stamps, however as was discussed before the $1.07 is only if someone from the PO has to put the stamp on.

I have had parcels returned as "too thick" when they weren't. Resending them with no changes (aside from peeling off the label) succeeded with no problems the 2nd time.

What I would do for safety sake is send this one with a "P" on it and figure someone who doesn't know the proper rules did it and hope they don't see any others. (I'd probably send a note to the buyer to let them know what happened with a picture of the envelope - PS the envelope with the note on it is very collectible, especially since the notation is incorrect!!!)

[reallynicestamps]

Somewhere I have an envelope sent to a Cabinet Member marked OHMS and returned to the sender who then sent it back with stamps.
Another collectible piece.
OHMS is "free franking".  Anyone can send a letter to a Member of Parliament or Senator without stamps, because Canadians are encouraged to give their representatives helpful advice.

And someone in the Post Office did not know that.

Postal History has been making a big comeback in philately in the past decade.

[kawartha-ephemera]

Shoot! Never occured to me the thing had become collectible.

Out of an abundance of caution it was sent with a P this time.

Normally Ps are the way to go for sure ... have been trying to use up a denomination I'd probably have trouble finding another use for. Discount postage rookie here ...  learning on the job.

[teenytrinkets]

It's not really a debate... just some counter staff that are misinformed or poorly trained.

The letter that was returned to you was correct. The hundreds that weren't returned were incorrect, but overlooked. Just like the loads of oversize lettermail that makes it though with only 2 "P" stamps, or are 3-5 cm thick - or both.

Lettermail seems to be a grey area of sorts. You'll get some keeners that will go on a returning binge (I've had this happen to me for some of my puffy lettermail), and the rest just push it through.

But as ricarmic mentioned, if your stuff gets returned, do a quick peel and pop it back into the box. If at first you don't succeed, try try again...

[pjcdn2005]

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@teenytrinkets wrote:
It's not really a debate... just some counter staff that are misinformed or poorly trained.

The letter that was returned to you was correct. The hundreds that weren't returned were incorrect, but overlooked. Just like the loads of oversize lettermail that makes it though with only 2 "P" stamps, or are 3-5 cm thick - or both.

Lettermail seems to be a grey area of sorts. You'll get some keeners that will go on a returning binge (I've had this happen to me for some of my puffy lettermail), and the rest just push it through.

But as ricarmic mentioned, if your stuff gets returned, do a quick peel and pop it back into the box. If at first you don't succeed, try try again...

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Sorry but the counter person was correct.  I guess it is still a debate. 🙂

As ricarmic points out, a regular letter is .92.  The only time is is $1.07 is when you go to the post office and ask them for a stamp for that one envelope.

[widgetc]

0.76 + 0.10 + 0.06 = 0.92 face value.  is correct. The $1.07 is a single stamp price of $1.00 plus tax of $0.07 .  The current rate is $0.92 plus any tax due.  The face postage used had any taxes due at the time of sale already paid so $0.92 face is correct.

Counter staff are often ill informed. Once a a store postal outlet clerk  told a friend that old stamps were expired!

[reallynicestamps]

The Dominion of Canada has never "demonetized" any stamps. In fact, we can use Newfoundland stamps at face value because that canny Newfie Joey Smallwood made one of the articles of Confederation that Newfoundland stamps and currency would be accepted at face when the bankrupt colony graciously allowed itself to become Canada's 10th province.

[mmmcross]

Wow, this made me realize I too have been absent mindedly treating them as $1.07 and not $0.92, even though I understood the original distinction. Luckily none have come back!

Some of you must also have encountered the Canadian "A" stamps from the early 1980s? I had trouble finding info about them for a while, but I guess they were temporary and for domestic use only while rates were being changed. I tried using a couple of them within Canada and they weren't returned to me. I could see them being processed as P stamps, but I wouldn't take the risk if I was sending anything internationally. I don't know a lot about postal history but I'm curious if they would be considered collectible if they did actually make it somewhere international.

https://canadianstampnews.com/1981-a-stamp-used-on-mail-this-april/

[space_pirate]

Per Canada Post's website:

Up to 30g - $1.07 for a single stamp or $0.92/stamp in a booklet

https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/en/personal/sending/letters-mail/postage-rates.page

Same info here and they also mention a "roll of stamps", which is 100 pieces: https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/en/business/postal-services/stamps-meters.page

From this I would say that the $0.92 is a volume discount. This is what I've paid since 2020 for a strip of 10 stamps (aka booklet). Same price if you purchase a roll of 100 pieces. However, Costco often sells them for less than $0.92 each if you buy a roll of 100. I believe that it's about $0.88 each at the moment. Whereas I've never seen such additional discounts at Canada Post.

That being said, all of these prices are "net", meaning that sales tax is not included. I always pay $9.20 + tax for a booklet/strip of 10 pieces. Even at a conveniency store or a pharmacy for example.

Technically speaking, the price of the service is $1.07 + tax at the moment. Or in other words, the face value of one stamp = $1.07. Even if you paid $0.92. I'll give you an example:

I recently mailed a letter to the USA which weighed less than 100g. The price is $3.19 + tax. Check here for verification:

https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/en/personal/sending/letters-mail/postage-rates.page

I placed 3 stamps on it. 3 x $1.07 = $3.21. Of course I'm not travelling all the way to the post office in order to save $0.02 cents. In fact it would cost me more to go there. The time alone isn't worth it. The letter arrived 2 weeks later without problems. And as long as you pay more they won't throw it back at you.

If we assume like many people that the face value is in fact $0.92, that would be $2.76 total for 3 stamps. $3.19 - $2.76 = $0.43. If I had been short $0.43, then the main post office would have certainly thrown it back at me indicating "insufficient postage".

I've done this several times over the past year using $1.07 as the base price for one stamp and I've never had a problem. Sometimes I pay 5, 10 or even 20 cents more in total, but big deal. It's still not worth going to the post office. This applies to mail sent within Canada, to the USA or elsewhere abroad.  If I had used $0.92 as the base price, then I would have been short each time.

[ricarmic · Accepted solution]

It isn't a volume discount.

92c is the cost for a first class letter, if you put the stamp on yourself. If you come without a stamp and want a postal employee to put one on for you, it will cost you $1.07.

If you buy a book of stamps (92C each) and put one of them on the letter right in front of the postmaster, it costs you only 92c (all of these are before tax).

The reason is simple, the post office is trying to disuade folks from having the ("expensive") postal employees put a single stamp on for you, taking up their time.

As with anything postal, if you ask 4 PMs the same question, you'll get 5 different answers, no different from the CSRs. Generally the experienced PMs know, but that isn't always guaranteed. Folks consistently knowing the rules has been a never ending problem.

Generally it is the PM's job at your location to ensure the correct postage is on the letter, the assumption that a "P" stamp is $1.07 is incorrect. The letters will usually get through, unless your PM catches it.  (I've got envelopes that made it through the system with no stamp at all, Xmas seals for a stamp etc etc). If your PM happens to believe a P stamp is worth $1.07, you'll usually be ok, until someone is filling in for them or in the odd case someone on the receiving end catches it.

[virgilanthony]

https://www.canadapost-postescanada.ca/cpc/en/support/kb/sending/general-information/what-are-perman...

P-stamp is the equivalent of a current domestic stamp, so as a current domestic stamp is $1.07, when buying a book of domestic stamps the price drops to 0.92 however it is the "value of the stamp" i.e 1.07 that counts to the postage and not the price paid.

[ricarmic]

I'm not going to reopen the discussion, but today a "P" stamp counts as 92c if you use it along with other stamps on a package.

[reallynicestamps]

The A stamps are worth 30c.

There is also a Forts booklet with no value printed at all, which is worth 34c.

[reallynicestamps]

Errrrr--- 43c.

There are also Christmas stamps with a star - value 38c

The Flag stamp are valued at 43c too.

The Picture Postage booklet stamps are worth 47c EACH

The Siver Maple Leaf is worth 49c

[ilikehockeyjerseys]

Since we're all sharing our postage facts, here is a PSA.

You can use 2 P-stamps for 1.94 postage, even know they are 10 cents short. Canada Post's rulebook allows for a 10 cent grace when using 2 P-stamps. 

[fh991586]

Please share with us where in the rulebook you found this information, because I seriously doubt it's ok.

P stamps are paid/worth 92c.  But you must put the equivalent of $1.07 in individual stamps if you don't use a P one for regular mail.  Same goes for higher rates: 2x P stamps = $1.84, because that's what you PAID for it.  It's not an equivalent to other service than the 30g lettermail...

[ricarmic]

@ilikehockeyjerseys just a note on that, to be able to get away with that consistently one would have to use the PO Box and not the counter, they're supposed to let them go on an intermittent basis but if one shows up with only $1.84 all the time they're supposed to intervene, or at least that's what my PMs have advised.

@dinomitesales might have some insights on it as well, I know I couldn't do it all the time if I desired at my PO at least.

[dinomitesales]

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@fh991586 wrote:

Please share with us where in the rulebook you found this information, because I seriously doubt it's ok.

P stamps are paid/worth 92c.  But you must put the equivalent of $1.07 in individual stamps if you don't use a P one for regular mail.  Same goes for higher rates: 2x P stamps = $1.84, because that's what you PAID for it.  It's not an equivalent to other service than the 30g lettermail...

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This discussion pops up every now and again. As others have said in this thread if you ask 5 postal employees/postmasters you'll probably get 5 different answers.

Domestic Lettermail rate (under 30 g) is currently 92 cents. You can either put a 'P' stamp on (which costs you 92 cents and is worth 92 cents), or you can apply lower-value stamps that equal at least 92 cents. Here is the relevant page from the Canada Post Retail Operations Manual (highlighting is mine):

As @ilikehockeyjerseys mentioned Canada Post DOES allow 2 'P' stamps to equal the current rate for domestic Oversized Lettermail under 100 g (currently $1.94). This is because Canada Post allows up to 10 cents of shortpaid postage before returning a letter to sender, and two 'P' stamps = $1.84 which is exactly 10 cents less than an Oversized Lettermail stamp. Now, obviously they don't advertise this fact or people would abuse it. Here is the relevant page from Canada Post's Retail Operations Manual (highlighting is mine):

[dinomitesales]

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@virgilanthony wrote:

https://www.canadapost-postescanada.ca/cpc/en/support/kb/sending/general-information/what-are-perman...

P-stamp is the equivalent of a current domestic stamp, so as a current domestic stamp is $1.07, when buying a book of domestic stamps the price drops to 0.92 however it is the "value of the stamp" i.e 1.07 that counts to the postage and not the price paid.

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The term "current domestic stamp" has no formal definition and could refer to many things.

There is a "domestic postage rate" for standard letters under 30 g. That rate is 92 cents if purchased in books/coils/panes. That is the value of a Permanent stamp. See Canada Post's Consumer Price Guide (Page 12, Bottom).

The domestic postage rate is also $1.07, but that is only applicable when you're buying a single stamp at the post office counter (i.e. the 'single stamp rate'). You are given a single stamp with $1.07 printed on it, and it is worth $1.07. These $1.07 stamps are not meant to be sold in quantity (hence the reason they can't be purchased on the Canada Post website), but if you were to buy a bunch of them at a post office you're free to use them as any other stamp - they're worth $1.07. You're basically paying a fifteen cent surcharge if you only want one stamp - consider it either (a) a fee for the time/labour involved in selling/applying a single stamp; or (b) a way to try and entice you to buy a book of stamps instead of just one.