08-03-2017 11:00 AM
OK, I give up, and I'm so busy today I admit I don't have the time to look through all the recent shipping threads to find this information.
So guys, where did Light Packet labelling end up? Is there still anywhere a beleaguered eBay seller can get a Light Packet label printed online?
Last night I ended up using Shippo for a parcel I knew could have gone Light Packet, and paid the Small Packet rate. While I realize that Small Packet rate is discounted (for now), it was still about $0.20 more. Every penny counts these days, and they tend to add up to dollars.
Driving to the P.O. to stand in line and mess about with forms, etc. is not a good alternative for me at all. I'd rather lose the $0.20 and buy Small Packet.
I'm also not sure about risking lettermail to the U.S. for commercial parcels. It seems to me there's enough potential trouble inherent in shipping without adding more. If any seller has regularly shipped lettermail to the U.S. for some time and had no problems, I'd be interested to know. Once Shippo drops their Small Packet discount (and CP raises its rates again in January, 2018), it may be my only reasonable choice if I want to stay in business (I sell a lot of sewing patterns, mostly under $25).
08-03-2017 03:40 PM
08-03-2017 03:40 PM
@dutchman48 wrote:Task force info was to a great extent manipulated to serve a specific purpose.
Size and population may hold water for domestic mail, but should have no bearing on international outgoing mail.
International outgoing is also priced at a premium to account for shortfalls on inbound international.
08-03-2017 03:56 PM
@dutchman48 wrote:The big question is, what do other countries charge for that service compared to Canada.
In terms of international mail it really depends on the country. International mailing is a bit of a mess at the moment as different services (with very different pricing models) are being used for essentially the same services. You have some countries using the old registered mail for airmail packets, some countries negotiated services between specific countries like e-packet, and further you have countries that are rebranding Post Expres service under various guises liked tracked packet. In broad terms you have general airmail packets which are given zero priority, e-packet/tracked packet services which are given priority over general airmail packets, and then EMS/courier class which is given priority over everything. Registered is being phased out as many UPU members are refusing to provide tracking scans for registered now.
08-03-2017 04:30 PM
In other words, dump registered which is safe so they can charge more for other services which are less reliable. They don't even track registered from other countries now other than a delivery scan. I get many and don't even have to sign for them.
When do you think, if ever, will Canada Post level the playing field and stop subsidizing other countries at it's own countries expense.
If Canada Post dumps light packet which I am sure they will, and possibly even small packet, or raise rates as ridiculously as in the past, they will kill many small retail sellers that rely on the mail, and even more so if they enforce letter mail and oversize letter mail rules.
Eventually they will force even more to go through the US. It is absurd that an item can be mailed to one of the US mailing couriers and shipped from the US at a total cheaper cost than Canada post will mail it.
Is CP and the Union so stupid that they think price increases will give them more business if they keep jacking rates.
This country will become so uncompetetive in the international market that maybe the government should stick their nose into this whole postal situation instead of just doing what they want which in general is 0 to help the tax payers.
08-03-2017 04:39 PM - edited 08-03-2017 04:40 PM
Oh, and how long do you think the morons at Ebay Canada will keep their heads in the sand.
Every time postal rates go up, the Ebay FVF's go up, Paypal fees go up, and the taxes go up.
Eventually, sellers will leave and less will come in and postal income decreases, Ebay fees decrease, Paypal fees will decrease, and taxes will decrease.
That is such a wonderful business plan and so useful for the small sellers and Ebay..
Oh, I forgot, the small sellers are not wanted by Ebay.
08-03-2017 06:17 PM
@dutchman48 wrote:In other words, dump registered which is safe so they can charge more for other services which are less reliable. They don't even track registered from other countries now other than a delivery scan. I get many and don't even have to sign for them.
When do you think, if ever, will Canada Post level the playing field and stop subsidizing other countries at it's own countries expense.
If Canada Post dumps light packet which I am sure they will, and possibly even small packet, or raise rates as ridiculously as in the past, they will kill many small retail sellers that rely on the mail, and even more so if they enforce letter mail and oversize letter mail rules.
Eventually they will force even more to go through the US. It is absurd that an item can be mailed to one of the US mailing couriers and shipped from the US at a total cheaper cost than Canada post will mail it.
Is CP and the Union so stupid that they think price increases will give them more business if they keep jacking rates.
This country will become so uncompetetive in the international market that maybe the government should stick their nose into this whole postal situation instead of just doing what they want which in general is 0 to help the tax payers.
It is less about dumping one system then it is about getting everyone on board with the same systems, especially as it pertains to data interchange, and aligning terminal dues so that what are in effect parcels containing goods are charged appropriately. The concern is using a system intended for lettermail to deliver parcels, and the implications of the accompanying terminal dues. The terminal dues govern what level of reimbursement the postal service receives from the originating country so they are key. They are also trying to align data interchange for transmission of customs related data ahead of time to customs services as well as general exchanges of data on package status/details/etc.
With respect to lightweight packages, the UPU realizes that there needs to be a lower cost option for ecommerce. In terms of what they classify as "letter-post items" (versus parcel services) they are carving out a service intended for goods up to 2kg as part of this documents vs goods shakeup. What isn't clear is what form that will take, whether in pricing or included features. Where that sits alongside the Post Expres program remains to be seen as they are targeting the same market.
USPS offers us a hint of this as they offer a separate lower cost e-packet program available through postal wholesalers (some of the providers tout savings of 30-50%) that performs the same role, but it is largely inaccessible to the average consumer and you need to have a base level of volume for it to make sense as you need to mail your packages in bundles to a third party provider at one of several international terminals. Many of the countries participating in the Post Expres program are eligible destinations for e-packet (there are more e-packet eligible countries than Post Expres in fact) so that makes you wonder. My concern is that such a service is going to be made inaccessible for the average mailer that needs to send a smaller number of packages. I am interested to see how this new service and Post Expres are differentiated. For the moment select countries have very cheap e-packet rates to send into North America so it would be nice to see some rebalancing.
With respect to Canada Post, my gut feel is that light packet will be gone for 2018 or rebranded with new restrictions as a documents only service. It lies precisely in the 0-500 gram letter-post "packet" class that the UPU will no longer allow to be utilized for physical goods. Small packet will likely remain as is or be rebranded as part of this new 0-2kg service that is being carved out. There is no way they can eliminate it given how incredibly uncompetitive the pricing is for the Post Expres (tracked packet) implementation. It has been a couple of years since I was last involved in any talks regarding contracted Canada Post rates, but at the time they were desperate for as much international outbound volume they could get since they were losing a fortune on inbound. Even with Canada Post slashing the US parcel rates we found it substantially cheaper to have Fedex or UPS import parcel volumes in bulk into the US to one of their DC's then send out from there.
With the carriers I have spoken to, one of the major issues the union has is with the current pay structure which sees carriers that are paid by route working unpaid hours delivering parcels from abroad. One could make the argument that pay structure exists partially due to the fact that Canada Post is losing money processing these parcels and forced unpaid overtime is the only stop-gap solution. Part of the UPU realigning services is so that countries can't play the sending goods at lettermail rates game. The current situation is an absolute mess, a country can pay a terminal due that is supposed to represent the cost of forwarding a letter (a process which is largely automated) and send 2kg worth of goods which requires more cost and handling to deliver. The net result is this is Canadians have to pay more for their mailing to shore up their losses.
Here is a good comparison that illustrates this issue. Canada Post and USPS both utilize the Post Expres program for sending parcels internationally that require delivery confirmation. This program has terminal dues that are reflective of the cost of parcel delivery. I'm not privy to what either pays as terminal dues but given how they are classified by the UPU their terminal dues should not be too dissimilar, certainly not enough to justify the difference in pricing. Canada Post rebrands Post Expres as Tracked Packet International and USPS as First Class Package international. The price comparison below has been adjusted for the average USD to CAD exchange rate for 2017 (1.3239 based on the BOC rates). Note that there is some variance as the grams/ounces weight brackets don't exactly line up the same for both countries (ie in one weight bracket Canada Post allows up to 2.2lb where as the US allows up to 2lb before the next rate), but for our purposes they allow sufficient comparison. Canada Post prices are solutions for small business rates, USPS prices are commercial base prices available through postal resellers such as stamps/endicia/etc, ebay rates are a bit lower.
Up to 250g CP - $35.58 USPS - $16.99
Over 250g up to 500g CP - $45.98 USPS - $28.30
Over 500g up to 1kg CP - $56.31 USPS - $28.30
Over 1kg up to 1.5kg CP - $62.50 USPS - $43.40
Over 1.5kg up to 2kg CP - $69.41 USPS - $62.26
In order for the playing field to be levelled, terminal dues need to be set realistically, which is one of the intended outcomes of the UPU's changes. Canada Post is not unique in losing money on inbound international packages. I would however argue Canada Post has backed itself into a poor position. Domestic mailing volumes are low relative to other countries with better rate structures. In order to compete with the likes of UPS and shore up domestic volumes they are giving away the farm on contract rates to large retailers while fleecing the public. The spirit of the UPU changes are heading in the right direction, but it remains to be seen how this plays out in terms of available services and pricing as that is left to the member countries to implement at their discretion as the above example shows.
08-03-2017 06:27 PM
@dutchman48 wrote:Oh, and how long do you think the morons at Ebay Canada will keep their heads in the sand.
Every time postal rates go up, the Ebay FVF's go up, Paypal fees go up, and the taxes go up.
Eventually, sellers will leave and less will come in and postal income decreases, Ebay fees decrease, Paypal fees will decrease, and taxes will decrease.
That is such a wonderful business plan and so useful for the small sellers and Ebay..
Oh, I forgot, the small sellers are not wanted by Ebay.
I don't think ebay can do much more about it looking at things objectively. Ebay is one of a (very) small number of accounts that lead to the creation of Light Packet. EBay's USPS first class package international offer better discounts than other readily available options. Ebay continues to lobby for high de minimus exemption limits as well as pushing back on other attempts to tax international imports. It is in their interest to lobby and negotiate for better services and rates. Ebay Canada hasn't commented publicly on why light packet is no longer offered but they did offer additional small packet discounts, so there is that as well.
As imperfect as things are here I think the root of the problem lies elsewhere, specifically the broken system of how countries compensate each other to deliver mail. That ultimately controls the pricing.
08-03-2017 06:41 PM
When the supermarket does it, it's called a loss leader. Advertise a lower price for domestic mail than your actual cost and make it up on the products sold at the aisle caps.
That most of the domestic mail is personal (eBay sellers aside) and most of the international is commercial and/or subsidized by the receiving country* is part of the reason the postal service can do it.
From their business point of view, the bottom line covers all their costs, and leaves a profit (most years) to turn over to the general coffers.
Which is their mandate.
*which is what the current kerfuffle with China is about.
08-03-2017 07:01 PM - edited 08-03-2017 07:01 PM
Two comments.
Canada Post is not a supermarket. They sell a fes\w different products, no thousands. The only one getting the shat is the small consumer that really does not have a choice.
If stamp and card sellers had to send everything internationally by light packet or small packet, how long do you think they would survive paying Canada Post those rates instead of using letter mail?
08-03-2017 07:03 PM
@dutchman48 wrote:.... If stamp and card sellers had to send everything internationally by light packet or small packet, how long do you think they would survive paying Canada Post those rates instead of using letter mail?
Uh, as long as the rest of us who pay Canada Post parcel rates for 85 per cent of our product lines?
08-03-2017 07:05 PM
I'm sorry but I cannot join those of you who are getting worked up about this so I'm dropping from the discussion and turning off notifications for this thread. See y'all later. Another time, another place.
08-03-2017 07:11 PM
Not really sure who you think is getting worked up, but you sound as if you are.
I certainly am not and I haven't noticed any one else getting worked up.
Questions are being asked, information is being provided, and some questions are getting answered.
08-03-2017 07:14 PM
@mjwl2006 wrote:
@dutchman48 wrote:.... If stamp and card sellers had to send everything internationally by light packet or small packet, how long do you think they would survive paying Canada Post those rates instead of using letter mail?
Uh, as long as the rest of us who pay Canada Post parcel rates for 85 per cent of our product lines?
mjwl2006 has a fair point here. Whether you sell products with a lower average selling price or smaller items of a moderate value which have to go via parcel rates you face equally challenging scenarios unless you can key in on some exclusive or difficult to find items. Finding a workable product/logistics model is one of the tougher things facing small sellers here in Canada.
08-03-2017 07:27 PM - edited 08-03-2017 07:29 PM
@hlmacdon wrote:
@mjwl2006 wrote:
@dutchman48 wrote:.... If stamp and card sellers had to send everything internationally by light packet or small packet, how long do you think they would survive paying Canada Post those rates instead of using letter mail?
Uh, as long as the rest of us who pay Canada Post parcel rates for 85 per cent of our product lines?
mjwl2006 has a fair point here. Whether you sell products with a lower average selling price or smaller items of a moderate value which have to go via parcel rates you face equally challenging scenarios unless you can key in on some exclusive or difficult to find items. Finding a workable product/logistics model is one of the tougher things facing small sellers here in Canada.
I don't think any one disputed that or disagreed with what she said at all.
I asked that generic question to show if Canada Post does what it says it will do, it is going to kill a lot of small businesses in this country.
08-04-2017 02:44 AM - edited 08-04-2017 02:45 AM
dutchman48 wrote:
.... If stamp and card sellers had to send everything internationally by light packet or small packet, how long do you think they would survive paying Canada Post those rates instead of using letter mail?
I'm going to echo pierrelebel here and point out that professional stamp dealers may offer Free Shipping, but some stamps we sell are worth tracking.
DH picked up a stamp last month that involved him taking an international flight and hand carrying it across the border . Yes, it was declared and GST paid.
The auction catalogue will be out pretty soon - so if you want one of these
it's time to remortgage your house.
On a very practical note, stamp dealers have an endless supply of discount priced mint stamps which can be used to pay for tracked services.
08-04-2017 08:52 AM
@femmefan1946 wrote:@dutchman48 wrote:
.... If stamp and card sellers had to send everything internationally by light packet or small packet, how long do you think they would survive paying Canada Post those rates instead of using letter mail?
I'm going to echo pierrelebel here and point out that professional stamp dealers may offer Free Shipping, but some stamps we sell are worth tracking.
DH picked up a stamp last month that involved him taking an international flight and hand carrying it across the border . Yes, it was declared and GST paid.
The auction catalogue will be out pretty soon - so if you want one of these
it's time to remortgage your house.
On a very practical note, stamp dealers have an endless supply of discount priced mint stamps which can be used to pay for tracked services.
Very nice stamp!
08-04-2017 10:54 AM
@hlmacdon wrote:
@pjcdn2005 wrote:I could be mistaken but I believe hlmacdon's post said that it was going to be a upu regulation, not that it was current. USPS first class lettermail does have some size, shape and other restrictions but I don't see anything about the contents having to be non goods. Their oversize lettermail (large envelope) seems to have very similar rules between domestic and international services unlike our oversize lettermail.
That is correct, the UPU changes regarding the separation of services that contain physical goods vs documents come into effect for 2018.
Thanks for this. This is what I recalled, and why I'm reluctant to switch to lettermail for sending my lower-priced, smaller and lightweight items. It may have been a good option for years in the past for many sellers, but I expect postal services are trying to make their products more consistent around the globe as online selling increases. No doubt cracking down on commercial items sent via "stealth" lettermail will help increase postal agencies' revenue, when all online sellers are more or less obliged to use parcel services.
I think 'dutchman' is right that this trend will lead to the demise of many online sellers listing small items of low value.
I can't stay around today (I'm working on a project with a deadline), but thank you everyone for the responses. I guess I'll stop searching for Waldo.
This actually turned into a very interesting discussion. (BTW, I find the most interesting threads are not the ones where everybody agrees with each other -- a little debate is good!).
08-04-2017 10:59 AM
@reallynicestamps wrote:
I recently realized that the PO will accept Parcels that have been stamped rather than labelled. The only problem is getting enough stamps on some of the smaller parcels.
LOL -- this reminded me of pierrelebel's post once showing a parcel he prepared with seemingly hundreds of $0.01 or small denomination stamps overlapped all over the face of the package.
I don't have time to find the post now, but I thought it was a hoot. I wondered how much time he spent sorting, licking and neatly overlapping all those stamps (and how many postal officials would want to bother trying to count them all to see if the postage was correct -- ahh, just let it through). Maybe one way to beat the system??
08-04-2017 11:18 AM
@dutchman48 wrote:Oh, and how long do you think the morons at Ebay Canada will keep their heads in the sand.
Every time postal rates go up, the Ebay FVF's go up, Paypal fees go up, and the taxes go up.
Eventually, sellers will leave and less will come in and postal income decreases, Ebay fees decrease, Paypal fees will decrease, and taxes will decrease.
That is such a wonderful business plan and so useful for the small sellers and Ebay..
Oh, I forgot, the small sellers are not wanted by Ebay.
Yes, eBay's focus (and policy direction) is now on its bigger commercial sellers, especially those in the U.S. who have a large captive domestic market with reasonable postal rates available to them (and more alternatives as well). That's just the reality of the current state of affairs.
If you can continue to survive as a smaller seller, you're in luck, but eBay is shifting and won't be tailoring its future to its traditional type of seller. Why would eBay want to continue to cater to its millions of small, non-professional sellers who cause most of its problems and use up its customer service time when it can get the same revenue from big retailers with far less trouble? No, we're the ones that the rules and restrictions are written for.
There was a report recently that even Sears will be shifting over to one of the big online sites (I don't recall whether it was Amazon or eBay) when it divests itself of its brick-and-mortar stores. You can only imagine the kind of terms they'll get from whichever site they choose.
I think 'hlmacdon' made an important point in saying that commercial sellers have access to shipping options we smaller sellers would give our eye teeth for. But I also expect that eBay likely makes very favourable selling arrangements with its larger sellers. I don't believe for a minute that the more prominent sellers on this site are twisting in the wind with every policy change.
All in all, a far more advantageous position on every side if you're big enough.
So now I really do have to exit stage left...
08-04-2017 01:41 PM
Canada #3 the Twelvepenny Black.
That is a Google image, not the actual stamp, which went directly to Ottawa without a stopover here in Victoria.
The CBSA agents were impressed. They had never seen so much value in such a small item.
It will be in Sparks Auctions in September, along with some examples of #1 and #2.
Start saving!