Help: Buyer receives VAT? notice. Will not receive parcel until paid?

[phoenixhobbies]

Hi their, I attempted googling/eBay forum serching for my answer, I need your help. 

A buyer in Denmark has spent $61.12 CAD in pokemon cards from me, that I had shipped through, "create a parcel label" through eBay. They also have a "VAT Paid" Code on their shipping address, does that do anything?

They informed me that they have recived a notice from their post service stating that they have their parcel from me. The Denmark post office will not release and send to the buyer until the buyer has paid the, what I am guessing is, "VAT" fees of $36.83CAD. They included a photo of the notice in a eBay message for proof and even translated it for me. 

The buyer also stated it is too expensive for them to pay and that they would rather send the package back to me instead of spending more money to recive the parcel. Is their anything I can do instead of just giving a return shipping label and giving a full refund? Should I just throw money at the problem and refund half to help make up for the VAT fee to make it go away?  Is it their resposponsability to know about and deal with VAT or mine as well?

Also, anyone finding selling/shipping to Eroupe a nightmare, some sort of conflict ends up happening? Also, is that most likley the delay in shipping times from Canada to Eroupe, is that why the parcel gets delayed for VAT fees?

Thank you for your time and help.

[hlmacdon · Accepted solution]

VAT Paid means they already paid VAT, there should also be an IOSS number for ebay listed. Tell them to go to their post office with a copy of their ebay invoice/order information showing VAT has already been paid via the IOSS system and see if they will release the shipment. There will be some issues with shipments until every postal operator updates their customs forms to include the IOSS paid information so it is detected when scanned and not held for VAT payment. 

[femmefan1946]

Most Danes speak fairly fluent English but:

gå til deres posthus med en kopi af deres ebay-faktura / ordreoplysninger, 
der viser moms er allerede betalt via IOSS-systemet, 
og se om de frigiver forsendelsen. Der vil være nogle problemer med forsendelser, 
indtil hver postoperatør opdaterer deres toldformularer, så de inkluderer de IOSS-betalte oplysninger, 
så de opdages, når de scannes og ikke tilbageholdes til momsbetaling.

Google Translate

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@phoenixhobbies wrote:

Hi their, I attempted googling/eBay forum serching for my answer, I need your help. 

A buyer in Denmark has spent $61.12 CAD in pokemon cards from me, that I had shipped through, "create a parcel label" through eBay. They also have a "VAT Paid" Code on their shipping address, does that do anything?

They informed me that they have recived a notice from their post service stating that they have their parcel from me. The Denmark post office will not release and send to the buyer until the buyer has paid the, what I am guessing is, "VAT" fees of $36.83CAD. They included a photo of the notice in a eBay message for proof and even translated it for me. 

The buyer also stated it is too expensive for them to pay and that they would rather send the package back to me instead of spending more money to recive the parcel. Is their anything I can do instead of just giving a return shipping label and giving a full refund? Should I just throw money at the problem and refund half to help make up for the VAT fee to make it go away?  Is it their resposponsability to know about and deal with VAT or mine as well?

Also, anyone finding selling/shipping to Eroupe a nightmare, some sort of conflict ends up happening? Also, is that most likley the delay in shipping times from Canada to Eroupe, is that why the parcel gets delayed for VAT fees?

Thank you for your time and help.

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From the Danish Postal Service website regarding VAT collection: For reference purposes.

Similar information available on the UK's Royal Mail website.

Custom information in regards to Brexit | PostNord Pay special attention to:

• It is obligatory to send information on the recipient’s SMS number and e-mail address. The contact information is used by DPD UK to inform the recipient about VAT collection. Parcels that do not have a mobile number and/or e-mail address will be returned to sender. 
• It is important that you send correct customs documents and electronic customs data to us.
• You must remember to put a trade invoice on parcels to UK. Unfortunately, we receive many parcels without invoices and/or necessary information. Therefore, we have to return parcels without an invoice to sender.
• If the customs data is incorrect or incomplete, PostNord can help fill in the data for a fee. Alternatively, the shipments are returned to sender.
• Expect delays to/from the UK after Brexit. This is due to new processes both in Denmark and UK. Furthermore, decreasing parcel volumes to UK mean we have fewer departures per week.
• There are no changes for shipments containing documents.
• For more information on the preparations, see www.gov.uk/brexit.

-Lotz

[phoenixhobbies]

Update: The buyer went to their post office to show the invoice papers with the Paid VAT code and the post office did not accept it and stated their are still fees to pay. So the buyer agreed for the post office to return to sender.

The buyer also stated that their friends have had the same issues as well and it’s a common problem and is difficult to do online shopping internationally.

Maybe the buyer did not understand and know how to deal with it properly and just gave up?
Maybe the post office is not regulating or correctly dealing with VAT?
Maybe their are heavy fees just in Denmark to deter buying imported goods?

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@phoenixhobbies wrote:
Update: The buyer went to their post office to show the invoice papers with the Paid VAT code and the post office did not accept it and stated their are still fees to pay. So the buyer agreed for the post office to return to sender.

The buyer also stated that their friends have had the same issues as well and it’s a common problem and is difficult to do online shopping internationally.

Maybe the buyer did not understand and know how to deal with it properly and just gave up?
Maybe the post office is not regulating or correctly dealing with VAT?
Maybe their are heavy fees just in Denmark to deter buying imported goods?

---

tyler@ebay 

In checking previously with eBay CS UK they suggested marking the customs paper work with the VAT info but the buyer could (potentially) be required to show proof of VAT prepayment.  (Important when including a packing slip, attached to the customs documents, this is shown clearly for backup.)

This is why an editable (more detailed) Customs form is a requirement especially going forward with VAT being involved. There are even  additional boxes to be filled in like dispose/return to sender if undelivered or IRS numbers to the USA for high value orders.  Those boxes are already built into Shippo/Snapship.  Some countries even need customs documents to be translated to specific languages. This is basically left up to shipper.

See post 4  for more fun official Danish facts. Not to be confused with fun facts about danishes!!  🙂

-Lotz

[hlmacdon]

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@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:

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This is why an editable (more detailed) Customs form is a requirement especially going forward with VAT being involved. 

-Lotz

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Not that simple for the VAT issue unfortunately. From looking at the implementation from other international postal providers, Canada Post needs to update their label printing to be compliant with the EU IOSS system. There are two components to this.  One is ensuring that any marketplace-linked transactions with any of their partners leveraging their shipping API need to have the IOSS logo printed on the customs form, where the shipment information supplies an IOSS number. The second being having that IOSS number correctly coded so it passes as the correct data field as part of the electronic customs information exchanged between operators. Having a user editable field won't address that.

That second requirement of the electronic exchange of customs information including the IOSS number seems to be what is causing the majority of problems. Packages are either be incorrectly held pending VAT payment or they are simply being refused by the foreign postal operator because the IOSS number isn't being exchanged in the electronic customs information at all or correctly.

Each country likely has their own processes or is trying to figure out a process to deal with these potential double taxation shipments. Countries for example may have processes in place to deal with the refund of taxies or duties where an item is returned to another country. That typically will not cover any brokerage or handling charges by the carrier since that effectively is charged by a third party. Even if the buyer is already aware of potential refund mechanisms, they may end up out of pocket. 

For now it is a YMMV situation as different countries are at different stages of implementation and some operators just aren't ready for it. Some countries are apparently asking for both phone and email information to be included as well, which could pose yet another problem given ebay's reluctance to share buyer emails. 

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@hlmacdon wrote:

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@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:

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This is why an editable (more detailed) Customs form is a requirement especially going forward with VAT being involved. 

-Lotz

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Not that simple for the VAT issue unfortunately. From looking at the implementation from other international postal providers, Canada Post needs to update their label printing to be compliant with the EU IOSS system. There are two components to this.  One is ensuring that any marketplace-linked transactions with any of their partners leveraging their shipping API need to have the IOSS logo printed on the customs form, where the shipment information supplies an IOSS number. The second being having that IOSS number correctly coded so it passes as the correct data field as part of the electronic customs information exchanged between operators. Having a user editable field won't address that.

That second requirement of the electronic exchange of customs information including the IOSS number seems to be what is causing the majority of problems. Packages are either be incorrectly held pending VAT payment or they are simply being refused by the foreign postal operator because the IOSS number isn't being exchanged in the electronic customs information at all or correctly.

Each country likely has their own processes or is trying to figure out a process to deal with these potential double taxation shipments. Countries for example may have processes in place to deal with the refund of taxies or duties where an item is returned to another country. That typically will not cover any brokerage or handling charges by the carrier since that effectively is charged by a third party. Even if the buyer is already aware of potential refund mechanisms, they may end up out of pocket. 

For now it is a YMMV situation as different countries are at different stages of implementation and some operators just aren't ready for it. Some countries are apparently asking for both phone and email information to be included as well, which could pose yet another problem given ebay's reluctance to share buyer emails. 

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@phoenixhobbies 

The VAT option is available on the Shippo optional customs form. If customs can scan the code on the label they should be able to view all inputted fields. EIN or VAT are a toggle. There is also a note area where the amount collected by eBay can be added. Because they switched to requiring actual customs docs vs hand written CN022 forms beginning of this year writing that info on the form or package is just back tracking so something I wouldn't recommend.

I've been adding the VAT info (that posts to the address field) from the get go on shipments to Australia. Recently to the UK/France/Sweden/Denmark/NZ and had no customers to date with buyers having to repay VAT again. Maybe I've been lucky or maybe it's because I've gone the extra mile to fill in the blanks. I'm unsure if the OP shipped their parcel using letter or parcel service. If it was sent as a letter with the info only visible with the address label that could have caused the issue with Danish customs. That's only speculation.

There are a few if's in the first paragraph. Requiring the customers to prove that VAT was collected automagically by eBay before for it left the country was a bit counter intuitive. Everything needed to be in place for this to work properly going forward. And avoid the possibilty of shipments being returned at the SELLERS expense because someone forgot to dot i's and cross t's.

-Lotz

PS. I've been using the Shippo system for almost 4 years. They've been able to adjust as required or advise when there would be delays in implementation. I have 4 very reliable contacts with Shippo that are very proactive to any concerns especially when it comes to a Canadian perspective. Shippo is not perfect but definitely more cooperative. I passed the information on to ebay regarding "real" email addiesses/ph #.s as soon as I noticed including the fact that it was a requirement for Intl postal services. If you ship by courier those are mandatory fields. Your driver will check to see if they've been filled in before leaving your building.

[hlmacdon]

That's not how it works in practice. You have to standardize the format of the EDI data interchanged between postal operators, then that flows down to partners that use their sytems. It's not as simple as one shipping partner saying here's all the data we have or here is our own implementation. Shippo will have to wait for Canada Post to implement on their API before that data passes electronically, which they have yet to do (last update was "in the near future" as of a week ago). USPS is in the same boat, most of the shipping providers have supported a VAT field since the beginning of July but USPS is not ready on their side and isn't sending that data electronically and everything is effectively still being sent as DDU/DAP. 

You also definitely want to include all of the eletronic customs information when buying an online shipping label regardless of what physical paperwork you include.

[phoenixhobbies]

Update:

Forgot to update a few weeks ago. I received the returned parcel. I sent it back, this time in a letter envelope with $12 CAD amount of letter mail postage stickers for the appropriate thickness.

Buyer received it within a week and a half with no VAT fees, no issues. I also noticed when I received it back, no VAT code on the receivers address.

I believe that was the main issue in eBays automated print shipping label part not printing the label with the automated VAT code and me not know about it.

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@hlmacdon wrote:

That's not how it works in practice. You have to standardize the format of the EDI data interchanged between postal operators, then that flows down to partners that use their sytems. It's not as simple as one shipping partner saying here's all the data we have or here is our own implementation. Shippo will have to wait for Canada Post to implement on their API before that data passes electronically, which they have yet to do (last update was "in the near future" as of a week ago). USPS is in the same boat, most of the shipping providers have supported a VAT field since the beginning of July but USPS is not ready on their side and isn't sending that data electronically and everything is effectively still being sent as DDU/DAP. 

You also definitely want to include all of the eletronic customs information when buying an online shipping label regardless of what physical paperwork you include.

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It would be nice to know if this is on everyone involved radar consider the most recent announcement was regarding VAT  was end July and there has been nothing since? It would have been so much easier leaving VAT to be collected by customs where applicable vs eBay being involved (poorly).

-Lotz

[reallynicestamps]

You did the right thing, but it should be noted that if a shipment is Undeliverable - and this seems to be that problem- the seller is not required to refund the buyer.

It's up to the buyer to provide enough correct information to make delivery possible, including paying any import fees his countrycharges, whether he thinks they are appropriate or not.

https://www.ebay.ca/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy?...

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@reallynicestamps wrote:

You did the right thing, but it should be noted that if a shipment is Undeliverable - and this seems to be that problem- the seller is not required to refund the buyer.

It's up to the buyer to provide enough correct information to make delivery possible, including paying any import fees his countrycharges, whether he thinks they are appropriate or not.

https://www.ebay.ca/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy?...

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@phoenixhobbies 

In theory what is supposed to happen is the customer should bring their receipt with VAT paid as proof to customs it had been collected. The label on the box would be a 2nd proof match. This would at minimum avoid a second charge for tax.

The other factor in play is if the parcel was marked for either return or destroy if undeliverable. These are available options when using CP or Shippo. Don't believe those are options with eBay Labels. If the country in question chooses/attempts return to sender the sender would be on the hook for return postage when item arrived back in Canada. Technically the item was never claimed or delivered. Only processed.  Leaving the last question, does seller want their goods back? Only they can decide if its worth the expense.

[fh991586]

It looks like this VAT thing makes shipping to Europe a lot of hassle!  Losing time to try to follow the rules, and then having to deal with the problems at the destination oversea...  They are going to regret it, because it's a headache to deal with that from our end!  There'll be less business shipping to Europe, so prices will go up for them.  This is all counter productive for everyone!

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@fh991586 wrote:

It looks like this VAT thing makes shipping to Europe a lot of hassle!  Losing time to try to follow the rules, and then having to deal with the problems at the destination oversea...  They are going to regret it, because it's a headache to deal with that from our end!  There'll be less business shipping to Europe, so prices will go up for them.  This is all counter productive for everyone!

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VAT applied or not applied at time of delivery. No other middle folks involved. Easer peasy. Plus correct contact information provided by all parties included by ebay. Actual Email addies + contact number. Cell or landline.

Things routinely get messed up with GSP. This is no different.

-Lotz

[intimewithmusic]

All this makes my head hurt.

For Europe orders would it be OK to take packaged items to the post office and and let them print the label? 

[marnotom!]

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@intimewithmusic wrote:

For Europe orders would it be OK to take packaged items to the post office and and let them print the label? 

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Tough to say.  This thread from July suggests that the problem is with Canada Post, so it would depend on whether it's been fixed or if the interface counter clerks uses allows them to input that information somehow, somewhere.

https://community.ebay.ca/t5/Seller-Central/Help-With-Denmark-Vat-Tax-Code-Ebay-Canada-Post-Warning-...

[dinomitesales]

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@marnotom! wrote:

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@intimewithmusic wrote:

For Europe orders would it be OK to take packaged items to the post office and and let them print the label? 

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Tough to say.  This thread from July suggests that the problem is with Canada Post, so it would depend on whether it's been fixed or if the interface counter clerks uses allows them to input that information somehow, somewhere.

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It hasn't been fixed. There's nowhere for us to input the info. Anyone that inquires about it I just encourage them to write it on the exterior of the package near the address.

Also I can guarantee that 95% of retail postal clerks will have no idea what you're talking about when you mention a VAT number. This isn't even a topic of conversation that has been brought up with Canada Post retail locations in terms of it being a deficit in their system. The only reason I know about it is because I'm involved in the ecommerce world.

[clemowbooks]

And my local Post Office toldme today that they expect to have new computers (hardware? software?) "next week".

So ...

[dinomitesales]

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@clemowbooks wrote:

And my local Post Office toldme today that they expect to have new computers (hardware? software?) "next week".

So ...

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Canada Post is currently in the (long and slow) process of upgrading all their hardware/software systems. It's been ongoing for about 10 months now, and will continue into next year. The location I work at (a busy retail outlet in Winnipeg) was told 4 months ago that we'd be getting our upgrade in August. As of right now, our upgrade date has been updataed to "Unknown" (which probably means next year, after the holiday rush). I think they've been running into a lot of issues with the new system, which is to be expected; this is a MAJOR upgrade to their entire RPS system, which has been the same for over a decade now.

That being said, the new software can't do anything the old software can't. So even after a location gets their computer upgrade they still won't be able to add a VAT number to the customs details. That's still something that needs to be added to be added to Canada Post's software as a whole.