CP 30g Lettermail Rate, What is it 1.07 or 0.92? The "P" Debate That Never Ends.

[kawartha-ephemera]

My question to other discount postage users, what rate are you using on Domestic 30g lettermail and what has been your experience regarding returned mail?

Last Fall, I presented a piece of regular Domestic 30g Lettermail to our local Postmaster and asked her, do I have enough on there? I wanted her opinion of the discount postage I had applied before dropping the ordinary paper envelope in the mail box.  I had applied one each of 0.76 + 0.10 + 0.06 = 0.92 face value. 

She quickly counted up the values, weighed the envelope and said sure, that's fine. Just to be sure I asked her if there were any concerns at all in continuing the practice on a regular basis. Her answer ... Nope, that's perfectly acceptable.

Since that time I have posted several hundred without trouble, until now. Picked up my mail one day this week to discover a piece had been returend exactly one week after it had been posted. 

Return To Sender - Insufficient Postage - Amount Due 15 cents

The label included this hand written explanation: "Must display $1.07 or 1 "P" stamp. Stamp rate $1.07" 

[flipistics]

@dinomitesales  So they would accept the 2 'P' stamps if you drop it in the box outside the post office, but not if you hand it in at the counter? Or do they consider "in the mailstream" to be once it makes it past your home post office?

Thank you for posting that. Really helpful.  I don't suppose you've heard anything about a small parcel rate? That's what we really need!

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@dinomitesales wrote:

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@fh991586 wrote:

Please share with us where in the rulebook you found this information, because I seriously doubt it's ok.

P stamps are paid/worth 92c.  But you must put the equivalent of $1.07 in individual stamps if you don't use a P one for regular mail.  Same goes for higher rates: 2x P stamps = $1.84, because that's what you PAID for it.  It's not an equivalent to other service than the 30g lettermail...

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This discussion pops up every now and again. As others have said in this thread if you ask 5 postal employees/postmasters you'll probably get 5 different answers.

Domestic Lettermail rate (under 30 g) is currently 92 cents. You can either put a 'P' stamp on (which costs you 92 cents and is worth 92 cents), or you can apply lower-value stamps that equal at least 92 cents. Here is the relevant page from the Canada Post Retail Operations Manual (highlighting is mine):

As @ilikehockeyjerseys mentioned Canada Post DOES allow 2 'P' stamps to equal the current rate for domestic Oversized Lettermail under 100 g (currently $1.94). This is because Canada Post allows up to 10 cents of shortpaid postage before returning a letter to sender, and two 'P' stamps = $1.84 which is exactly 10 cents less than an Oversized Lettermail stamp. Now, obviously they don't advertise this fact or people would abuse it. Here is the relevant page from Canada Post's Retail Operations Manual (highlighting is mine):

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@dinomitesales 

In recently speaking to someone at local SD postal outlet I tried to explain POD to them. They weren't familiar with it. After some prodding they realized that there was a button on their screen for accessing this. Once they realized it they said their instructions were only able create postage for current shipments.  Not in advance(future - their explanation it had to do with being accountable for those future packages and any date discrepancy). Same answer at a second SD.

Does make the process more challenging when postal outlets "seem" to not be carrying a complete assortment of postage stamp denominations. Including 3.19, 4.44, 5.09 and 5.47 for Canadian oversized letters and the assorted interpretations regarding "P" stamps for sellers who mail these times of items frequently. My most recent adventure at a SD was a 25 minute wait with 6 customers in front of me and 4 behind me before I got to the till. This will only get worse as we get closer to the holiday season.

-Lotz

[ilikehockeyjerseys]

The spirit of the rule was explained differently to me.

I used to place small 10 cents worth of denomination stamps to make up the 10 cent difference. It was explained that it wasn't required because Canada Post allows 2 P stamps in lieu of the 1.94 cents due to the 10 cent rule. 

While I trust you guys in the stamp world know the nature of the rules better than I do, my post wasn't meant to advocate pulling a fast one on your local PO. My understanding of the rule was always that it was in place to make it possible to use P-stamps for oversized. I have never had a Post Office employee request additional postage. 

[reallynicestamps]

But you must put the equivalent of $1.07 in individual stamps if you don't use a P one for regular mail.

NO

The 15c difference is a service charge and tax when the customer does not buy a booklet of stamps.

And you  can put (for example) two 46c stamps on your letter to make up the rate, which is 92c.

You can use a P stamp as 92c at any time.

What the customer paid for the stamps is not relevant to the rate.

So you can use three of those A stamps above plus a 2 cent with an image of George VI if you like.

And, just to complicate matters, you can use 92 cents worth of Newfoundland stamps instead, because that wily old Newfie, Joey Smallwood, made it part of deal that Canada would accept the bankrupt colony's stamps (and I think currency) at face value when they deigned to join Confederation in 1949.

[ricarmic]

Well most of us know that one SHOULD be able to put 92c worth of other rate stamps on a letter but not everyone in the PO system knows that and we've heard here several times from several folks that their 92c worth of stamps got returned as insufficient.

Whether we're right or not doesn't matter, what matters (to me at least) is the time that would be lost for the return trip and to send out again, would most likely cause a late shipment.

I'm "lucky" because as a favour to the stamp collectors I serve, I always use a modern "P" stamp anyway so fortunately I don't have to worry about the "92c" of stamps disbelievers in the postal system.

@ilikehockeyjerseys Just a note, my post was meant to put forward what my PMs relayed to me, if it is allowed by one's local PO it's not going to be returned! (This reminds me of a funny story here, one of my PMs didn't believe in the fuel surcharge in the early days (can you imagine that now!!!) when that PM left, the subsequent one of course had us all adding the fuel surcharge. One of my/our peers drove quite a ways to another rural PO that also didn't believe in the fuel surcharge!!!)

[dinomitesales]

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@flipistics wrote:

@dinomitesales  So they would accept the 2 'P' stamps if you drop it in the box outside the post office, but not if you hand it in at the counter? Or do they consider "in the mailstream" to be once it makes it past your home post office?

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I've probably mailed thousands of domestic Oversized Lettermail items under 100 g with just two 'P' stamps and have never had one returned. In all cases I've just dropped them into a mailbox (or manually placed them in the outgoing mail if it's on a day when I'm working at the post office). Have never had an issue. That being said, I would imagine that the vast majority of postal clerks are not familiar with this rule and would ask you to put another 10 cents on it (good luck trying to explain to them why it isn't necessary). Just drop it in the mailbox and avoid the clerks altogether.

I don't know if there's a formal definition for "in the mailstream", I just assumed it meant Canada Post has been given possession of the item. Either by handing it to someone at a retail counter or dropping it in a street letter box.

As for a domestic small parcel rate, I know they were testing a low(er)-cost tracked shipping option for small domestic items a couple of years ago. There were a few large-volume customers that were running trials on it. Unfortunately, there hasn't been any updates on that being rolled out nationally (and to be honest, I don't even know if they're still trialling it or if they've scrapped it all together).

[dinomitesales]

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@dinomitesales 

In recently speaking to someone at local SD postal outlet I tried to explain POD to them. They weren't familiar with it. After some prodding they realized that there was a button on their screen for accessing this. Once they realized it they said their instructions were only able create postage for current shipments.  Not in advance(future - their explanation it had to do with being accountable for those future packages and any date discrepancy). Same answer at a second SD.

Does make the process more challenging when postal outlets "seem" to not be carrying a complete assortment of postage stamp denominations. Including 3.19, 4.44, 5.09 and 5.47 for Canadian oversized letters and the assorted interpretations regarding "P" stamps for sellers who mail these times of items frequently. My most recent adventure at a SD was a 25 minute wait with 6 customers in front of me and 4 behind me before I got to the till. This will only get worse as we get closer to the holiday season.

-Lotz

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Well, I mean if they didn't even know the "Print on Demand" button existed I would be hard-pressed to listen to them regarding any supposed 'rules' on it's usage lol. The "Print on Demand" functionality was added in with the last major RPOS update; I'm pretty sure that one of the use cases they specified upon it's release was allowing people to print postage to take home with them and use at a later date. I'll try and find the Infomessage on my next shift and take a picture of it.

The date printed on a meter label 'stamp' is completely irrelevant. There's nothing to account for because they're basically just giving you a stamp. All that matters is that the meter label is valid or not (i.e. whether or not it's been cancelled, just like a regular stamp). Meter label postage doesn't magically stop working after a certain period of time.

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@dinomitesales wrote:

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@dinomitesales 

In recently speaking to someone at local SD postal outlet I tried to explain POD to them. They weren't familiar with it. After some prodding they realized that there was a button on their screen for accessing this. Once they realized it they said their instructions were only able create postage for current shipments.  Not in advance(future - their explanation it had to do with being accountable for those future packages and any date discrepancy). Same answer at a second SD.

Does make the process more challenging when postal outlets "seem" to not be carrying a complete assortment of postage stamp denominations. Including 3.19, 4.44, 5.09 and 5.47 for Canadian oversized letters and the assorted interpretations regarding "P" stamps for sellers who mail these times of items frequently. My most recent adventure at a SD was a 25 minute wait with 6 customers in front of me and 4 behind me before I got to the till. This will only get worse as we get closer to the holiday season.

-Lotz

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Well, I mean if they didn't even know the "Print on Demand" button existed I would be hard-pressed to listen to them regarding any supposed 'rules' on it's usage lol. The "Print on Demand" functionality was added in with the last major RPOS update; I'm pretty sure that one of the use cases they specified upon it's release was allowing people to print postage to take home with them and use at a later date. I'll try and find the Infomessage on my next shift and take a picture of it.

The date printed on a meter label 'stamp' is completely irrelevant. There's nothing to account for because they're basically just giving you a stamp. All that matters is that the meter label is valid or not (i.e. whether or not it's been cancelled, just like a regular stamp). Meter label postage doesn't magically stop working after a certain period of time.

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Re: Stop working.

Thanks for the clarification. That was my concern. I tried not get too far ahead but have a few higher amounts from last year or year before. A few times when I used I just got them to date stamp when I drop off. I don't like to red bin stuff due to fears of someone dropping either a coke or a brick in and things getting damaged. But like c'mon. 3.19 and 4.44. Sheesh!!!

-Lotz

[kh-leslie]

Hi everyone,

Due to the age of this thread, it has been closed to further replies. Please feel free to start a new thread if you wish to continue to discuss this topic.

Thank you for understanding.