Seller is NOT protected. See this loophole!

[fashionsync]

Hey guys,

Just want to dicussion with you as seller in terms of protection policy for faulty return case:

Here is an example:

As a seller, one sold a collector stamp which worth $5000 to a buyer on eBay paid via Paypal. The seller shipped the real stamp with tracking and signatures options to buyer's Paypal confirmed address which is protected for chargeback. But after the buyer received the stamp, he filed a case with eBay and Paypal saying the item is not as described. Then he return the "item" according to the policy with tracking and signature option back to the seller. After seller gets the return package, it is just an empty dummy package with no item in it.

In this case:

1. Assuming the buyer is a fraud and return the empty envelop on purpose. How can eBay and Paypal protect the seller? I called eBay for this case. All 3 representives could not really have good answers for me. They said in this case, seller need to open a police report first. The problem is, no policy officer would stay with the seller to open the return package at first place. When seller found it is empty, then go to policy, no policy can prove if the package is really empty or not upon recieving. So how could eBay and Paypal protect seller in this tricky case? In addition, what if this is a case related to international transaction? How can seller to open a police report against someone in another country, or go to another country to file a police report?

2. Assuming the seller is a fraud and remove the item from the package then claim it is an empty return package. In this case, how eBay know who is telling the truth?

Nobody can judge just based on the tracking info and signature. Postoffice will not allow you to open the pkg to check before signing it.

Any better idea in these cases?

[marnotom!]

Did you try appealing the case or was it too late to do so?

[fashionsync]

Thanks. This is not a real case for me. I heard sellers had similar case. I just wonder in such tricky situation, how could eBay help? To me, it seems there is no way to protect seller in this situation.

[inuk_the_polar_bear]

So, this is a "what if"? Bring us a what if when you get a what if. You do not have a $5K stamp for sale, ya have not sold one, nothing has happened.

Theft is theft. It happens everywhere, all the time. There is no protection anywhere to prevent, solve, or mitigate it.

By selling, the seller has agreed to the miniscule amount of risk involved with on-line sales. By selling, the seller has agreed to the adage "Don't sell anything you cannot afford to lose".

Put ten of us in a room for an hour and we could come up with a hundred what if scenarios.

[pierrelebel]

"Assuming the buyer..."

"Assuming the seller..."

A lot of assumptions, none of them based in facts.  We all know the meaning of "assume", don't we?

As a stamp dealer who has actually sold millions of dollars worth of stamps over the years, including stamps worth $5,000+, I know better than to base my business decisions of "assumptions".

Life is too short to live with paranoia.  We do see a lot of that on eBay, mostly from individuals with little real life mail order business experience, playing "business" on eBay.

[pierrelebel]

I should add that the comment by inuk_the_polar_bear is very valid.

In business - any business - there are risks.  Some you see, some you do not.

If you cannot afford losses or if the risks involved prevent you from sleeping at night, it would be best to find another way to earn a living. Selling by mail (direct marketing) is not for everyone.

[lady.stark]

This situation happened to someone on the French discussion board of the Canadian eBay site. When he received his "item" back, something was off, because the enveloppe was very lightweight. So he filmed himself opening the enveloppe and he won the appeal with his video. If you fear the same thing might happen to you, this is a way to protect yourself.

[rose-dee]

To the OP: Are you presenting this hypothetical situation because you were planning to list a very expensive stamp?  I see you have some postage stamps listed already. 

If you are really worried about this sort of fraud, especially in a sale to another country, I would suggest instead that you take the item personally to a dealer in a large city and see what you can get for it.  Or take it to a collectors' show, etc. -- I don't sell postage stamps, but I'm sure there are many other ways to sell them, especially rare and expensive ones, besides listing them on eBay. You would get the cash in your hand, although possibly less than you might get on eBay, but at no risk. 

I think such losses are far more rare than you imagine in any event.  However, if you're building up a business on eBay, it's probably not wise to start with $5,000 items anyway, until you're able to absorb such a loss without your business (or your health) falling apart if it should in fact happen. 

[kashka]

Wow..what a friendly bunch here..lol..OP was just asking..I would go ask on Seller Central on .com,perhaps you will find some who are willing to offer some opinions on your inquiry and maybe get a discussion going.:)

[fashionsync]

Thanks guys for the reply and discussion. All points are good and reasonable.

Because I think all these assumptions are very valid and could happen any time...

What if I buy something from you guys and return it as "item not as decribed", but ship a rock to you with tracking? Are you going to just admit and take the loss as you said? Really?

[inuk_the_polar_bear]

Fashion, if the fear of risk is too much for you, eBay selling is not for you. Yes, I have been been stolen from. Big deal. It is busines and has  no effect on my life. Theft, loss, breakage, etc is all built into my price. I can, and do, deal with it.

[Anonymous]

So you are out of the item and $5,000?  It is scary and hope we are not going to see a trend becoming a normal on eBay at any time.

[inuk_the_polar_bear]

OP is out nothing. The whole thing is made-up and has not happened.

It is a "what if".

[pierrelebel]

"So you are out of the item and $5,000?"

????

Did you read the original post? Where does it state the original poster lost $5,000?

[rose-dee]

---

@fashionsync wrote:

Thanks guys for the reply and discussion. All points are good and reasonable.

Because I think all these assumptions are very valid and could happen any time...

What if I buy something from you guys and return it as "item not as decribed", but ship a rock to you with tracking? Are you going to just admit and take the loss as you said? Really?

---

In the final analysis, you are the only one who can decide what level of loss you're comfortable with.  Not everyone is able to absorb a loss of thousands of dollars without serious worries.  Most sellers can probably withstand the occasional loss of a $10 to $100 dollar value, and some, like inuk, can apparently accept any loss without blinking.  

As others have said, you have to accept at least the possibility of the occasional loss as a fact of life when selling on eBay -- which doesn't mean you can't minimize potential loss by avoiding selling riskier items and using other strategies to minimize risk, such as deciding which countries you will and won't ship to.  

Much depends on the value of the individual item, its attractiveness or rarity, your overall sales volume, and whether you're in a high risk category to begin with.  

If that theoretical $5,000 stamp is going to make or break your year on eBay, you would probably be better off trying to sell it elsewhere as I mentioned earlier.  If it's just one of a hundred such items of similar value that you plan to sell, the potential loss will be less meaningful.  Although losses from fraud, theft, etc. etc. do happen, as I said, I think they are far less frequent than you might believe.  The temptation to defraud a seller may be higher where a very rare and very valuable article is concerned, but lots of such items are bought and sold on eBay all the time without problems.  You just have to balance your willingness to accept risk against your desire to get an easier sale (on eBay) at a potentially higher price.  

As an aside, I don't know whether it's available for such things as stamps (or even if it's still available at all), but there used to be escrow services on eBay for high value items.  Fees would no doubt apply.  Anyone know if these still exist? 

[pjcdn2005]

The title could just as well read "Buyer is not protected. See this loophole"

A seller could send an empty package to a buyer just as easily as a seller could do that to a buyer.

There is no 100% protection for either group with any type of online selling.There is also no 100% guarantee of protection from theft for brick and mortar retailers. There are risks in any business.

It is a good idea to know what the risks are and to try and miminize them but to expect all risk to be eliminated isn't reasonable.

[zee-chan-jpn-books]

Ahh, video taping while opening the package. That's a great idea =D 

Most people have cell phones / digital camera and can easily do that nowadays. It only takes a few minutes to record and open the packages and if there is no problem, we can simply delete the video. Not that I had any major problem with online buying or selling, but it's a good thing to do shall I decide to buy anything expensive.

PS. The only problem I ever get is Canadian customs opening my packages and not repackaging properly thus damaging the item (scratches and bent etc). 

[fashionsync]

No, buyer is pretty much always protected. They can always file a "item not as described", then return the item with tracking, to get the monery back. This makes sense since they paid and they deserve the get the item.

What my point is, there is loophole that people can use, especially for high value items. Stamp is just an example. It can be jewals, gold bullion or anything... high value item attracts more fraud.

Yes, one needs to be prepared for loss when selling online. The point of this post is to show that seller is not really bullet proof protected. Many real life cases similar to the example above results in seller's loss and eBay/PAYPAL could not help much. Just bad luck. Seller protection could not protect seller if one uses this loophole.

Then who actually protects the seller? It is the buyer. The honest buyer protects the seller actually.

[fashionsync]

If I am the judge, I would not even believe the video taping because it is easy to make up and fake the video too. Those magicians can hide a people in front of you etc. I can take the item, re-seal the already opened package, then reopen it and take video. It all depends on if it is worthy to do. Cost vs. Risk vs. Benefit.

[fiercecue1970]

The other problem is that seller protection is only valid for 45 days ... after 45 days if a buyer was to open a chargeback case through his creditcard company he can do so ... i had a case where after 70 days the buyer opened a chargeback case i had discarded my tracking info beause it had been so long . ... guess what , i had to pay back the buyer ... i was told by ebay after 45 days we are on our own pretty much ... unless you keep tracking info in your hands forever . At anytime a creditcard company can chargeback on a purchased item and ebay will not protect you . There is no seller protection ... we have to protect ourselves because EBAY sees sellers as theives and the poor buyers can take anything we own if they see a way and EBAY will always side with them if there is a loophole available